Royal Ballet Insight and In Rehearsal discussion

[Richard LH]

2 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

I don’t think it’s for me or other non-Indian people to judge how offensive or inoffensive La Bayadere is to Indian people

The problem I have with that,  Lizbie, is it suggests only a particular group of people are entitled to a view on what is offensive. I think people outside the most likely potential "victims" of an offence can, and indeed should, also be able to make a reasonable judgement one way or the other. In this case I do think it is valid to opine, though not being Indian, that there are no real grounds for being offended by the general context in which La B is set.

By the same token, and as an example, I also think, though white,  I can validly express distaste and discomfort about some of the "blacking" of characters which has been seen in earlier productions. I hope this aspect has been modified in the latest production.

[capybara]

55 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

By the same token, and as an example, I also think, though white,  I can validly express distaste and discomfort about some of the "blacking" of characters which has been seen in earlier productions. I hope this aspect has been modified in the latest production.

 

I believe that you must be referring to Russian productions of La Bayadere, Richard. IIRC Makarova's version has only ever had one character with an altered skin colour and that is the Bronze Idol.

[Richard LH]

28 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

I believe that you must be referring to Russian productions of La Bayadere, Richard. IIRC Makarova's version has only ever had one character with an altered skin colour and that is the Bronze Idol.

I wasn't too sure if that was so, but thanks for explaining this.

I don't think anyone would object to that one skin change, on behalf of the bronze idol community or otherwise.

[Saodan]

55 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

I believe that you must be referring to Russian productions of La Bayadere, Richard. IIRC Makarova's version has only ever had one character with an altered skin colour and that is the Bronze Idol.

 

The Fakirs are dressed in what can only really be described as blackface. I normally have very little patience for claims of cultural appropriation and such, but have to admit that I find their costumes off putting. Fakirs are essentially Muslim hermits and whilst I have no problem with their presence or the choreography, I'm not sure that painting the dancers black is necessary. This is the only thing that I think should be changed about this production.

 

The image is from the DVD with Rojo and Acosta from 2011 so a change may have been made in the last run.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Saodan

[alison]

I thought at best they were a sort of charcoal grey, but I think even that has been toned down over the years: I'm not even sure they still have any skin paint at all, but then it's been some considerable time since the RB performed it.

 

[Xandra Newman]

The RB last performed La Bayadere in 2013. There was also talk about the same issue (unnecessary in my view but this is how things have become nowadays...)

A Forum member called Dischuffed said "The production is a reasonable one (I personally find all the Orientalist schtick ridiculous and borderline racist, but I can tolerate it better in older ballets than new works (there really is no excuse for the Arabian slaving scene in ENB's Nutcracker, or the Caterpillar's "harem" in Alice - why incidentally is this always stereotypically cast with the darkest skinned male dancers in the RB??))"

[Tony Newcombe]

Hasn’t Nicol Edmonds danced the Caterpillar

[Richard LH]

11 hours ago, Saodan said:

 

The Fakirs are dressed in what can only really be described as blackface. I normally have very little patience for claims of cultural appropriation and such, but have to admit that I find their costumes off putting. Fakirs are essentially Muslim hermits and whilst I have no problem with their presence or the choreography, I'm not sure that painting the dancers black is necessary. This is the only thing that I think should be changed about this production.

 

The image is from the DVD with Rojo and Acosta from 2011 so a change may have been made in the last run.

 

 

Yes thanks Saodan, you are quite right.  I have that RB DVD (actually recorded in 2009) and I do now recall those fakirs would have been some of the ones that I had in mind. 

 

[capybara]

I had forgotten that the Fakirs were once very dark. Last time (2013), I seem to recall them having their own skin tone but with various degrees of black striping.

Either way, there is a need for the RB to 'proceed with caution'. 

[Sim]

3 hours ago, Tony Newcombe said:

Hasn’t Nicol Edmonds danced the Caterpillar

Yes.  

[Sim]

Interesting....the “racist” aspect of the dark skin colour of the fakirs never occurred to me. I have always thought they are that charcoal hue because they are the keepers of the fires 🔥 and therefore they have that charred tinge like we get if we have an outdoor fire.  I am obviously just naive.   

[Lizbie1]

15 hours ago, Richard LH said:

The problem I have with that,  Lizbie, is it suggests only a particular group of people are entitled to a view on what is offensive. I think people outside the most likely potential "victims" of an offence can, and indeed should, also be able to make a reasonable judgement one way or the other. In this case I do think it is valid to opine, though not being Indian, that there are no real grounds for being offended by the general context in which La B is set.

 

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree!

 

15 hours ago, Richard LH said:

By the same token, and as an example, I also think, though white,  I can validly express distaste and discomfort about some of the "blacking" of characters which has been seen in earlier productions. I hope this aspect has been modified in the latest production.

 

IMO the validity of this opinion comes from decades of black people telling us that blackface is offensive.

[Lizbie1]

1 minute ago, Sim said:

Interesting....the “racist” aspect of the dark skin colour of the fakirs never occurred to me. I have always thought they are that charcoal hue because they are the keepers of the fires 🔥 and therefore they have that charred tinge like we get if we have an outdoor fire.  I am obviously just naive.   

 

In fairness, I had often wondered this myself: however I think it's sufficiently open to interpretation, or perhaps misconception, that it's worth changing.

