Tinkerbell05 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hello, I am new to this forum, and I am looking for some advice really regarding my daughter. Having never danced myself I am in a position as to not knowing what to do for the best. My daughter is 8 years old. She competes regularly at festivals and has won medals at the national finals /holds national titles etc so takes it all very seriously! Her ballet teacher suggested she should apply to JA programme and is very keen for her to do this. I then spoke to the school principal, who basically has said if she is prepared to say goodbye to festivals, other competitions and may have to miss some exams due to lack of attendance on a Saturday then fine. She feels that other children that have gone down this route have gone down hill once they have been on the programme, that the teachers aren't RBS teachers but outside ones, and that their performance level was not the same again. She feels that RBS make you commit to them being the most important focus and that the school commitments will become secondary. My daughter (seems to be) very good at ballet but is also doing well in tap, modern and commercial. At 8 she doesn't know whether she wants to go down the classical route and give everything else up, but at the same time I don't want her to ever have regrets not trying JA's! Is it possible to do both? Any advice/opinions gratefully received! I understand with her ballet teacher being an ex professional ballerina she would encourage this route, I also understand not being able to commit to Saturdays at the school for rehearsals etc but seems unfair to ask an 8 year old make such a big decision or is this normal in the dance world?! Thanks in advance for any help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Considering that the chances of getting a JA place are low why not audition for the lovely experience anyway? If by merest chance your dd gets a place then you can make decisions then. Plenty of lucky students do indeed manage to commit to associate schemes, festivals, exams etc all at once although it takes super duper planning and fortitude. I wouldnt expect my students to miss out on good associate schemes such as RBS for the sake of a few rehearsals. But it depends on the.situation. For example if a student is letting peers down by non attendance to say rehearsals for a group dance then obviously its best not to commit to that group anyway. And as for students "going downhill" as JAs, well that depends again to how a student responds to the scheme. Its meant to supplement existing training and students are meant also to do the exercises given daily. However there will be some who substitute associates for their normal lessons and dont find alternatives. If they are not then following the exercises also then yes there wont be much benefit. On the positive side though there are hundreds of ex JAs who are now professionals. I am sure my own ds would not have got his WL place if it hadnt been for the excellent training and experiences as a JA. That was over 10 years now and he is now professional as are many others who were fellow associates. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumToTu Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hi, what a dilemma your dd sounds very talented you must be proud, why not apply anyway and see what she thinks at the audition? Are there any other associate programmes near to you that don't clash with her regular dance classes and competitions, that are maybe on a Sunday? I've been reading on here about the english youth ballet programme also, which sounds amazing. Speaking from my dds limited experience we applied last year for a year 5 place, not knowing what to expect and she now loves her JA class. She doesn't dance competitively, but does participate in competitive gymnastics, she had to make a bit of a choice a year ago, many hours of gymnastics, or maybe a slightly less intensive gymnastics programme and ballet which she opted for and it's worked out best for her, she knows the career of a competitive gymnast is very short and wants explore the possibility of a career as a classical dancer at this point in time. However, she does seem to be surprising us and excelling at the less intensive gymnastics programme better than we thought, but that's another story. Maybe there is a slightly less intensive competitive dance route your daughter could opt for if she accepted a place? The associate programmes have been an amazing experience so far for my dd so far and she is really enjoying them. Taking my dd to see the ballet is what really inspired her, is it something she may want to explore do as a professional career? If it is I would apply! Making the decisions the hardest part, let your dd follow her heart. Good luck and hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 That does sound tricky. I can understand where the Principal is coming from if JAs would clash with the majority of lessons at your dance school. But our experience at JAs was that while it is a serious commitment most people managed to continue other dance commitments. I think it would be helpful to speak to both teachers together. It would be better if they were singing from the same hymn sheet!! Also, 8 is still young and I don't think delaying the application decision by a year would damage any future chances. Both the dc who got into WL in my dd JA class only started JAs in Year 6 and many of the others had been there since Y4. Personally (and many will disagree) I think there is a risk in applying if you're not 100% certain. It is easy to get sucked in when accepted and you may find yourself going down a path which isn't actually best for your child. It is hard to take your child to an audition and then expect them to understand why you decline a place. Good luck! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerbell05 Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Thank you all so much for your advice. