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The Royal Ballet: La Bayadère, London, November 2018


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13 hours ago, toursenlair said:

I would really like it if terms like "PC brigade" and "I was offended brigade" and "virtue signalling" were all retired. As someone has said, replace "politically correct" with "respectful and sensitive" and it sheds a whole new light on the matter. What do people who fling about accusations of "PC" really want? 

 

 

11 hours ago, Sunrise said:

 

I think terms like PC brigade are generally used to belittle other people and opinions. 

 

I really must disagree with this.  I explained in an earlier post what my definition of the PC Brigade was, and I know many people who use it in the same way.  Just to reiterate, my definition is that the PC Brigade refers to members of a small, vocal group who pop up from time to time "demanding" apologies and bans for something that might be offensive to someone else, when no objection has actually been made by anyone.  Fortunately, these people are few and far between, and I suspect that many stories of political correctness are apocryphal.  At lease, I hope they are.  

 

I strongly object to the comments that people who use it, myself included presumably, are right wing facists who cannot accept opinions that are different to theirs.  It is my personal experience that "political correctness " has absolutely nothing to with being "respectful and sensitive",  and is anything but.  


It is perfectly ok for an individual to say that certain aspects of La Bayadere make for uncomfortable viewing for them personally.  It is quite another to say that they would like to see it banned, or drastically changed.  Ok, we get it,  It isn't an accurate reflection of the Orient.  It was never meant to be, anymore than Bollywood films are supposed to be accurate reflection of everyday life in India.  Just because Solor is seen having a drug induced vision doesn't mean that all Indians are stoned out of their minds.  Or that the ladies are in the habit of bumping off their rivals with baskets of flowers  containing venomous snakes.  Those that think it is need to get out a bit more. But take away the "oriental" setting and what have you got?  A rather ordinary story about two women fighting over the same man, who is a bit of a wimp and can't stand up to his prospective future father-in-law.  

 

14 hours ago, loveclassics said:

 

I don't get this.  I was just poking a little light-hearted fun at the way old fairy tales are being taken so seriously these days.  I am not in favour of the way parts of our cultural history are now being re-interpreted in the light of modern thinking.  It's a bit like the angry suffragette who took a knife to the Rokeby Venus.  I understand her motive but in the long run do such protests achieve anything?

 

Linda

 

Quite. 

 

I think some people seemed to be  taking this a bit too seriously, and also too personally, and the various comments about pantomimes and so on was a way of lightening the whole thread up. 

 

And might I suggest that the Moderators remove comments not directly related to the last run at the RB, and put them in a separate thread? There is clearly a need to talk about cultural sensitivity in general, and it might have been sparked off by the current production of LB, but I think this thread should stick to comments about  the actual performances.  

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20 minutes ago, Fonty said:

It is perfectly ok for an individual to say that certain aspects of La Bayadere make for uncomfortable viewing for them personally.  It is quite another to say that they would like to see it banned, or drastically changed. 

 

But I don't think anyone was calling for Bayadere or any other ballets to be banned or anything that extreme. I feel like some of those defending Bayadere escalated to that on their own. I thought the discussion about the appropriateness of the Orientalism was quite interesting personally. I don't understand why that discussion can't be had without causing upset.

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22 minutes ago, Fonty said:

I really must disagree with this.  I explained in an earlier post what my definition of the PC Brigade was, and I know many people who use it in the same way.  Just to reiterate, my definition is that the PC Brigade refers to members of a small, vocal group who pop up from time to time "demanding" apologies and bans for something that might be offensive to someone else, when no objection has actually been made by anyone.  Fortunately, these people are few and far between, and I suspect that many stories of political correctness are apocryphal.  At lease, I hope they are.  

 

I strongly object to the comments that people who use it, myself included presumably, are right wing facists who cannot accept opinions that are different to theirs.  It is my personal experience that "political correctness " has absolutely nothing to with being "respectful and sensitive",  and is anything but.  

