General advice for a young ballet dancer (15yo)

[Rein2019]

We are going to sit down later and go through our options. It is without a doubt she won’t be staying there. Both my husband and I are in agreement this is a must.

I have real mixed emotions about it all at the moment but I know it’s no longer the right school for her. 😔 it does not help that I am such a novice when it come to the dance world!! 

Thank you everyone though for listening/reading and giving honest helpful views 

x

[Lisa O`Brien]

I'm sure there are parents of dancing children on this Forum who live near-ish to you, who might be able to recommend a reputable, qualified teacher near to you.

[taxi4ballet]

2 hours ago, Rein2019 said:

I have been in touch with Danceworks and a Vaganova teacher who have both offered either a trial or an assessment. 

Does anyone know how Danceworks works- I requested a trial and they have replied and said they will let us know at the end if she is accepted?? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

Whats so conflicting for me is the length of time my daughter has danced there and they have been quite good up until I started to take a step back and delve deeper. I can hear the principles voice in my head slating me and my daughter to other parents with what ever we decide to do. And she will probably be little my daughter about her past faults and injuries. The reason I say this is because she said some things to me about another child who dances there and wasn’t particularly polite!! 

Re Danceworks, I believe that they run some sort of associate programme now, which I don't know anything about (sorry), but you can just turn up and pay on the day for the individual classes. The teachers are very nice, and if you ask beforehand they will give you a quick feedback chat afterwards. As she is under 16, it would also be a good idea to mention that it is ok for them to do physical hands-on position corrections if they wish. 

 

With a principal like that at the school you are better out of it - and as quickly as possible. After all, if you aren't there any more, you won't have to listen to any impolite remarks! Just stop going, and send in a letter. That's what we did. No need to have a conversation, or to explain anything, just walk out. Again, that's what we did. I only wish we'd taken the plunge when we first had misgivings and not left it for another two years. Your dd can keep in touch with friends on social media if she wants to.

 

Even if her dancing turns out to be purely recreational, you are paying good money for classes so it is better to pay for training at a decent school where she makes progress.

[Encroix]

Out of interest, at age 15,what grade Cecchetti is your daughter currently studying? Mine does Cecchetti too x

[Ruby Foo]

2 hours ago, Rein2019 said:

We are going to sit down later and go through our options. It is without a doubt she won’t be staying there. Both my husband and I are in agreement this is a must.

I have real mixed emotions about it all at the moment but I know it’s no longer the right school for her. 😔 it does not help that I am such a novice when it come to the dance world!! 

Thank you everyone though for listening/reading and giving honest helpful views 

x

This is very positive and I’m glad. Take plenty time to look at your options going forward. I would ring RAD ( Royal Academy of Dancing) and ISTD ( Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing) and ask them for a list of teachers in your area. There are plenty of other reputable organisations ( including Cecchetti!) but I can’t list them all. Scout the website of any potential new schools very carefully. You are looking for plenty of graded classes which cater for many levels of ability and signs that the pupils are doing well, not only in exams but going to good associate schemes. The classes should be a decent length in order to cover all the work. It would be useful, as your Dd is older,  if potential school had a decent number of older students too - always a healthy sign, especially if some of them are doing well.  Let your Dd sit in, or try out a few different schools, before making a decision. Weirdly, the school my own Dd went to before vocational school, had none of the above, being tiny and in the styx,  but, as an ex teacher I could easily see that the teacher knew her stuff.  I’m sure others on this forum have loads of tips  to help you too.

[Kate_N]

Danceworks has two streams:

 

1. the open drop-in classes mostly for adult dancers, but children can take them with the teacher's permission: schedule here: http://danceworks.net/classes/schedule/tuesday/

 

These are drop-in classes, which don't necessarily follow a syllabus - they have excellent teachers.

 

Then there's the Danceworks Ballet Academy which is a graded regular termly school for young children/teens. They also run a summer school. This might be what Danceworks is referring to here:

 

Quote

I requested a trial and they have replied and said they will let us know at the end if she is accepted?? 