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. I think that I need to think this through some more. I do think the audition experience would be fantastic for her, but also understand that she needs to be sure this is the path she wants to go down. She would only miss one regular class the rest would be troupes etc and I think the principals feeling is if she isn't there she can't be in troupes (which I understand) but then also feels that if a festival clashes with JA class my loyalty will be to the class and therefore it's best to stop competing all together - which I feel is a little harsh if I am honest. I thought JA's were supposed to complement her normal classes and guess I wanted to know if this was normal. Lots to think about! X 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I wonder whether the principal has a bit of an axe to grind. Was she ever a professional ballerina? Has she ever got students into vocational (ballet) schools? Has she lost students to vocational or, worse, other local, schools? Does she feel intimidated by anything to do with the Royal Ballet School? Obviously, your DD can't be in two places at once and it is unfair on her peers to miss rehearsals for festivals if she dances in duets, groups but you will know when these rehearsals are generally scheduled and whether they will clash with any associate scheme which your DD is considering applying for (some are on Saturdays and some are on Sundays). Her assertion about associates going 'downhill' is almost certainly unfounded but she may have a point about associates losing their performance edge if they stop performing regularly because they are attending associate classes and become over preoccupied with technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerbell05 Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Aileen, thank you for your reply. I really appreciate your advice. I'm not quite sure, I do know she has had several students at Junior, Mid, and Senior level and she feels that their performance level went down once they started associates, none of whom now have continued with ballet as a career. Maybe that may have something to do with it? It's hard when you have two conflicting pieces advice from two teachers, and I myself know nothing about dance let alone the ballet world. Lots to think about - thanks you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Welcome to the forum Tinkerbell. Some great advice here. Two of my children were JAs - my eldest son's now a professional ballet dancer and my daughter's a very student - so their future's not set whatever happens. JA classes are a commitment but a wonderful opportunity. As others have said, there are far more children who audition than get places so you can leave the decision until\if it needs to be made Also bear in mind that not all JA classes are on Saturdays these days - some are Fridays and some Sundays. Worth checking. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Welcome to the forum, Tinkerbell5. I'm not sure if these have already happened or whether there are more coming up, but RBS does offer a "JA for a day" experience which might be worth investigating. They are pre-audition classes for those considering whether to apply for JAs. As has already been pointed out, the chances of getting into JAs is pretty slim and often they like children to reapply the following year. Before you commit to auditioning - or not - it might be an idea to see if there are any "JA for a day" experiences coming up for you and your dd to get an idea of the audition process. JAs and other Associates are absolutely designed to be complementary to local training, not instead of it. If your dd can do both, she would be getting excellent technique training at JAs as well as performance experience locally, even if she does have to sacrifice some troupe work. That said, if she auditions for JAs and is unsuccessful this time, it's certainly not the end of the road - she could try again next year or look at other associate schemes. If your dd's teacher has suggested it, I would certainly explore the option of JAs; a place won't mean that your dd has to decide upon a classical career right now :-) Edited to add that Julie and I were posting simultaneously! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy19 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Have you considering applying for Tring CBA, an assosciate scheme that runs on Sunday's, (6 per term). Perhaps the principal would be happier with a Sunday class? x 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonrothbart Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I know RBS has took a little flac of late, but I don't think for one minute JA classes would take a child backwards, and that goes for any of the other associate programmes. They will take them back to basics maybe, but that's a different thing altogether. If your daughter has won National Titles, then I'm sure she will have a wonderful chance of gaining a JA place, so as has been suggested I would let her audition, and see how you go. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneypenny Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Speaking purely from our own personal experience ... My dd was a JA for three years and then an MA before going off to vocational school. We felt so incredibly lucky that she had the opportunity and she loved every second of it. The training she received at those sessions has been invaluable and contributed hugely towards her development. She commented recently that she loved the way she was taught and the lovely clean style and technique. Both of her JA and MA associate teachers were excellent. Dd never did festivals, but has had plenty of other performance opportunities over the years. Personally, I don't think she has missed out by not doing festivals, but I believe she gained so much from those associate classes. Dd and many of her JA peers are still in full-time training. RBS associates was special and I still miss it. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerbell05 Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Thank you all so much. I will certainly keep you all posted! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petalviolet Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hi there! I'm also a newbie and my DD will be applying for the first time this year. I think your daughter must have so much potential and commitment it would be a shame for her not to at least apply? It might open her eyes and yours to a totally new side of ballet, not just the focus on beautiful pure technique but to be part of such history and tradition would be a unique opportunity and could really inspire her? You don't need to make any decisions yet and who knows where each childs particular dance journey leads but the last thing you would want is to have any regrets that any avenue went unexplored. Seize the opportunity that what I say and the very best of luck to you both! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boysanddogs Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 My child is on their first year as a JA and yes whilst they have had to give up the comps and festivals, the additonal committment of exercises and travelling and danciing every Saturday etc, they have not gone 'backwards' in fact I think its just the opposite. It depends what they want to do, where they want to take it. I think the audition experience is valuable as well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonrothbart Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I'm a little puzzled, why would they have to give up festivals by being an associate? Our dc has been a JA and is now a MA since being old enough, but she still does the festivals with her local dance school, and absolutely loves it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pups_mum Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I guess it depends on the particular timetables,but there have been numerous students from the school my DD attends who have been RBS associates and they have all maintained full participation in the school. I agree that being in troupes etc could be a problem if you cannot commit fully to all rehearsals and performances but I can't see any reason to give up solos at festivals unless you want to. It doesn't affect anyone except yourself if you can't do every festival if you are only doing solos after all. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneypenny Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 For us, it was just that dd's dance school didn't participate in festivals, and I wouldn't have had the time to commit to them anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 My daughter carried on with festivals (she was in three groups and had a few solos). Our rehearsals were always on Sundays and we were lucky back then that the festivals we did would always put groups on Sundays because they understood that a lot of dancers had various associate classes on Saturdays. So then we just took our chance with solos. Only ever missed a couple if I remember rightly and some festivals would at least let them dance for a mark out of section is they had a good reason (like associates) for asking. When I ran a festival I would keep all the groups bar the 9 and unders on a Sunday, or later on a Saturday for the older ones. I also gave schools the opportunity to request days to avoid for associates, and although I didn't promise I could accommodate them, I usually did. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bestfootforward Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Hi Tinkerbell05 I read your post with interest and some frustration at the attitude of your school principal! My child is very much an all rounder, and attended a dance school where festivals and competitions are actively encouraged for those who want to participate, and associate classes are considered a welcome addition for those talented and committed enough. She was lucky enough to be accepted as a RBS JA and has really enjoyed her three years there. The very formalised training very much appealed to her perfectionist personality, and she loved the fact that she had been selected to be a small part of the RBS. The training she received there very much complimented the training she received at her local dance school, and both she and I made the best friendships which have stood the test of time. Whilst I would agree that many of the RBS associate teachers are not full time teachers at the RBS, all of them are carefully selected by the RBS with the same scrutiny as they select their full time staff. Many are ex ballerinas teaching elsewhere due to their geographical location- all deliver fundamentally similar training the RBS way. Let's face it, they have a reputation to uphold, and we all know how "picky" they are about student selection- why on earth would they not be the same about their staff? My daughter continued to do festivals and competitions throughout her JA days and this was actively encouraged by her JA teacher to a large extent. Right at the beginning we (and her local teacher) felt that it was important that she respected the wonderful opportunity she had been given, and the need to commit to it. With this in mind she no longer did solos or troupes as it would not have been fair to let others down. However she continued to do her solos (around 5 of them) and most of the time these would fall either in the evening after associates, or on a Sunday. As Julie has already stated, some of our festival organisers were very helpful and were happy to schedule certain age groups and genres accordingly with enough notice. On the off chance that her solos fell during associate class time, we would consider the situation carefully. Generally speaking