 

Fonty, that may be your definition and use of "PC Brigade", but sadly, many others use it in a different way. If yours were the only way people used the term, I would agree with you 100%.

 

And I agree that if PC only meant the sort of people you describe, then yes, they are anything but respectful and sensitive.

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3 hours ago, bridiem said:

 

 

I don't know. But people like Luke Jennings are influential.

 

But as has been pointed out, Luke Jennings wasn't calling for LB to be banned.

 

I don't know much about LJ, and don't agree with some of his comments. But I suspect that the very fact that he writes for the Guardian damns him in the eyes of some. As a paper the Guardian is far less influential than the Telegraph, let alone the Sun/Mail/Express brigade. Just look at the circulation figures.

 

And I must thank LJ for one thing. He once wrote a book co-authored with Deborah Bull, aimed at people like myself, with little knowledge of ballet. I found it, together with this forum, one of the most useful in helping a beginner like me gain a further understanding of the history of ballet, and the various main ballets. (The sections by Bull I found especially good for learning about the physical stresses of being a ballet dancer. She is witty and informative. Unfortunately she is not a "celebrity" like the other DB, otherwise perhaps the RB might use her in a similar role, which I suspect she might be good at).

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1 hour ago, Fonty said:

I really must disagree with this.  I explained in an earlier post what my definition of the PC Brigade was, and I know many people who use it in the same way.  Just to reiterate, my definition is that the PC Brigade refers to members of a small, vocal group who pop up from time to time "demanding" apologies and bans for something that might be offensive to someone else, when no objection has actually been made by anyone.

 

In my experience, PC Brigade, along with the "I was offended brigade" are used as shorthand to insult and ridicule opinions. You, along with many posters, express yourself very eloquently without needing such terms. Why throw them around so carelessly? I couldn't tell if they were directed at me. Their usage, along with suggestions to relax, and effectively be quiet or stay at home, is quite annoying and hurtful.

Edited by Sunrise
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4 hours ago, Mary said:
think if I were staging LB next time I would change the presentation of the fakirs. Earlier in this thread they were referred to as 'savages' (!) and certainly noone I took to the ballet has understood they are meant to be Indian holy men. They have rasta wigs for one  thing and they do a sort of repeated grovelling movement - they have no dignity and seem to be like a representation of what used to be called 'an inferior race'- rather than the dignity of 'holy men'.
So yes I would like to change that.

 

I didn't know that the fakirs are meant to be holy men - it doesn't come across at all. They are probably the most obvious problem I have with Bayadere for the reasons you give and they don't even contribute to the plot. I'm sure I'm not the only one in the audience who watches the fakirs dancing and grovelling and feel a bit uncomfortable/embarrassed. I'm curious what the dancers think of it. 

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1 hour ago, Fonty said:

And might I suggest that the Moderators remove comments not directly related to the last run at the RB, and put them in a separate thread? There is clearly a need to talk about cultural sensitivity in general, and it might have been sparked off by the current production of LB, but I think this thread should stick to comments about  the actual performances.  

 

I'd considered it, but there are 25 pages at present, with I think 30 posts per page, and it's very complicated and time-consuming to do (which is why we appreciate it when people post in the right place in the first place :) )

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1 minute ago, alison said:

 

I'd considered it, but there are 25 pages at present, with I think 30 posts per page, and it's very complicated and time-consuming to do (which is why we appreciate it when people post in the right place in the first place :) )

 

Is there any point to moving posts when the performances and most of the encore screenings are over anyway?

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2 hours ago, alison said:

 

I'd considered it, but there are 25 pages at present, with I think 30 posts per page, and it's very complicated and time-consuming to do (which is why we appreciate it when people post in the right place in the first place :) )

 

Ah ok, I didn't realise that.  

2 hours ago, Sunrise said:

 

Is there any point to moving posts when the performances and most of the encore screenings are over anyway?

