Simply Adult Ballet: the progress of one adult dancer who took up ballet later in life

[Michelle_Richer]

Ive seen a theatrical shop in Covent Garden in Shaftesbury Avenue I think it is. Perhaps you can hire one? Have no idea how expensive this would be though.

Otherwise the ballroom dancing scene might be worth investigating though I feel sure there will be somewhere in London which specialises in flamenco costumes etc. I will ask a friend who used to be into this but it was quite a few years ago now!!

Only problem with ballroom, it tends to be too long for ballet, at least this part. I know there is a shop in Drury lane that sells general dance wear a well as ballet, I may go a little earlier tomorrow and check it out and possible Shaftesbury Avenue. I've looked on line but those are either long dresses and long skirts and not what I'm looking for.

 

I think there may be a shop in Leeds, I go past one on the way to Northern which has various dresses and different coloured flared petticoats in the window that one might wear under a flamenco skirt. I will have to pop in on the 6th on my way to Northern and see.

 

 

Terpsichore

How many was there in the Choreography class when you was there, is the waltz the only piece you are dancing. Has anyone thought about the Finale to close the show and how that is being presented.

[Terpsichore]

.........................................

 

Terpsichore

How many was there in the Choreography class when you was there, is the waltz the only piece you are dancing. Has anyone thought about the Finale to close the show and how that is being presented.

 

I think there were 11 of us but it is important to remember that yesterday was the first day after a bank holiday. Annemarie expects several more candidates from the improvers' class and perhaps a few more from the beginners' class.   It was in that context that your name came up.

 

We did not discuss a finale. We had only 40 minutes and we spent all that time on appreciating the music and marking and rehearsing the choreography that Annemarie had prepared for us.

 

I never get a chance to say very much to Annemarie other than "good morning" and "thank you for the class" because there are always a lot of students who seek her attention.  The only conversation I had with her yesterday was about our pianist who is on maternity leave and that discussion took place while we were waiting for the lift. Annemarie gave us some news of the pianist and we asked Annemarie to give her our kind regards.

 

It is possible that Annemarie may give us some more information at the beginners' class tomorrow and if she does I will pass it on to you.

 

As I said before, I am very glad that you can take part in the show and I look forward to your next visit to Leeds. I also look forward to news of the other subscribers to this forum whom you see regularly, particularly LinMM whose acquaintance I hope to make in due course,

[taxi4ballet]

Only problem with ballroom, it tends to be too long for ballet, at least this part. I know there is a shop in Drury lane that sells general dance wear a well as ballet, I may go a little earlier tomorrow and check it out and possible Shaftesbury Avenue. I've looked on line but those are either long dresses and long skirts and not what I'm looking for.

 

Michelle, the last time we were in Dancia in Drury Lane  couple of weeks ago, I'm sure I remember seeing a flamenco costume.

[Michelle_Richer]

Yes that's the one I was thinking off, I will check them out tomorrow.

[Anon2]

Michelle. We used El Mundo Flamenco when we needed supplies last year. Very helpful staff. Very close to Danceworks. Sorry can't do a link at moment.

[Jan McNulty]

http://www.elmundoflamenco.co.uk/

[Anon2]

Thank you Janet.

[Michelle_Richer]

Thanks Jane, unfortunately the website only has on photo of the skirts they do, I guess I will just have to pay them a visit.

 

 

Fiz I wish you look with the splits, many of my classes do barre stretches, one does a sliding barre stretch which is like a diagonal splits. It can be painful if you get it wrong, I'm very careful now after pulling a muscle in a cold body balance class. I was told it would take 3 months to heal, that has just passed. Although I can go down pretty low in front splits but no quite to the floor, I can still feel the remains of an injury in my leg, so for the time being I wont push it. Doing Splits will also help you with your high leg extension which can be another measure of progress.

[Terpsichore]

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Terpsichore

How many was there in the Choreography class when you was there, is the waltz the only piece you are dancing. Has anyone thought about the Finale to close the show and how that is being presented.