we did not allow her to miss associates unless there were more than 2 dances on the same day, and even then she would not miss more than one class per term. This arrangement worked beautifully and I would say she probably missed a total of 3 classes in the three years that she did JAs and her attendance was considerably better than many of her fellow associates who didn't do festivals. As far as the festivals go, I firmly believe that they have an important role to play in the formative years of a young dance student. As other people have said, learning and performing solos from a young age encourages the development of stage presence and artistry. Confidence building is a huge advantage, and it also teaches the kids humility, comradeship and how to lose (and win) gracefully. These are all vital skills both in the dance world and in normal life. Our JA teacher valued this important aspect of dance training and would encourage the children to bring in their festival photos which they would look at in the mid- lesson break. Certainly exams were also regarded as important and as far as I can remember, none of the children missed out on taking exams or doing school shows because of associate classes. So I would say if your daughter loves her ballet encourage her to audition, keep a level head and at all costs don't write off the festivals etc. A workable compromise can be easily achieved, and I sincerely hope that your school principal is broad minded enough to embrace this if your daughter is lucky enough to be offered a JA place! 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerbell05 Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 Our principal feels that as an associate you have to commit to the Saturday classes and RBS and therefore you will be letting others down when a festival clashes on a Saturday. She feels that you will be committed to the JA scheme and that the school will become secondary. She says this is due to previous pupils being in this situation and it causes bad feeling at the school, and therefore is now saying it's one or the other. As an non dance mum it's hard to know what is best, her principal believes that performance experience in her opinion is more valuable. However her ballet teacher believes that associates will give her more valuable experience than festivals. I guess it's just a difference of opinion, but never having danced it's hard to know who is right. From the sounds of all the lovely advice I have received there is no right or wrong answer. I think maybe we audition and see where the path takes us! The chances of being accepted are very slim, and I know she will enjoy the whole experience so maybe we go with it and cross that bridge IF we get there I guess! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerbell05 Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 Thank you bestfootforward! I agree, I was quite taken aback when I received her email. I thought maybe this was "normal" however feel encouraged by all the responses I have had that show that there are a lot of children and parents that have managed to make the situation "workable" My daughter loves ballet, and i do believe that I, as her parent should give her every opportunity possible, auditioning for JA's being one of them. If she doesn't get in then nothing is lost, but she would have gained some valuable audition experience. If she did by chance get in then, I would try to make both work. If the principal is dead against it still then I guess that would be a whole new thread! Thank you to everyone for your comments. I feel very welcomed to your lovely forum.. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I agree with the comments suggesting that you should let your DD try for the JAs, even if it does mean giving up on the festivals. Not every child has the potential to even be put forward for an audition and given the limited number of places on the associates scheme, even fewer are lucky enough to gain a place. At the next age group up - MAs (mid associates) there are even fewer places and numbers are cut again for the seniors so even if your DD becomes a JA it is not necessarily a long term commitment, even if she loves it and wants it to be. Re festivals and missed exams etc - if it works out then great but I would be inclined not to rock the boat with the principal too much if that dance school is your preferred dance school in your area. DDs school does not do festivals but there have been some children do associates and miss the bulk of their classes at the school. They have all been able to keep doing 1 syllabus class a week but missed modern etc completely. None of them have got into MAs as far as I am aware but they have all been able to slot back into their modern & tap groups after 2-3 years away and within a few months have been back up to speed. Your DD is so young - she has plenty of time to get back into festivals if she stops doing them to do JAs. Whatever choice you make, as long as she is happy, is a good one - but remember she can pick up modern, festivals etc at any time. Associates schemes are only available for the lucky few. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumToTu Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Maybe her principal wants a 100 percent commitment to her school, especially with your dd being talented and winning national titles. We had a similar situation, my dd was told a year ago she has to commit completely to a path in elite gymnastics on route leading international competition, it involved many hours training and no other sports or dance allowed, she at 8 had won national competitions, it got exhausting for us although she enjoyed it. it sounds harsh but they explained to reach an elite level in any discipline you have to make a hundred percent commitment, I assume it maybe the same in competitive dance if you are right at the top? after all there is school to fit in as well! We made the hard choice to leave the club, as she wanted to continue in ballet and audition for JAs and do a different less intense gymnastics discipline (which she is not climbing as high a ladder in). You have to think what path is best for your dd. You must see why her principal may not want to have one of her best dancers unable to attend rehearsals etc, maybe she believes it would greatly effects any dancers performance and wants your dd to be her best? But are a few missed competitions worth more than an opportunity like being a JA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petalviolet Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 On a purely selfish note National champions..... Probably with trophies........shelves.....special ones...display cabinets...TROPHY ROOMS. .....only competition DD encountered so far is how to manage the lavish but unwanted attentions of our 18lb ragdoll cat whenever she does her pre bath stretches. We are both going to need our big girl pants. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Festivals are not the be-all and end-all. Once a dancer auditions for a school or college they are not going to ask how many national titles or medals or trophies etc etc etc you won. I agree the performance experience is important but it sounds to me as though the principal of your school doesn't like the idea of your DD getting a place at JA's because she won't then be able to go to as many competitions and win as many prizes - which ultimately affects her and her schools reputation. You should think about what is right for your DD in the long run. Personally I would always recommend going with the training opportunities offered over countless festivals - especially as often the 'over-festivalized' children (did I just make up a word then?!) have very stylised or 'affected' ways of dancing which vocational schools etc don't like to see anyway! Having said all that - there are plenty of people that make it work and manage both. If your current principal is so adamant that you commit to one or the other, Is there another local (good) school that you could take your DD to in order to do both? 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Festivals are not the be-all and end-all. Once a dancer auditions for a school or college they are not going to ask how many national titles or medals or trophies etc etc etc you won. I agree the performance experience is important but it sounds to me as though the principal of your school doesn't like the idea of your DD getting a place at JA's because she won't then be able to go to as many competitions and win as many prizes - which ultimately affects her and her schools reputation. You should think about what is right for your DD in the long run. Personally I would always recommend going with the training opportunities offered over countless festivals - especially as often the 'over-festivalized' children (did I just make up a word then?!) have very stylised or 'affected' ways of dancing which vocational schools etc don't like to see anyway! Having said all that - there are plenty of people that make it work and manage both. If your current principal is so adamant that you commit to one or the other, Is there another local (good) school that you could take your DD to in order to do both? Good points drdance. At an vocational schools (not RBS)insight day for teachers I attended many years ago the director said " we can always tell the festival children". Then went on to explain that whilst great experience, some students who do lots of festivals do end up over stylised and affected, traits not easily corrected. Edited February 6, 2015 by hfbrew 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletsister Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Bestfootforward can I ask if your daughter is still doing assiciates? I Know that the number of MAs is a lot less than JAs and was wondering what your experience was post JAs. My dd might audition for JAs this year (again!) but not sure if can face it all with only one year of JAs (as currently year 5) even if by some miracle she gets a place. I feel it might be a bit cruel to set her up for further disappointment only one year later. Apologies this is a bit off thread! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primrose Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 A lot of girls at my dds MA class continued with festivals. The opportunities that the children get at the RBS associates are wonderful. How many children get the opportunity of dancing in Covent Garden or in some cases the Royal Opera House with the RB company. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bestfootforward Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Balletsister In answer to your question she is now in her second year at vocational school but did audition for MAs and was offered a place, which of course she didn't take up. Had she not gone to vocational school she would have taken her MA place and continued with festivals ! We have friends who's daughter tried for JAs three times and finally got a place in year 6. She got a lot out of that one year and went on to be accepted at vocational ballet school in year 7 so keep on trying! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bestfootforward Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Balletsister In answer to your question she is now in her second year at vocational school but did audition for MAs and was offered a place, which of course she didn't take up. Had she not gone to vocational school she would have taken her MA place and continued with festivals ! We have friends who's daughter tried for JAs three times and finally got a place in year 6. She got a lot out of that one year and went on to be accepted at vocational ballet school in year 7 so keep on trying! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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