Jam Dancer Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 On 10/10/2018 at 22:34, penelopesimpson said: Why on earth should it matter what colour the dancers are? Who said that it should matter ? That was not the point of my post. But actually in one sense it does matter .. representation matters. You might feel differently because it’s not the vantage point from which you see things but if there are others fully willing, able, and talented enough who want to dance and are not getting the opportunity, it matters. Also in another sense, if it didn’t matter the experience of many wouldn’t have been what it has been and still continues to be. If you mean that it doesn’t matter to you what colour the dancers then fine but there are other people for whom it matters in very different ways... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Dancer Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 On 11/10/2018 at 02:03, Lindsay said: (although I do wish they would stop casting dark skinned dancers disproportionately frequently as the caterpillar in Alice....) Interesting that you say that - the role was created on Eric Underwood so I guess that’s why? The male lead in Agon which was created on Arthur Mitchell has often been cast that way every time I’ve seen it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Dancer Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 On 11/10/2018 at 18:00, ninamargaret said: Seems that ballet may be a bit late in catching up! The RSC put on the Henry VI plays around 2002 and, shock and horror, cast a black actor as Henry. There was much consternation at the time. Since then it has become so normal to have 'black' actors playing 'white' parts that very few people would even comment on it. The big stumbling block is of course Othello,where generations of white actor can. no longer play the role. Really?😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Jam Dancer said: Interesting that you say that - the role was created on Eric Underwood so I guess that’s why? The male lead in Agon which was created on Arthur Mitchell has often been cast that way every time I’ve seen it.. The latter, as we discovered in Mitchell's obituaries, was a deliberate "political" and artistic decision by Balanchine. For the Caterpillar, it seems to me that skin colour is a, if not the, major casting consideration. And when was the last time that a white actor was cast as Othello in the UK in any significant production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Newcombe Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 (edited) Bussell danced Agon and Apollo with Eddie J. Shellman of Dance Theatre Harlem in the early 1990’s at The Royal Opera House. This was a time when Dance Theatre Harlem dancers guested with the Royal Ballet. I was privileged to see the great Virginia Johnson dance Giselle at that time!! Edited October 13, 2018 by Tony Newcombe Bad grammar I think 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninamargaret Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 15 hours ago, alison said: when was the last time that a white actor was cast as Othello in the UK in any significant production? I think it was in the early 70s. An RSC production with Brewster Mason playing the Moor. Not fully blacked up, but he played him as an Arab. Super production that's remained with me for all those years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 On 11/10/2018 at 09:18, Melody said: I remember reading an article where one black dancer (not sure if it was Ms dePrince) said that early on in her ballet life she was hoping to get the role of Clara and was told that the family wouldn't have had a black daughter so it was out of the question. Hopefully that attitude isn't common. I wonder if that is actually true? Speaking personally, I never even notice the skin colour of somebody when they appear on stage. It would never occur to me to say, "Oh, look, there is a non white person taking part." I would have no problems at all with a black actor playing some of the major Shakespearean roles on stage. All acting is make believe, so logic flies out of the window. After all, we don't expect Romeo and Juliet to be played by a pair of young teenagers, so why should anyone be bothered if, say, Romeo is black and Juliet is white? Or that all Romeo's mates seem to be a different colour to him? How many of the audience thought about it when Carlos Acosta was performing? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Fonty said: I wonder if that is actually true? Sadly, I think it could be true. I once overheard two audience members querying why Chi Cao and Nao Sakuma of BRB were dancing Romeo and Juliet. I also heard someone wondering why Mlindi Kulashe 0f NB had been cast as Mr Rochester and someone recently said to me that companies were looking too Asian!!!!!! Personally I am not bothered about anybody's ethnicity, gender, religion or politics when they are on stage! I have come to see people perform ... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 3 hours ago, Fonty said: I wonder if that is actually true? I wonder why you would wonder that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Colman said: I wonder why you would wonder that? Well, I don't know the context of the quote. The press have been known to misquote people from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 10 hours ago, Fonty said: How many of the audience thought about it when Carlos Acosta was performing? Well, I have been known to wonder how on earth that particular Romeo had two white parents - but then, all sorts of silly things strike me in the middle of ballets from time to time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Newcombe Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 5 hours ago, Fonty said: Well, I don't know the context of the quote. The press have been known to misquote people from time to time. Lauretta Summerscales gave an interview to the Daily Telegraph recently about the need to seek new roles. Added to this at the end was a rehash of the alleged troubles at ENB. This was nothing to do with the interview she had given. She tweeted or used Facebook to point this out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 I tried to find a link to the actual article quoting the dancer who said she'd been refused the role of Clara because she was obviously not related to the dancers playing the parents but I'm afraid I couldn't. I do remember it quite clearly (or I wouldn't have posted about it), and will continue to search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Well, there's this: "This calls to mind how much I longed to dance the role of Marie (the