Dancersdad

BankruptMum, Very well said. Those with positive experiences may well criticise you and those with negative experiences may well say you haven't gone far enough. Having been there and nearly at the end I will add, go into vocational schools with your eyes open. Know your rights and what the people funding the experience expect as an absolute minimum. Insist the schools meet those minimum requirements. Do not feel obliged to keep quiet because you are grateful your child is in an elite vocational school because they are exceptionally talented. Talent and the ability to pay fees should never ever be confused. Be involved intimately in your child's progress within the school, even if they ask you not to be. Tell them to fund their own schooling if they don't want you to be involved. You are making HUGE personal sacrifices for their future and you are not putting conditions on them for it other than you want them to enjoy dancing. You love them absolutely unconditionally - you will be surprised just how many dancers need this on a daily basis from people they think really care.

DS started with a dance teacher who danced professionally in small companies before taking over her mother's business. I feel this experience allowed her to convey to her "small town" pupils just how hard dance can be and certainly she has had many pupils go on to "low level" dance careers. However I don't believe she had what it took to get her pupils to hit the "big time". DS was her first pupil to be accepted to one of the Big Four and I believe her grounding made that possible. The quantum leap to the Big Time I believe was stimulated by initially the EYB experience (Miss Lewis was a Principle Dancer with RB) and getting additional training through the Leicestershire Arts in Education programme run by former RB Principle Dancer, Graham Fletcher. He was awesome. He expected perfection, but the harshest words he ever said were "you know you can do better than that". So yes I believe having had professional experience is essential, and the higher that level the more the teacher understands how to teach the difficult techniques constructively having been exposed to the very best choreographers who expect perfection.

At present the Law in the UK does not have many teeth to prevent internet "trolls" (those who deliberately go out of their way to be unpleasant), however a recent High Court ruling forced Facebook to reveal the details of trolls who made a woman's life perfectly unbearable setting a precedent that the Government is now going to put into Law. So far the comments are definitely not defamatory as they related to factual experiences. They only become defamatory if they are based on lies and half truths. Remember the Human Rights Act allows you to form and hold an opinion which is all I really see being expressed here. No, the comments are not very complimentary to Tring or Rachel Rist, but I am certain they can be backed up by factual evidence to support what is being said. I know I certainly would be able to provide that factual evidence for every comment made just based on DS's experience there and much, much more

Do it. She may be lucky and get the funding, but if she does get a place it is solid confirmation that she is very talented and it is worth looking for other options. I just wish there were more parents who made this clear to their children

I don't think it really matters. Early auditions means you can audition for more schools. Please do not think that auditioning for a number of schools will affect your chances. I think they all almost expect you to do so. We were certainly made to feel a little odd in that we only auditioned for one. Please, please, please if you are going to need to rely on funding to pay for the school, please make sure that that DC fully understands that actually going to the school is dependent on them getting the funding. No funding means you are not going. There is very little funding available and unrealistically raising DC's hopes and then having to shatter them at the last minute is not fair on them or you. Just because you can't afford to pay the very high school fees does not mean your DC isn't really talented. They are and being offered a place confirms just how talented they really are and it is worth trying to invest in that talent. At our funding audition we met a lad who had been accepted by Tring and Elmhurst for three years in a row before finally getting a Tring MDS. His mother had made it quite clear that without funding he couldn't go and was quite happy in that knowledge hoping this year would be different. It was and he was over the moon to finally go. to Tring. I certainly think his mum was a lot fairer than those who audition with no idea on how to pay for it if successful. Because you have a talented child does not mean the world owes you a funded place. Just like everything else in life you have to work hard for what you really want. Edit - fingers are failing me today!

Hi FairyToes Generally speaking for Dance funding you will have had to have been resident in the UK for 3 years prior to applying for it. This may be different if your children are UK passport holders, but I would image it would still be difficult. Typo edit-

Jane, I quite agree with you, but remember that those comments about Tring come from people who have sent their children there. Goes back to the happy parents importance of chosing a school. Make no mistake the happy "family" attitude that exists between the pupils at Tring is not seen in many other places and really makes the school a special place to be where pupils realise while still at school that school days are the best days of your life. Too many of us never realise that until it is too late to enjoy them. DS believes the quality of the training is outstanding and I agree. However, the complaints that have been made here seem to be directed at management and even at the division between management and staff. My personal experience of not only vocational schools, but of many private and public sector schools is the quality of the management team dictates just how good the school actually is. My advice to parents going to Tring in September is to stay involved in your child's training and as soon as any concerns arise bring them up immediately with the relevant people at the school. Don't ever feel you have to stay quiet if you are unhappy because you are just pleased your child has a place at the school. Considering our Tring "experience" I can vouch they will not throw your child out because you are unhappy. HFBrew, sometimes, like we were, you get stuck financially at a school. Remember a DaDA is not transferable so if you are unhappy you can get faced with sticking it out or stopping vocational training altogether because you cannot afford to go elsewhere. Also the schools are quick to point out their term's notice period and having to pay the full fees for it if even it is not attended, but they neglect to tell you that DaDA specifically bars them from claiming notice fees.