 

I asked Annemarie about those matters at the beginners' class this morning and she said they were all in hand. I believe that she has been in contact with you by email.

[Michelle_Richer]

I visited both Dancia and El Mundo Flamenco but didn't see anything that would fit the bill. While I was in Battersea on called on a dress shop that sold party wear, they seem to think they could get one made but I couldn't get a price out of them, however I did take their contact details. So I guess I'm still looking, however I didn't manage to get to Shaftsbury Avenue this time.

 

Terpsichore:

I've had nothing back from Annemarie since her initial reply on Tuesday. Anyway I'm sure all will get revealed when I arrive on the 6th, rail fare is already booked, at least it will allow me to fine tune the logistics' as I'm hoping to trim at least 15 minutes off the start time at the Shoreditch Studio, with the knock on effect of preserving my half hour free studio time at ENB.

 

Lin

How did you get on with your first LAB session. We had a new guy start with us and three or four new girls too. For the first part of the rehearsals the newbies just watched, then Tom got them involve with one of the simpler scene's. Next week those of us that weren't there for term 1 and the newbies are being introduced to "Snowflakes". I had already asked him as that's something I had been working on outside LAB.

After class most of us disappeared down to a pub in Battersea as it was someone's birthday, that was really nice end to a wonderful evening, I just took a later train home.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Michelle_Richer

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin

 

I see we are all doing "Snowflake", but your group is down for the "Spanish Dance" and Candle section of "Kingdom of the Sweets". I'm not sure how much that group has completed, but snowflakes is an easy one to put the new dancers into, that's what's happening with our group. There is another one from term 1, I want to do, but I don't think Tom is ever so keen, its quite a long and tricky one, but I am learning that outside of LAB in case that opportunity shows itself.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin

 

Just another thought, all groups are doing the Nutcracker Finale. You should have the videos via Dropbox now, check out your Wednesday group Term2 "T2 Weds Week2b" video, I would expect you will be doing that piece as we introduced that to our newbies last week.

[LinMM]

I don't seem to be able tomget the Dropbox video to download properly. It just looks as if it is but then nothing really happens.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin

 

Will your media player play .MP4 files as that the format they are in.

[LinMM]

What are MP4 files!!?

 

I'm only using an iPad and the only other media player I have is a common and garden old CD player!

 

When I went into Toms file it wanted me to download Dropbox for IPad which I did.....and set up an account(which I'll rarely be using) I could then see the "files" Tom had sent including the Wednesday class etc but then when I went into one to play it ...it just goes on forever downloading and never gets to play even though I can see the beginning frame etc. So it appears to be there but just never actually starts so to speak.

If I haven't sorted by Wednesday I'll have a word with him then.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin

 

I'm not modern like you, I have a laptop, as soon as a file is available its automatically downloaded as a background task as soon as I log into my laptop. That means I can play it immediately any time, also it gets automatically deleted if Tom decides to delete it from drop box as often he replaces them. Your file is just over 56M so its not horrendously large. I'm just off to my first class, seem ages since I was there last, but sad too as I will be finishing with them today for about three months to allow my trips to Northern to do their show, at least my feet will stand a better chance of lasting out.

[Michelle_Richer]

What a frustrating week:

Tuesday called in to see a local studio to finalise some details, it turns out use of the Sound system is as expensive as hire of the studio. I suggested bring my own sound system in, but they insist it must be PATS tested and labelled. That make it more expensive than the London studio I hire, so its beginning to look like a no no.

 

Arrived at Peterborough to buy my train ticket only to be told, “There was a tube strike on, do I really want to go”. Although some lines were out, and other routes disrupted as the stations were closed, I did manage to get round the underground system with a lot of station swapping, but I was a little worried by the announcement that the system was being shutdown between 9.30pm and 11pm. Especially as my journey home started at 10pm from South Kensington after my ENB classes. As it was I managed to get back to Kings Cross for my connection in time.