 

[annekh510]

2 hours ago, ImgyA said:

Out of interest, at age 15,what grade Cecchetti is your daughter currently studying? Mine does Cecchetti too x

 

This will give some people here a very good idea of her standard, given you said she got distinctions in all of them - I've no idea of the Cecchetti levels.

 

I'm a little surprised that a different teacher is taking the pointe class (do later cecchetti exams involve pointework?), that's a class where it's even more important to have a good teacher, otherwise you're risking both acute and chronic injuries.

 

You says she's in class 12 hours a week, so that's quite an investment and it really doesn't sound like you're getting your money's worth. I'd also consider dropping the acro, seen as she seems to enjoy ballet most, I always hear the mantra that gymnastics coaches liked it if you had ballet training, but ballet teachers don't like if if you take gymnastics - they do things like force extensions with no attention to technique, which transfers badly to ballet, you are just using your body in such a different way.

 

Does she do competitions? How often does she have the opportunity to do performances? The vocational ballet world in the UK isn't a big fan of competitions and in my experience having a private lesson to work on a solo doesn't help you improve anywhere near as much as a general private lesson, or even just a regular class. It's good to have the opportunity to perform, but not too often, I was quite frustrated around your DD's age that even though my school didn't perform that often we'd spend so long working on the show numbers and there was very little regular class, I think most parents wanted at least that frequency of performance, but the ratio of performance time to rehearsal time was all wrong, especially when I was quite good at remembering choreography and other than for ballet I was often in the back row despite being as good as if not better as people who were given more prominent roles. Dance school politics can get a bit crazy.

[Pixiewoo]

I have nothing to add particuarly, but wanted to say that since starting Acro, my DD has majorly improved her core strength and overall strength and stamina. 

 

 

[Kate_N]

As far as I know, the Cecchetti syllabus has pretty much the same levels as RAD, but I don't think they do the higher grades as an alternative to the more vocational exams. So they do Elementary, Intermediate, and 2 levels of Advanced - at least this was so when I did Cecchetti syllabus classes. Overall, fairly equivalent to RAD gradings - or indeed any syllabus which progresses methodically through ballet technique (which is all the RAD and other such organisations do). 

 

UK information here: https://www.cecchetti.co.uk/

Edited January 30, 2019 by Kate_N

[Encroix]

9 hours ago, Kate_N said:

As far as I know, the Cecchetti syllabus has pretty much the same levels as RAD, but I don't think they do the higher grades as an alternative to the more vocational exams. So they do Elementary, Intermediate, and 2 levels of Advanced - at least this was so when I did Cecchetti syllabus classes. Overall, fairly equivalent to RAD gradings - or indeed any syllabus which progresses methodically through ballet technique (which is all the RAD and other such organisations do). 

 

UK information here: https://www.cecchetti.co.uk/

I'm not sure they're that comparable - my DD is currently studying Grade 5 Cecchetti (exam in July) and has just started RAD in January - her new teacher has entered her for her intermediate foundation exam in March as she has the technique. 

With Cecchetti, after grade 6,you can't take the next exam until you're 16 apparently? 

[Kate_N]

So Cecchetti is more advanced at the vocational grades than RAD - is that your experience?  ie Cecchetti Grade 5 = RAD Inter foundation (which was Elementary in my day ... but I'm oooold).

 

As I say, I did the Cecchetti syllabus work some time ago - before the RAD spread out their syllabus (which was a sort of 'dumbing down' to accommodate serious recreational dancers I think?) 

 

Sorry Mods, this is all off-topic I know ...

[annekh510]

3 hours ago, ImgyA said:

I'm not sure they're that comparable - my DD is currently studying Grade 5 Cecchetti (exam in July) and has just started RAD in January - her new teacher has entered her for her intermediate foundation exam in March as she has the technique. 

With Cecchetti, after grade 6,you can't take the next exam until you're 16 apparently? 