 

Only that LB may be over, but the issue of cultural sensitivity is not likely to be. 

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1 hour ago, FrankH said:

But as has been pointed out, Luke Jennings wasn't calling for LB to be banned.

 

FrankH we are now repeating  ourselves! Because as has also been pointed out, Jennings' only reason for arguing that the RB's  La B should be kept seems to have been to so we can be taught some  kind of moral lesson "as a reminder of the repeated failure of colonial powers to comprehend civilisations older and subtler than their own".

 

At the same time he states "Some commentators, bringing contemporary sensibilities to bear, advocate relocating the work to a non-specific, non-Indian setting and cutting out its offensive elements. Others would like to see the work excised from the ballet repertoire altogether". 

And he says "there’s no getting around the fact that this is a deeply problematic ballet" (quite why, for me,  he does not satisfactorily explain). 

 

So whilst I don't think anyone on this thread (unless I have missed it) has actually called for Makarova's La B  to be "excised" from the  rep., there does seem to be a wider view, reflected in some of the comments on here,  suggesting her La B is a "problem" in terms of its ability to cause offence. I disagree, and I can understand why that sort of suggestion has been responded to  here with some  vigour; surely such responses are valid without being dismissed as unduly defensive or insulting. 

 

Again I would suggest Makarova's La B must be distinguised from the  Bolshoi version which I think does have some objectionable elements!

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4 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

 

FrankH we are now repeating  ourselves! Because as has also been pointed out, Jennings' only reason for arguing that the RB's  La B should be kept seems to have been to so we can be taught some  kind of moral lesson "as a reminder of the repeated failure of colonial powers to comprehend civilisations older and subtler than their own".

 

At the same time he states "Some commentators, bringing contemporary sensibilities to bear, advocate relocating the work to a non-specific, non-Indian setting and cutting out its offensive elements. Others would like to see the work excised from the ballet repertoire altogether". 

And he says "there’s no getting around the fact that this is a deeply problematic ballet" (quite why, for me,  he does not satisfactorily explain). 

 

So whilst I don't think anyone on this thread (unless I have missed it) has actually called for Makarova's La B  to be "excised" from the  rep., there does seem to be a wider view, reflected in some of the comments on here,  suggesting her La B is a "problem" in terms of its ability to cause offence. I disagree, and I can understand why that sort of suggestion has been responded to  here with some  vigour; surely such responses are valid without being dismissed as unduly defensive or insulting. 

 

Again I would suggest Makarova's La B must be distinguised from the  Bolshoi version which I think does have some objectionable elements!

 

But someone on this thread did claim that Luke Jennings was calling for the ballet to be dropped. Which he clearly wasn't, even if his reasoning that it shouldn't be was flawed, in your, and my, opinion.

 

I'm sorry but I see no reason now to go on about this. Much heat has been generated, but very little light.

 

As I posted previously, I myself would much rather post about the excellence of the RB dancers.

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9 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

I disagree, and I can understand why that sort of suggestion has been responded to  here with some  vigour; surely such responses are valid without being dismissed as unduly defensive or insulting.

 

I welcome spirited discussion! But I felt that some of the vigour was directed towards invalidating and dismissing some of my (and similar) posts. 

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7 hours ago, Mary said:

I think if I were staging LB next time I would change the presentation of the fakirs. Earlier in this thread they were referred to as 'savages' (!) and certainly noone I took to the ballet has understood they are meant to be Indian holy men. They have rasta wigs for one  thing and they do a sort of repeated grovelling movement - they have no dignity and seem to be like a representation of what used to be called 'an inferior race'- rather than the dignity of 'holy men'.

 

Mary, Timmie explained earlier that "Sadhus (Hindu version of Fakir as far as I can tell) rub their skin all over with ashes for protection from the sun’s rays and insects. The ash is sifted down to a fine powder so gives a good covering".  Also Google tells me "they  have renounced their worldly life, said goodbye to both their possessions and their families, and now lead a life of celibacy, ascetic yoga, and a search for enlightenment" ... all of which may help to account for their representation.   The attached examples do not appear too  dissimilar.