[Sim]

2 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

In fairness, I had often wondered this myself: however I think it's sufficiently open to interpretation, or perhaps misconception, that it's worth changing.

I disagree, but I don't want to use this thread to go down that road.   

[Richard LH]

44 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree!

Yes we can agree that !

[Timmie]

On 27/10/2018 at 10:37, Sim said:

I disagree, but I don't want to use this thread to go down that road.   

 

Sim I hope this follow up is acceptable and hopefully illuminating.

I watched the RB La Bayadere Blu-ray today and the Fakirs really are grey rather than ‘blacked up’ so I thought I’d have a quick Google. ‘The Mystics, Ascetics and Saints of India’, 1903, by John Campbell Oman, says that Sadhus (Hindu version of Fakir as far as I can tell) rub their skin all over with ashes for protection from the sun’s rays and insects. The ash is sifted down to a fine powder so gives a good covering.

Google says this about the book I referred to: “This work has been selected by scholars as being culturally important, and is part of the knowledge base of civilization as we know it.”

[Richard LH]

Thanks for explaining the context of this, Timmie.

[Timmie]

You're welcome Richard . I found it quite interesting. Definitely getting into a La Bayadere frame of mind now.

[Sim]

So my theory was on the right track!   Thanks Timmie.

[Richard LH]

9 hours ago, Timmie said:

You're welcome Richard . I found it quite interesting. Definitely getting into a La Bayadere frame of mind now.

Indeed - dress rehearsal today !  I wonder which cast will be on stage...

[Richard LH]

Sorry if this has been made clear elsewhere, but what exactly is the etiquette expected on the Forum about commenting on a Dress Rehearsal?  I am thinking of what I should or should not post about yesterday's DR of La Bayadere. 

[Xandra Newman]

I recall from the past that we would never comment on a Dress Rehearsal as it is only a rehearsal and not a public performance, dancers may mark their role or dance "under" in order to preserve their energy for afternoon rehearsals so it's not really fair to comment on any performer during a Dress Rehearsal. 

[bangorballetboy]

9 minutes ago, Xandra Newman said:

I recall from the past that we would never comment on a Dress Rehearsal as it is only a rehearsal and not a public performance, dancers may mark their role or dance "under" in order to preserve their energy for afternoon rehearsals so it's not really fair to comment on any performer during a Dress Rehearsal. 

 

This is my preference also.

[Richard LH]

Thanks Xandra and BBB. I was not proposing to post anything critical about any performer, but I note for example cast details have already been posted elsewhere, and I recall posters about earlier DRs have said things along the lines of " you are in for a treat"...

[miriskusnik]

Apologies if this is off-topic, but I haven't (yet!) attended a rehearsal and I was curious about the casting. Is it usually the first cast who performs? Would this depend on whether the rehearsal is the same day as a performance? Any tips on making educated guesses about the casting would be very much appreciated! 

[John Mallinson]

It depends on the relation of the rehearsal to the opening night. Bayadère, for example had its general rehearsal yesterday with the first cast and it opens tomorrow. Sometimes the rehearsal and opening are on the same day in which case it won't be first cast, probably second or another. Casting is never announced publicly in advance but you can phone the ballet office at ROH to find out.

 

[miriskusnik]

17 minutes ago, John Mallinson said:

It depends on the relation of the rehearsal to the opening night. Bayadère, for example had its general rehearsal yesterday with the first cast and it opens tomorrow. Sometimes the rehearsal and opening are on the same day in which case it won't be first cast, probably second or another. Casting is never announced publicly in advance but you can phone the ballet office at ROH to find out.

 

That answers all my questions! Thanks so much for sharing these details - really appreciate it. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by miriskusnik

[alison]

13 hours ago, Richard LH said:

Sorry if this has been made clear elsewhere, but what exactly is the etiquette expected on the Forum about commenting on a Dress Rehearsal?  I am thinking of what I should or should not post about yesterday's DR of La Bayadere. 

 

Clarifying: this is the RB Insight and "In Rehearsal" thread, which is not the same as dress rehearsals anyway.  Don't the RB put something about how the DR should be approached on the cast sheet?  They used to, back in my day, something about not treating it as a performance - so I guess that still applies.  Certainly be aware that it is just that - a rehearsal, and has a different function from a performance, so e.g. dancers may not be dancing flat out.

[Sim]

They were certainly dancing flat out yesterday!  We got a full performance, not a rehearsal.  We were very lucky.

[Richard LH]

9 hours ago, Sim said:

They were certainly dancing flat out yesterday!  We got a full performance, not a rehearsal.  We were very lucky.

Yes they were...and we were indeed very lucky. It was great to see and bodes well for tonight's opening night and the rest of the run. The Shades white act was just brilliant - well done girls! The rehearsals, such as  we saw on World Ballet Day, have certainly paid off. 

Campbell's  virtuoso spot as the Bronze Idol was received particularly warmly. 

[capybara]

4 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

Campbell's  virtuoso spot as the Bronze Idol was received particularly warmly. 

 

As is the case with Ali in Le Corsaire, The Bronze Idol usually garners the most applause in La Bayadere.

 

 

[Richard LH]

Yes it is literally a bright, stand-out moment. 

[Richard LH]

Perhaps  one reason for the full-on dress rehearsal was that it was being filmed, presumably as back up/infill  for the  live screening and hopefully a disc release.