 

Although I made my classes on time, my teacher for rep coaching was delayed in traffic by the best part of half and hour due to the tube strike so we had to work round that the best we could. I had already warmed up and had gone through the first phrase of the rep a few times.

 

Evening classes at ENB were a few dancers down, however I think their reception was expecting a lot more to be absent.

 

Even the train journey from Kings Cross to Peterborough was unpleasant as the upper window above my seat kept flying open at the smallest of pressure changes; I think the catch mechanism must have been broken. At one period I held it shut.

 

Wednesday Night: another rehearsal night, that was good as it reacquainted us with the almost finished show sequence after a long break as our teacher had to cancel class last week. One of the girls wanted to video it with her mobile phone. Our teacher ask if anyone objected, several did, I made it abundantly clear in a very loud voice that I did not. I couldn’t help feel it’s an awful shame such a powerful learning tool is banned for such a silly reasons. In reality it means it takes much longer to learn an enchainement and to a less consistent standard. I couldn’t leave the situation there so I have offered to practice with this young lady at her home, those that have objected I’m sorry but I cannot regard them as serious performing dancers.

 

Thursday LAB Rehearsal: At least there we do things properly, the teacher videos our final work of the session most weeks to help dancers polish their performance sequences, I strongly believe that is essential feedback.

[Fiz]

I am sure they are just as serious as you are, Michelle! They are just not as vociferous. Every time someone disagrees with you in class you come to this site and make rude remarks about their dedication. You do know that many amateur and professional dancers read this site, don't you?

[Jan McNulty]

There may be many reasons why people do not want to be videoed and that should be respected no matter how odd that may seem to some.

[Terpsichore]

........................

 

Wednesday Night: another rehearsal night, that was good as it reacquainted us with the almost finished show sequence after a long break as our teacher had to cancel class last week. One of the girls wanted to video it with her mobile phone. Our teacher ask if anyone objected, several did, I made it abundantly clear in a very loud voice that I did not. I couldn’t help feel it’s an awful shame such a powerful learning tool is banned for such a silly reasons. In reality it means it takes much longer to learn an enchainement and to a less consistent standard. I couldn’t leave the situation there so I have offered to practice with this young lady at her home, those that have objected I’m sorry but I cannot regard them as serious performing dancers.

 

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I have always admired your enthusiasm for ballet and the remarkable effort that you make to master it.  I understand your disappointment but I do think we have to respect the wishes of dancers who do not want to be filmed for whatever reason.

 

The right of a performer to object to filming, taping or broadcasting of his performance under Part II of the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 is an important intellectual property right for the whole entertainment industry as it guarantees its revenue stream.

 

I appreciate that the dancers' objection to being filmed was probably not made for commercial reasons but that really isn't relevant.   It is an absolute right which folk should be allowed to exercise it without censure,

[2dancersmum]

I agree that in a class situation any dancer has a right to refuse amateur recording of them dancing for whatever reason and without reprimand.  In this day and age that footage could turn up anywhere on the internet.  You should have the right to give permission to be filmed in advance and not be confronted with it when you are not expecting it.  I hope the girl with the mobile phone had a more gracious response.

 

Sorry but I also query the idea that videoing the classes is doing it properly or that it takes longer to learn an enchainment or that it is to a less consistent standard if not filmed most weeks.  I would be surprised if it was usual practice for most professional and amateur dance companies.  I don't doubt that it can provide useful feedback but dancers should not be relying on that visual feedback and they should be aware before they sign up to a class that they will be filmed.

[mimi66]

I agree with the comments above, totally.  

 

Must say I giggled a bit as I remembered my childhood ballet teachers told us off for not being "serious enough" if we could not pick up the given enchainements after about 2 marks ( x each side, as we were still beginners).  And my class (sort of Russian) were considered pretty relaxed one.  Not those elite classes.

 

Of course in an adult ballet class setting, I guess the approach can be a bit  more relaxed....   