 

Actually grade 5 to intermediate foundation is roughly what I'd expect, typically people branch to vocational levels after grade 5 RAD, mostly to intermediate foundation, some to intemediate, though with no age limit on intermediate foundation anymore, there isn't much reason to do that, but I know people do skip it.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

6 hours ago, ImgyA said:

I'm not sure they're that comparable - my DD is currently studying Grade 5 Cecchetti (exam in July) and has just started RAD in January - her new teacher has entered her for her intermediate foundation exam in March as she has the technique. 

With Cecchetti, after grade 6,you can't take the next exam until you're 16 apparently? 

 

Im pretty sure that is not the case. 

 

Ceccettti exams only go up to Grade 6 whereas RAD go up to Grade 8 but in both exam boards children tend to start Intermediate Foundation around Grade 4/5 Level.  This is Level 2 on the QCF

 

Some schools will then have more serious students work on Intermediate alongside Grade 6/7/8 whereas others may abandon the numbered grades in favour of only taking the Majors.(Grades 6-8 and Intermediate are all Level 3 on the QCF) it’s up to the teacher how they work it.

 

If a student is studying Ceccetti then they may take Grade 6 alongside or followed by Intermediate & then Advanced 1 followed by Advanced 2. (Adv 1 & 2 are Level 4). RAD set minimum ages for each vocational grade but as far as I can see ISTD only stipulate age 11 to start the majors. 

[Moomin]

Cecchetti runs grade 1-6 followed by IF. You definitely couldn’t work on IF in grade 4/5 or inter in grade 6. For example there’s double pirouettes in IF but grade 4 is the first time a proper pirouette is introduced. The exercises all build on each other from grade to grade so you really need to take them in order. The levels aren’t really comparable to the RAD as there is a lot more classical content. There are minimum ages but I think IF is 12 and grade 6 is 11, the syllabus used to be available on line

[Rein2019]

Morning, thought I would give you all an update.

We took our daughter up to to Danceworks in London a few weekends back and I got to watch her dance from the reception area. She was super nervous and nearly didn’t go in but the reception staff were really encouraging and calmed her fears. I could tell the lesson was making her work and the teacher only had to correct her once on twice while doing barre work. She then went and did an hour of pointe work which she loved. 

We asked her if she found a difference to where she currently dances and she said yes it was more structured and focused. She even pointed out the use on her pointe shoes that would never of happened where she is now. So we came away feeling more positive and focused. She actually got offered a place there and the feedback from the teacher was lovely and positive. We now have to think about logistics and cost going forward. It certainly gave us food for thought. 

[Fiz]

Good luck with your decision!

[Aixsta]

Hello, 

 

maybe be looking into exams would help, that will give you an idea of were she is sitting.

in an exam class, i would imagine the ability levels are very close so that can help to excel her training 

 

[Tulip]

Don’t worry about exams. Priority is to get a very good teacher, it’s all about technique and expression. You will probably already know some good dance schools from the competitions you do. Perhaps start auditioning for associate schemes, elmhurst, Central school of Ballet, Royal etc. Dance X in Birmingham during school holidays have fantastic classes with professional dance teachers from ballet companies, some of them even offer privat 1-1 Ballet classes. Does your daughter want to take her dancing to vocational level?

[Kate_N]

22 hours ago, Rein2019 said:

So we came away feeling more positive and focused. She actually got offered a place there and the feedback from the teacher was lovely and positive. We now have to think about logistics and cost going forward. It certainly gave us food for thought. 

 

 

Thanks for the update. Whatever you decide about attending Danceworks or not, that sounds like a really positive experience. I'd love to know which teacher/class she did?

 

Now you know what standard pre/professional preparation teaching should be like, you don't necessarily have to attend Danceworks - there may be some similar options closer to you. Danceworks Academy (the structured school & syllabus for children/teens) runs a summer school which she could attend in addition to a regular studio closer to you.

 

Best wishes & good luck going forwards!