Sadhu.jpg

fakir.jpg

Edited by Richard LH
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15 minutes ago, FrankH said:

This may be of interest to some, if they haven't already seen it:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7cy03eYLFU

 

Very short excerpt from Queensland Ballet's staging of this ballet.

 

Thanks FrankH for this snippet  reminding me of what is best  about this ballet.  But I think this is a new version, with some changes?  It would be good to see the whole thing somehow.

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This thread really is becoming somewhat desperate.

 

There is next-to-nothing left of the work of Petipa, Perrot, de Saint-Léon ... owing to reckless and/or egotistical tampering by their successors.

 

There is next-to-nothing left of grand technique, people's bodies having been wrecked by hyper-flexibility and hyper-extending.

 

Now, we are supposed to "censor" the old ballets for Flavour of the Month reasons.

 

Folks - it ain't possible to keep up with Flavour of the Month.  'Cus it does wotitssays on the  Tin - changes every month.

 

Allow me to add how very White Man's Burden the entire debate is.

 

People in, er, "remote" parts of the Globe, may be somewhat more reluctant than we Pale Faces, to trash 5,000 years' acquaintance with their own artistic traditions - which most emphatically include the utterly ridiculous, the nasty, the gross, and what have you - to conform to some (generally filmed nude) Hollywood starlet's or Champagne Socialist's opinions on Feminism, or whatever the current little frenzy may be.

 

Anyway, we need to cut this out.  And possibly develop a sense of humour. 

 

Oddly enough, one sees far less concern over McGregor's work, or David Dawson's (Cf. The Grey Area for example), and what it does to performers - and public - (I have a word for this, but it's a Family Website).  But we get hot under the collar over an extra rushing about in blackface in a ballet that is by now, nearly 200 years old. 

 

It's OF ITS TIME.  Get over it.

 

BTW, as  a God-fearing Jew, NO, I do NOT go ballistic over Alec Guinness' portrayal of Fagin. 

 

Perhaps someone would like to have David Lean's work banned?  Dicken's work banned?  Or the role of Fagin cut out?  Just for starters ...

 

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

So whilst I don't think anyone on this thread (unless I have missed it) has actually called for Makarova's La B  to be "excised" from the  rep., there does seem to be a wider view, reflected in some of the comments on here,  suggesting her La B is a "problem" in terms of its ability to cause offence. I disagree, and I can understand why that sort of suggestion has been responded to  here with some  vigour; surely such responses are valid without being dismissed as unduly defensive or insulting. 

 

Well I, for one, haven't dismissed these responses as ipso facto defensive or insulting. I can quite understand if a favourite work of art is attacked on what seems to many (in this case including myself) as specious and invalid reasons.

 

But equally any posts opposing those views should not be dismissed as examples of "The PC Brigade".

 

I was hoping there would be an end to all this nonsense - on both sides, and we could get back to discussing ballet.

 

I wasn't optimistic - and I was right not to be.

Edited by FrankH
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7 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

 

Thanks FrankH for this snippet  reminding me of what is best  about this ballet.  But I think this is a new version, with some changes?  It would be good to see the whole thing somehow.

 

This has only just appeared on youtube. Maybe the Queensland Ballet website will be more informative.

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@FrankH and @Richard LH the Greg Horsman Bayadère for QB, WAB and RWB is revised. As mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

Solor is the son of the Maharajah of Cooch Behar, being forced to marry Edith, the British Governor-General's daughter, to cement a treaty between his father and the British. He loves temple dancer Nikiya though. Edith stabs Nikiya to death...full story on QB's website at https://www.queenslandballet.com.au/on-stage/2018/la-bayadere/the-story

 

And don't get me started on Shades in bikini tutus. Or are they bare-midriff tutus? Or attempts at tutu-ising the "usual" bra-and-harem-pants ensemble?