To be honest most people in the "outside world" only know about RBS because of Billy Elliot and a lot of young dancer's parents are in exactly the same boat when the possibility of vocational schools first gets thought of. As a current Tring parent I am more than happy to see Tring ranked last by those brave enough to put their heads above the parapet. Goes back to my first post about happy parents and level of care. Thank goodness our Tring "experience" ends in 18 days time.

DaDAs are specifically not allowed to pay for A-levels or other Diplomas, so if Tring or any other DaDA schools offer them take it as you are getting something for nothing. You cannot be forced to do A-levels if you are in receipt of a DaDA, however at Tring I know that you will not get the required minimum 1000 hours Diploma studies that are required by Trinity, because for the first 2 years the mornings are given over to academic and other diploma studies, so you will be pretty bored if you don't take other studies.

I also think you should add into that how happy the parents are. Happy children are not always an indication of how good the care provided actually is.

MDS is only available at RBS, Tring, Elmhurst, Hammond and CATS (which are not full time vocational training). DaDA recipients MUST study the Trinity National Diploma in Professional Dance or Musical Theatre (as far as dancers go but there are others for acting and theatre management) and so the schools are limited to those accredited by both Trinity and YPLA who actually fund the DaDA with September 2012 being the last guaranteed fully funded Diploma. Have a look at the Trinity College London site for a list of accredited schools some of which are not accredited DaDA schools. ENBS is a Trinity and DaDA accredited school. RBS, BRIT (free) and BOA Academy (part of BRIT and so also free) offer BTEC National Diploma in Professional Dance Have a look at http://www.ballettrust.org.uk under Vocational schools, Post 16 for a non exhaustive list of schools and some information about them and the courses they offer.

We were EYB "tarts" for 5 years living in the heart of the Midlands and chasing our closest productions from Nottingham (twice) to Stoke to Dunstable and Bromley by special invitation. I have a feeling DS might have been in the same Copelia production in 2009, Gingerbread, if it was the Dunstable one. We certainly would not have done that kind of travelling if we didn't think it was worth every penny of it. Most certainly everyone does not get in, although the uninitiated eye might ask why some dancers got in. Every single one of those dancers that we wondered about improved amazingly between audition and final show which shows the EYB team can spot and exploit potential that others can't see. If as in the case of our last one at Bromley there was not enough local talent of sufficient standard Miss Lewis goes outside the local area to invite known dancers in to suppliment what she has rather than compromise the standard. The dancers involved work incredibly hard during the reheasal stage, but come out of a day's sessions bouncing off the walls in excitement leading Dominic Marshal to frequently apologise to parents for over excited offspring. As Pintsizeballet says the awful feeling when it ends lasts about a week, but every time DS took part the dancers organised to meet a couple of weeks later and had a great day together again. As parents we have made many friends and DS still has many friends he has met up and down the country.