[Moomin]

I expect lots of amateur and professional dancers wouldn't want amateur videos of them rehearsing turning up on Facebook, YouTube etc. If it is an expected part of the class/ performance then that is slightly different and if done by the teacher in charge of the class rather than an individual then

that is different too. As mimi says picking up quickly is an important and expected part of ballet. That was very kind of you to offer to help her though Michelle

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

Wednesday Night: another rehearsal night, that was good as it reacquainted us with the almost finished show sequence after a long break as our teacher had to cancel class last week. One of the girls wanted to video it with her mobile phone. Our teacher ask if anyone objected, several did, I made it abundantly clear in a very loud voice that I did not. I couldn’t help feel it’s an awful shame such a powerful learning tool is banned for such a silly reasons. In reality it means it takes much longer to learn an enchainement and to a less consistent standard. I couldn’t leave the situation there so I have offered to practice with this young lady at her home, those that have objected I’m sorry but I cannot regard them as serious performing dancers.

 

Thursday LAB Rehearsal: At least there we do things properly, the teacher videos our final work of the session most weeks to help dancers polish their performance sequences, I strongly believe that is essential feedback.

 

I agree that it was kind of you to offer help to the girl with the mobile phone, Michelle. However, I am uncomfortable, maybe even slightly offended, that you would suggest that dancers in class are not 'serious performing dancers' just because they do not want to be filmed. As it has been mentioned, a lot of people would not wish footage of themselves to appear on YouTube. If the video was filmed on someone's mobile, how would people know whether it would appear on the internet or not?

 

Personally, I would not be comfortable being filmed by someone in class because I feel there is too much I need to work on in ballet. What I would be worried about is, if a video of me appeared doing class/rehearsal, etc, it would invite 'anonymous' criticism from people claiming that I need to work on X,Y,Z even if they knew nothing about ballet. You can see this from non-professional ballet videos on YouTube. I've even seen people critcising a professional dancer's technique, only to be told by other users, 'She's a professional dancer, she doesn't need your help!'

 

There was a set of summer classes I did last year, attended by a mix of non-professionals, those who had graduated and looking for work and some who were on a break from vocational school and some maybe going to audition for vocational school later on, etc. There was a girl in her mid teens whose parents filmed their daughter throughout the whole class. It wasn't pleasant because some people did not want to go down the diagonal with this girl because it meant they would be filmed as well. As a result, a notice appeared in reception from the following week onwards. To sum up, it said that if people came into the studio, they had to do class. If people were not doing class, they had to leave, so no filming or photography was allowed in class. These classes were linked to a professional company in the UK, so I don't think anyone could call any of those dancers in attendance 'not serious dancers'.

[Thecatsmother]

I think that recording can be a useful learning aid but one which can be used for a range of purposes so therefore has to be used in moderation and wisely by any dancer.

When I choreograph for younger students, often they will record the piece at the end of the rehearsal so that it acts as a memory aid which they can go away and practice with between rehearsals if they forget parts. I often record it to include spoken corrections which they can integrate into their practice.

There are many issues for dancers which arise when watching their own dancing as a recording. For some, their is a complete aversive reaction and everything seems "rubbish". In these cases, it can often be about looking at it with them and teaching them to critique the good as well as the areas for improvement. The other issue I come across less frequently is dancers who watch the recording but don't really see the key issues which need to be corrected. I am not entirely sure why this occurs but I tend to have to provide prompts to encourage them to help themselves see rather than just look. I guess it is probably akin to learning to begin to self correct in class as this takes time and experience. You can't be expected after all to be able too see faults and correct them until you fully get a sense of what you are aiming for.

As for recording adults. I think this needs to be handled sensitively. Some might find it helpful whilst others might not or may feel uncomfortable with the idea. As a teacher I would certainly respect this decision and no dancer would be seen in my eyes to be less committed due to not wishing to be recorded. Different learning styles, levels of confidence and as mentioned above fears as to where recordings might end up are all relevant.

It is always important to try and think wisely about the purpose of recording and how you can ensure it will enhance technique rather than reinforce bad habits. It can be a brilliant way of picking up technical faults but first we must teach ourselves to really analyse what we see in order to make changes.