Edited February 17, 2019 by Kate_N

[sarahw]

Off topic but re: Cecchetti my DD has done BBO most then 2y RAD and has just moved to Cecchetti. She rates it as much harder than the others which she thought were similar...

[Viv]

On 31/01/2019 at 04:41, Kate_N said:

As I say, I did the Cecchetti syllabus work some time ago - before the RAD spread out their syllabus (which was a sort of 'dumbing down' to accommodate serious recreational dancers I think?) 

 

I'm not sure that's really an accurate comment. Based on my discussions with various teachers, including an RAD examiner and teachers at the closest thing to a 'vocational' school we have here, the new RAD Advanced 1 and particularly Advanced 2 are much harder than they were previously and the examiners now expect a lot more from candidates. While there's no specific exercise requiring 16 fouettes en pointe (yikes!) the pointe work is now all included in longer, more exhausting enchainements that require a different kind of dance ability to be able to put them together and perform to a high enough standard. Teachers I know who used to skip the 'foundation' levels have now started adding them to their timetables because the jump between intermediate and advanced 1 is a nightmare! So I'm not sure they're spreading them out to 'dumb them down' or cater to people with less ability, I think it's more like they've built an extra floor on top of the building, so they've had to build more steps to get to the top of that building.

 

As far as the difficulty of RAD vs Cecchetti is concerned, most serious ballet schools here in Aus do non-syllabus, RAD and Checchetti exams so their students can qualify for more competitions. At the advanced levels of both, the two syllabi are fairly comparable. From my understanding, Chechetti reaches a more advanced stage younger, but in the top levels they start to balance out. I think it's the same with pretty much all syllabi, and the aim of all ballet classes in the end - they're simply a different vehicle that you can use to get to pretty much the same end point, if you're willing to put in the work. Find the one that suits you as a dancer, with a teacher that inspires you.

 

@Rein2019 Good luck with everything, it sounds like you made the right decision to move her! Even without all the red flags (and there were many in your posts), it sounds like you were overall not comfortable or happy with the training your daughter was receiving, and once you feel like you can no longer discuss this with her teacher, it is time to move on. At 15, if your daughter just wants to improve for the sake of the challenge and being the best she can be, don't worry about a particular syllabus or exams, just find a teacher that she gels with, that pushes her and makes her come out of class buzzing  I wish her all the best!

[Kate_N]

Thanks for the correction, Viv, and the up-to-date information. Your explanation makes perfect sense - the foundation skills being more strongly embedded as students work through the vocational grades. 

 

As I say, I did bits of syllabus work before the RAD stretched out their curriculum. What I learned as Intermediate is now Advanced Foundation, I think ... so I thought that stretching out was a bit of "dumbing down"  - not in a bad way, but just a way of accommodating lots of different kinds of dancers. And yes, my teacher jumped us from Grade 3 or 4 (I think) straight to Elementary with some Intermediate thrown in! 

[Viv]

@Kate_N That's very interesting! When was it that you did your RAD work? They've changed the vocational syllabus names so many times over the years that I find it a bit hard to keep track of at times. I know that a few iterations ago, it used to be that what is now Intermediate was called Elementary and what is now Advanced 1 was called Intermediate. And Advanced 2 is what used to be Advanced. So I suppose it might be that what you were doing in 'Intermediate' would be new Advanced 1 standard, which would explain why some of it is now included in Advanced Foundation? Sorry if you already knew this, I can see you use Elementary in your latest post and I'm not sure if before you were just trying to use the modern terms for comparibility. Because the whole system has changed names and marking schemes 100 times I get easily confused!!! 😂🙈 I suppose it really just goes to show how arbitrary syllabi and exams and marks are in the end because in 50 years time it'll have changed 8 more times and a top mark will be a zebra sticker and a pass mark will be a raincloud or something... If a child (or an adult) is in a class that they enjoy and find challenging, and they're at an equivalent level with other people their age with similar aspirations, then RAD or Checchetti or ISTD or non-syllabus is completely irrelevant haha! 😊