Before deciding A levels are a must have "back up" plan please have a very close look at what is on offer. Central and some others offer foundation degrees. This is a BA degree and it better than A level in terms of UCAS points to get into University. All the National Diploma courses are NVQ6 diplomas which are the equivalent to an Honours degree which certainly trumps A levels in the UCAS points stakes. Middlesex will turn this into an actual Honours degree in Professional Performance after a year dissertaion on work experience in that year. If your child has a DaDA technically they are not allowed to do A levels or other diplomas and technically they will not have the time if the full curriculum time of a minimum of 1000 per year is applied (rehearsal and performances do not count as hours within this 1000 hours minimum requirement). Looking at the criteria to pass these Diplomas you either have to not hand in written work of a sufficient standard or have 2 left feet not to pass - or rather if your dancing is not of a standard where you can pass the practical dancing part of the course, you are never going to get into a vocational school. RBS, Brit School and BOA academy offer a BTEC diploma which is the equvalent of 3 A levels. At the age of 24 and older your child can enter University as a mature student without any A levels or proof of earlier education (my wife and I certainly weren't asked when we studied for a BA Hons Business Studies. I didn't show my South African University entrance qualification and my wife had one O level in Art but wasn't asked to prove it). I have got to ask what people who are not sure about what they want to do in life are actually doing at a vocational school, apart from taking a valuable place away from somebody who is sure. £10 - 30 000 a year is a heck of a lot of "not sure". I would ask my child to sit down and have a very careful think about what they really want to do before I spent that kind of money. I also don't understand the obsession with the A level piece of paper. It's only value is to enter University. In the real world it is not going to get you a job as kids with vocational qualifications are going to be at the head of the line in any industry - especially dance. The diplomas offered at all the vocational schools out trump A levels in getting into University if you really believe that you need a University degree to get a dance job. Personally I have never heard of a casting director asking for your piece of paper before offering you a job. The only value it might have is getting you into a closed audition, but most times they watch you dance and if they like what they see they offer you a job. The "piece of paper" might get you more money, but probably not. So what about when your career ends? By then you should have an idea of what you really want to do with the rest of your life and if it is still in the dance industry do you really need more qualifications than your career and vocational diploma (and possibly RAD qualifications to teach)? If you want to go outside the Dance industry that is the time to go to Uni as a mature student or study through the Open University while working and really do the degree that is going to help you. I know the biggest argument is the "back up plan" but a very good friend of mine was involved in some Australian University research into artists who had the "back up plan" and those who didn't. The result was almost overwhelming in that those who had the back up plan were most likely to fail in what they wanted to do, while those who didn't were most likely to succeed. The hypothesis was that without the back up plan the subjects were more driven to succeed as failure was not an option, while the subjects with a back up plan knew they had a safety net. A bit harsh I know, but DS knows his safety net lies in parental units that will always be there for him.

AmelieMum don't get too disappointed about it. DS auditioned for JA's and was short listed one year and rejected the next (he wasn't allowed to go out of the audition to get water so dehydrated and developed a headache that kept him from concentrating). He went on to getting an MDS and DaDA at Tring.

Just when I didn't think it could get any worse, I have just had a long chat with him and his final Dance Show pieces have been reduced from 4 to 1. Mother, who is flying out from South Africa to come and watch Dance Show and graduation, is fuming. Won't have to switch the heating on tonight (it's midwinter here). He is also upset because he just found out his best friend and a couple of other kids got offered a place in the Olympics Opening and Closing Ceremonies quite some time ago and the school effectively stopped them from doing it. Kitschqueen, I am also amazed at his strength of character considering everything he has gone through at the school. Suffice to say Legal action was uppermost in our minds at the worst of those times. I was looking back at the correspondence of the time a few weeks back and quite frankly am amazed we didn't go through with it. Being one of the very few in his year to have a job lined up has given him the strength to fight back and point out that he has a life post school as a Costa dancer whereas their favourites are facing being Costa baristas.

Pas de Quatre the most frustrating thing was hearing several former Principle Dancers from the Royal Ballet and other world class companies say how incredibly talented he was during the holidays and then have the love of dance knocked out of him within a couple of weeks of returning to school. His participation in the showcase dance shows have been limited to under 3 minutes total in a 2 hour show. He has never been allowed to do pas de deaux performances despite all the girls preferring to dance with him as they feel safe with him (he has only dropped one girl but managed to get underneath her to break her fall - we have witnessed him to hold onto a girl whose heel inadvertently caught him where no man wants to be caught and lowered her gracefully to the floor before collapsing). Oh well in 3 weeks it is all over and he can dance for people who appreciate his talent and want him to dance for them and their audiences.

Not all auditions have to be expensive. DS attended several "cattle calls" in London before landing a cruise ship contract. I suppose adding up all the train journeys and meals in London the total cost might have been quite high. A number of Ballet companies will also allow Video first auditions (the South Africa Ballet Theatre certainly does) so at least you know that if you do spend a lot of money to go to them they are interested in you before you journey out.

Now for a very little known fact about DaDAs. If a student gives up a DaDA by leaving the school for any reason they do not have to give any notice and the school may not charge the leaving student for the notice period except for one very specific reason. The reason being is that the school has already been paid the money for the schooling up front and they must offer the DaDA to another pupil within the same year. Only if the DaDA is not accepted by any other student may the school then charge for the notice period (fat chance of that ever happing). We only learnt this too late. Completely disallusioned with the school in the first term, we took DS to Central to join in a class to see if he really did have talent or we were just being delusional parents in imagining talent that wasn't there. Central's response was to offer him an immediate place without any further audition. Asking them about a comment that had been made a few years beforehand by his teacher, Graham Fletcher, that "with a lot of hard work he could make the Prix de Lausanne" their response was "without a shadow of doubt".Thinking we would have had to pay a full term's notice of over £9000 or he would have to go through the whole second term before moving (too late to catch up 2 terms work at Central) we very regretfully turned the place down. Central immediately offered him a place in the next academic year without having to go through the audition process. Question answered. DS was definitely very talented and that talent was not being recognised by school if a school like Central were that desperate to get him into their school. In researching DaDAs more fully for the Ballet Trust site I came across one of the conditions for the schools that stated emphatically they were not permitted to charge a notice period fee to a student who left in the middle of a year for any reason unless they had offered the DaDA to other students in the year AND it had been turned down by all of them. Hopefully armed with this snippet of information future parents won't make the mistake we did.