[LinMM]

Well Ive aired my views on this before. I don't like being filmed in an OPEN context in class or rehearsal for something am hoping to perfect over time.......well as near perfection for me as I can possibly hope to reach!!.......

 

The LAB film certain aspects of a groups learning it seems but then this for a closed group and nobody could access these videos unless they belonged to LAB or were in the company of an LAB member etc.

I still hate the filming and so on but it's unlikely this will end up,anywhere else.

The problem in the case of a student asking to film the class is you have no idea where this video will end up......it could be filmed by someone you hardly know so how can you actually trust their motive even if 8 times out of ten they are bona fide.

 

My partner who is in the film business has told me of all sorts of sinister aspects of uncontrolled filming and what could happen in the future even if seems far fetched now.

One something is on the open internet anything is possible .......more closed intranets may be safer but in the end everyone should feel absolutely free to decline being filmed.

And Michelle will know that I do disagree with her view on people not wanting to be filmed .....being less serious or dedicated dancers....g

Nonsense!!!

I'm not a good learner from videos anyway.......even though I know they can remind you that your foot is not fully stretched and so on ......I learn by doing and physically internalising and feeling the movements not so much by watching.

Edited May 1, 2014 by LinMM

[Michelle_Richer]

It seems I’ve ruffled a few feathers
Firstly let’s set the context of the filming, it’s for a performing class, not your standard everyday recreational ballet class, so we are talking rehearsal. The public pays money to see that performance, it’s not free to family and friends.

 

I agree that this aught to be done by the teacher and released through a closed environment like LAB do. But even so, I do not see a committed dancer of a performing group rushing off to put it on youtube, what’s the point, that is plain and simply silly and in any case we all have a responsibility to each other not to do that.

I guess one of the underlying issues is there is no strong group identity, I think its seen as, one is there just to do ones best for themselves and of course to please the teacher.

I have seen a strong group identity created with one word from my Body Balance teacher, she refers to the class as “TEAM” and means it, I’m not a sporty type but when she says that I certainly feel I am doing my bit for “TEAM GB”, but that just her way and its extremely positive.

I also believe that responsibility should extend to automatically giving ones consent to being filmed to preserve the changing dancing formation during the performance piece; otherwise it would not be a true representation and may effect the special awareness of some dancers faced with missing positions.

 

If I can just take one of LinMM points “......I learn by doing and physically internalising and feeling the movements not so much by watching.” Please note I have never said that this was the only tool that contributed to learning, but it most refinitely has its place in reminding you of the sequence itself as the memory of that will diminish in time quite quicking, also your relative position with other dancers as you travers though the different formations and of course any error or poor technique on your part in the execution of that sequence, or more importanly repition of that.

For me this is a culture problem within ballet but I do think things are changing as some of my other classes have allowed videoing.

 

From my other dancing side, Salsa videoing in common place, it’s done every where, if you don’t want videoing, you simply don’t go, and that is a thriving social dance culture.

 

 

Mimi66 I do love you comments about how well you pick up an enchainement in a single mark per side in your ballet classes.

 

Firstly we are talking scenes that have multiple formations using the same dancers and last considerable longer than most regular ballet class enchainements. But I am sure you would have no problem with your vast experience and training in executing perfectly a scene from one of the classics, only conveyed to you verbally be your teacher by its classical step names. While the rest of us take a great deal of time and trouble to rehears that scene in detail before we have a hope of getting it right.

 

I guess that’s why I dance the classics, because its not easy and I do take the time and trouble and above all the commitment to achieve that end. That’s also why I help others if they need it, that's just part of my culture.

[Jan McNulty]

Well your comments about filming at salsa events being commonplace have put me off ever wanting to learn salsa!