equivalent of the child, Clara, in the Balanchine Nutcracker) when I was a child, but it was believed by the artistic director in that U.S. company that the world wasn't ready for a black Marie," writes DePrince. https://www.allure.com/story/michaela-deprince-first-black-sugarplum-fairy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, alison said: Well, I have been known to wonder how on earth that particular Romeo had two white parents - but then, all sorts of silly things strike me in the middle of ballets from time to time! I'm not sure that is silly, in fact; ballet is a visual art so the way dancers look does matter. But it's then a question of suspending disbelief, so to speak, in order to enter into the performance. Normally that's easy, but I did find it quite a struggle, for example, to believe that Kristen McNally (in spite of her excellent performance) was Rudolf's mother in Mayerling last weekend, since she looked exactly the same age as her putative son. (The age issue bothered me, but the fact that her son looked very different from her didn't; so it's clearly not logical!). Edited October 15, 2018 by bridiem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 12 hours ago, alison said: Well, I have been known to wonder how on earth that particular Romeo had two white parents - but then, all sorts of silly things strike me in the middle of ballets from time to time! That said, I started to wonder if it could have been Romeo I was thinking of, since the Montague parents are onstage for barely 5 minutes in the MacMillan production, and not someone I tend to focus on. Perhaps it was a different ballet. I've certainly looked at both Capulet parents in that first scene and wondered things like whether two blonds could produce a black-haired child, and probably vice versa too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 4 hours ago, bridiem said: I did find it quite a struggle, for example, to believe that Kristen McNally (in spite of her excellent performance) was Rudolf's mother in Mayerling last weekend, since she looked exactly the same age as her putative son. You could always get past this by recalling that the real Empress Elisabeth was very preoccupied with her looks and figure and their preservation 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 16 hours ago, alison said: Well, I have been known to wonder how on earth that particular Romeo had two white parents - but then, all sorts of silly things strike me in the middle of ballets from time to time! ....and you could always get past this by assuming that he was adopted! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Dancer Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 14/10/2018 at 01:07, alison said: The latter, as we discovered in Mitchell's obituaries, was a deliberate "political" and artistic decision by Balanchine. For the Caterpillar, it seems to me that skin colour is a, if not the, major casting consideration. And when was the last time that a white actor was cast as Othello in the UK in any significant production? Well I am not sure that colour needs to be the major casting consideration for the Caterpillar ...I can’t remember which company but I think Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland will be done by a local company here in Tokyo and I think they may take a different approaches casting. I am not sure when the last time a white actor was cast as Othello but my surprise was more at the “so normal to have black actors play ‘white’ parts” as that is contrary to the experiences of many of the prominent black actors in the UK who have openly discussed the scarcity of good work in Britain and the fact that they have to go to America... I imagine that there are also people asking about the last time a Black opera singer in the UK was cast as Aida in a significant production. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Richard LH said: ....and you could always get past this by assuming that he was adopted! I was doing that for Clara in the 19th century: wasn't so sure it would work for 15th(?)-century Verona - and if I knew the play better I might have an idea of whether Shakespeare put in anything that would indicate that he was of Montague blood 54 minutes ago, Jam Dancer said: Well I am not sure that colour needs to be the major casting consideration for the Caterpillar ... Actually, maybe I should take that back. Perhaps the issue is not so much casting the Caterpillar, but the Rajah who "morphs" into him, as dark-skinned. I, in my ignorance, had always assumed that Aida was Egyptian. Is she Nubian, or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 36 minutes ago, alison said: I, in my ignorance, had always assumed that Aida was Egyptian. Is she Nubian, or something? Aida is Ethiopian. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelopesimpson Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Jam Dancer said: Well I am not sure that colour needs to be the major casting consideration for the Caterpillar ...I can’t remember which company but I think Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland will be done by a local company here in Tokyo and I think they may take a different approaches casting. I am not sure when the last time a white actor was cast as Othello but my surprise was more at the “so normal to have black actors play ‘white’ parts” as that is contrary to the experiences of many of the prominent black actors in the UK who have openly discussed the scarcity of good work in Britain and the fact that they have to go to America... I imagine that there are also people asking about the last time a Black opera singer in the UK was cast as Aida in a significant production. Kaufmann in Otello. And totally marvellous he was, too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveclassics Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 10 hours ago, Lizbie1 said: You could always get past this by recalling that the real Empress Elisabeth was very preoccupied with her looks and figure and their preservation And if you look at photos of the real Empress with her carefully cultivated waist-length hair and beautiful complexion she probably did look younger than her unhappy son. Where the ballet is concerned, I remember one dancer who really was about a decade younger than the dancer playing her son. Still looked very convincing in performance. Linda 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Newcombe Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 One of those weird things re casting. The Empress on Friday danced her own daughter on Saturday 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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