Tring do have someone to help with getting auditions and contracts and very general advice, but I think reading through legal documents and fully understanding the implications is beyond them, as it is for the very vast majority of people. I fortunately did Business and Employment Law as part of my Business Studies degree and had a Dad who was a top lawyer so it sort of comes naturally to me. Good advice:- Join Equity. DS was able to get good solid legal advice for free from people properly qualified to give that advice which was it wasn't lawful in England but unknown in Italy, as well as an offer to help see what could be done about the situation, which reading between the lines sounded like being able to help in someway to getting the money to do the course.

I sometimes wonder how full fee paying parents at the vocational schools manage. Tring 6th form is over £30 000 per year without the extras! Reminds me of DS's start of second term when he phoned to ask how he dealt with everyone else going on exotic holidays over Christmas. I told him to be honest and say he just chilled with his Dad. Learning to fish, walking the dog in the park and woods, flying kites together, etc. It worked as he called back 10 minutes later to say the first kid had gone bright green with envy. Apparently flying down a mountainside in the Alps with two planks of wood strapped to your feet is not as attractive as it seems when compared to the simple pleasures of life and spending real time with your Dad.

HFBrew, had a chat to DS about the students who have contracts. 3 are with Ballet Theatre UK and were not on the 3 year Diploma course so left Tring at the end of last year. 1 is with the Cape Town Ballet who was on the 3 year Diploma course and is working already and then DS, so although the year group from last year has 5 in employment only 2 of the 3 year Diploma group have got jobs already.

The new requirement is for all crew members boarding a Costa ship and is as a direct result of the Concordia and Allegra mishaps.

Thanks DM, have replied. The contract is directly with Costa's holding company and is covered by Italian Law. It could be considered as a "start up cost" but it will not be useful for any other job. The contract unfiortunately has a probation period where they can dismiss for "any or no reason" so I guess they have a cheap way out even if they were forced to pay for the training. Hopefully a small family Trust fund he has access to can help out, but I don't know if they can liquidate that much money that quickly (adverse exchange rate makes it very expensive in the Trust's eyes)

Spannerandpony yes he was part of the "Dancers Company" and will be in the Queen number in Dance Show. HFbrew he hasn't mentioned other people getting contracts, but that would be good news. I fear though that the other 1 I am talking about is included as part of the 4 you are talking about. One of the conditions of a school offering a DaDA are that the recipents must be in a full time job or represented by an agent within 6 months of finishing the course. It places an enormous amount of pressure on the school so I would expect to see more students getting jobs in the near future. Thanks for your good wishes. Unfortunately the contract is looking to be in jeopardy after Costa introduced a requirement to attend a £900 Basic Safety course before being allowed to board ship. This must be done at the dancer's expense despite it not being a contractual requirement when the contract was signed and making the change is specifically excluded in the contract. Equity believe that in England the company would be forced to pay for the training, but the contract is within Italian jurisdiction. Does any one know an Italian lawyer we can get an opion from?

Actually all of the vocational schools are registered Charities and their accounts can be checked on the Charities Commission website as Nana Lilly points out (didn't see her contribution when posting this). They are usually not allowed to retain any profits unless specific permission has been granted by the Charities Commission and they have to ringfenced for a specific project ie the upgrade of facilities at Tring. To be a registered charity they have to provide some public benefit and this has to be declared to the Charities Commission (one of the schools, I can't remember which, at one point actually declared their MDS pupils as pupils benefitting from from reduced cost education, which I thought a bit rich using Government money to secure your Charitable status!). Dame Suzi Leather the Chair of the Charities Commission "declared war" on private schools registered as charities shortly after taking office saying they had to be more proactive about opening their education to the less privileged and showing more of a community benefit, which why there has been a marked upturn in outreach programmes and use of facilities by outside organisations. I see Tring are now trying to boost their Bursary Fund to help more people who cannot afford to go to Tring - another funding area opening up. Tring's Trust is called AES Tring Park School Trust registered No. 1040330 and shows Income of £6.4M and expenditure of £6.2M edit to add Tring's details.