Edited by Sophoife
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45 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

 

Mary, Timmie explained earlier that "Sadhus (Hindu version of Fakir as far as I can tell) rub their skin all over with ashes for protection from the sun’s rays and insects. The ash is sifted down to a fine powder so gives a good covering".  Also Google tells me "they  have renounced their worldly life, said goodbye to both their possessions and their families, and now lead a life of celibacy, ascetic yoga, and a search for enlightenment" ... all of which may help to account for their representation.   The attached examples do not appear too  dissimilar.

Sadhu.jpg

fakir.jpg

These and other images I have seen certainly go with the grey skinned, loincloth wearing long haired “Fakirs” in La Bayadère.  What I do dislike is the grovelling posture and low to the ground dancing.  As Holy Men, I assume the Fakirs would have been subservient to the High Brahmin but would they really have grovelled like servants to Solor? 

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  • 2 months later...

Finally had to chance to watch the Nunez/Osipova/Muntagirov Bayadere in cinema this week.  It was a thrilling show and I'm so envious of everyone who got to see it live.

 

The Nunez-Osipova face off lived up to its billing.  Nunez has a stately, cerebral dignity as Nikiya with her usual strong, steely technique.  There was a certain defiance in the Shades scene which contrasted with her lyricism in the first act.  The Act I solo was masterful:  her control rolling on and off pointe, the extended arabesques, and the phrasing showed all of her experience performing the ballet.  Dramatically her Nikiya didn't develop to the extent of an Asylmuratova or Vishneva--my gold standards in the role--but an absolutely fine performance.  She makes steps you've seen hundreds of times appear fresh and alive; how she extended back into attitude after the supported pirouettes in Shades was a particular highlight.


Osipova has less purity technically than Nunez: there were instances of slack knees, insufficient turn out, and sloppy port de bras in the exposed betrothal scene.  But as Gamzatti she is convincing and captivating in every moment.  Small details in the choreography somehow stick in your memory when Osipova performs them.  As an example, before Nikiya's entrance in the fight scene when Gamzatti is distraught and glances at her bracelet, Osipova's reading was so clear you could hear her say, "I've got this under control."  Gamzatti is perhaps the most fully realized character in the ballet....much like Amneris in Aida, she is a spoiled princess who has everything one could ever want except love.  Osipova brought the character to life as much as I've seen in recent years with the possible exception of Alexandrova.

 

Muntagirov's Solor was subtle in characterization and was as its best in Shades.  The partnering of both ballerinas was fauthless and the Act I solo was quality in every respect: superior cabrioles, a la seconde turns, and a double tour-double finish for good measure.  He captured Solor's dilemma well in Act I but seemed slightly muted against the two ballerinas. Fortunately the hypnotic Kingdom of Shades was just what he needed, where in his dream the torment of losing Nikiya was palpable.  Technically I've rarely seen a danseur who can pull out all the stops with bravura but has such elegance of line and quiet, soft landings.  In the coda he included eight double assembles instead of the usual six.

 

Makarova's production has its longueurs and is less demanding technically than Nureyev's (about the only Nureyev production I find watchable), and I have very mixed feelings about the third Act.  On one hand it provides closure to the story but Shades is impossible to top.  Nonetheless, with such a strong trio of principals, the third Act made sense and was welcome in this performance. 

 

And what can be said about Kingdom of Shades?  Simply one of the most beautiful scenes ever choreographed, and the RB women did it justice.  The treacherous opening arabesques and developpe a la seconde hold were negotiated with few serious wobbles.  The 24 women had this serenity, breathing as one.  The three soloists-Yuhui Choe, Yasmine Naghdi, and Akane Takada--were all very fine with Naghdi standing out for her adagio control and textbook fifth positions.  I know she danced Gamzatti elsewhere in the run but I would love to see her Nikiya.

Edited by MRR
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