[bangorballetboy]

Wednesday Night: another rehearsal night, that was good as it reacquainted us with the almost finished show sequence after a long break as our teacher had to cancel class last week. One of the girls wanted to video it with her mobile phone. Our teacher ask if anyone objected, several did, I made it abundantly clear in a very loud voice that I did not. I couldn’t help feel it’s an awful shame such a powerful learning tool is banned for such a silly reasons. In reality it means it takes much longer to learn an enchainement and to a less consistent standard.

 

 

In my opinion, that makes for lazy dancers.  Part of the class should be teaching the brain to receive, engage and remember the enchainement.  That's why the teacher calls the enchainement in rhythm.

 

I've never taken any form of dance class where anything was recorded, other than in one-to-one private coaching for competitive ballroom dancing and that was to fine-tune a completed routine.  We (the collected masses) managed to learn and perform routines perfectly well before mobile 'phones with video!

[2dancersmum]

Ouch Michelle - I think your comments to Mimi are quite uncalled for. She in no way implied that she picked things up quickly or executed them perfectly or suggested that you did not. She wrote of a memory of the expectations of a childhood teacher for a beginners class.

 

You usually make some valid points and well reasoned arguments and it would be a strange world if we all agreed with each other but I found the end of your last post quite personal.

Edited May 2, 2014 by 2dancersmum

[mimi66]

Well your comments about filming at salsa events being commonplace have put me off ever wanting to learn salsa!

 

Janet, please rest assured that classes led by responsible, professional teachers would not allow irresponsible filming nor photo-taking of the class (particularly by an amateur), even if it is salsa.  So if you ever want to try, go ahead!  

 

You do have to do a bit of research beforehand and find the right person for the job, though.  Sadly, anyone can claim to be a salsa (or gafiera, forro, tango etc) teacher, or that they are "teaching" salsa.... 

 

To balance things up, I must add that most of the teachers I learned a certain social dance (not salsa) from were professional performing dancers with a solid dance background - meaning who have trained in dance between the age of 9 to 18 - quite few of them have actually gone to ballet school in their native countries.  They understand about what it means (and its implications) to be filmed or photographed, and would never allow anyone to film or photograph their students in class without their consent. And they would not dream of calling those who would not want to be filmed or photographed "not serious" dancers.

[mimi66]

[...]

Firstly let’s set the context of the filming, it’s for a performing class, not your standard everyday recreational ballet class, so we are talking rehearsal. The public pays money to see that performance, it’s not free to family and friends. [...]

 

[emphasis added by mimi66]

 

 

Michelle, I think a "performing class" should be put in the correct context first.  It is a " leaning process".   And if this "performance" (as a step within the learning process) is charged, that is because the organiser is doing this type of courses as fund raising opportunity, as well as an effort to make ballet more familiar to the "mass" . With ever dwindling public funding, ballet companies must come up with variety of "initiatives", rather than concentrating on their core activities...sadly.

 

I do not think participating what you call a "performance class" entitles you to dismiss other classes as "your standard recreational ballet class".  That is a huge insult to a lot of members of this forum - those who take  ballet classes, those with dancing children, and those who teach classes. 

 

As to the expectation of my childhood ballet class, it was the same when we were preparing for our annual recital. What you can't do in the class, you would never be able to do it on stage, after all. 

 

Personally, as an adult I would not even dream of performing in public (paying or non-paying) unless I have reached the level where I can  "[execute stepwise,] perfectly a scene from one of the classics, only conveyed to you verbally be your teacher by its classical step names (quated from Michelle's above post)", which really is the ability required for advanced/ professional (what you call "your everyday recreational" ) class.  

 

But that's just me, and I guess that was because I was lucky to have experienced "performing as  part of one's learning" when I was still a child. Sometimes things can only be seen in a correct perspective in hindsight, I guess.  

[JulieW]

We haven't been able to easily video until recent years - even my children managed perfectly well to learn solos, groups, show dances etc without the use of recording.  As they got older we started using it, but then they only used it as a reminder of the choreography if they forgot anything.

 

I suppose you could just video the person, or people, who don't mind being recorded, if someone would find it really necessary.