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Claudia Dean's thoughts on when to go full time


DD Driver

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These are obviously her own thoughts and solely based on her individual experience. Claudia Dean, who was a Corps dancer at the RB, talks about "her professional career", a career which lasted about three years. I have actually commented on the issue of early intensive training: see another Post on this Forum under the heading "Miko Fogerty".

Edited by Xandra Newman
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There’s been lots of research recently on early specialisation in sport and findings indicate there are risks including higher injury, psychological stress & ill health, and a greater drop-out rate. 

 

To my knowledge no similar research exists in dance although it should!

Edited by drdance
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There seems to be a few issues at play when looking at full-time training for younger dancers i.e. the physical load, education and maintaining other hobbies and interests..

 

In terms of the physical load ... students still at mainstream academic schools can be doing as many dance hours as a full-timer at a dance school.  My dd (not full time) and I are having  ongoing discussions about how she can reduce her hours.  There have been tears!  We are also seeing a physio about more strength work, using the right muscles and understanding warning signs of problems. 

 

Education is another question - maybe for another day.  Mainstream schools have there own issues and these fill the newspapers.  Tutoring after schools is becoming more common and at an earlier age.  Children are hunched over electronics for both education and social purposes ... You know how it goes.

Edited by DD Driver
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3 hours ago, drdance said:

There’s been lots of research recently on early specialisation in sport and findings indicate there are risks including higher injury, psychological stress & ill health, and a greater drop-out rate. 

 

To my knowledge no similar research exists in dance although it should!

Interesting you should say that. I recently attended a seminar run by the governing body of one of my son's sports about young  athlete development. They put up a chart outlining the advised types and amount of training that children of different ages should be doing, and up to about 16 there was quite an emphasis on playing other sports, and a strong message to parents that they should not be 100% focused on a single sport at a very young age. The reasons weren't fully explained to be honest, but I'd assumed it was a lot to do with psychological well being and not narrowing the options too soon. It's interesting to hear that there may be even more to it than that.

And yes, it does seem to be different in dance. If anything, my DD was actively discouraged from doing other things.

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Bravo, Claudia! She certainly knows there's a huge audience of impressionable kids listening to her (I saw 25,000 views on one of her YouTube videos). I do wish she had defined 'full-time' though, as even the NZ private schools combining dance with academics do half and half study and dance classes for 13-15 year olds.

 

Dancers we know of DD's age (14) who want to train for a career are definitely doing 20+ hours a week including Pilates, contemporary, body conditioning and anything else they add to the mix. Many dance 7 days a week, and may have weekly ballet privates with three different teachers (for technique, competition work, and extra RAD coaching for exams). They are at school as well. I certainly wonder where the balance is sometimes!

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2 hours ago, Cara in NZ said:

Dancers we know of DD's age (14) who want to train for a career are definitely doing 20+ hours a week including Pilates, contemporary, body conditioning and anything else they add to the mix. Many dance 7 days a week, and may have weekly ballet privates with three different teachers (for technique, competition work, and extra RAD coaching for exams). They are at school as well. I certainly wonder where the balance is sometimes!

 

Yes I agree.  Bravo to Claudia for talking about this.  Maybe this is more of a US/Aust/NZ phenomenon.  Less vocational schools on offer and also easier access  to & cultural acceptance of Distant Ed. or homeschooling. 

 

As Cara points out, many young dancers are doing big hours after school and in the weekends  - which would equal or exceed that of a full time ballet student. It is especially true of those doing modern dance.  Ballet studios tend to more actively keep an eye on the hours compared to other types of dance studios. There is a lot of compulsory rehearsal time required for group comps.   I understand that dance is the 2nd most popular 'sport' in many Australian girls' high schools after netball.  Kids can be dancing for both their school and their studio.

 

In local classical ballet schools - offering fulltime programs -  I know that they do try to monitor the students' load and pace them e.g. every day will start with 1 hour of warm-up/pilates/pbt etc. and they prohibit any other dancing outside of their own studio timetable.  Also, as these schools are private, it is easier for a student to be part of the program but tailor their attendance to their own needs (fees would be fixed though).  This puts the onus on the parents to take ownership!

Edited by DD Driver
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Wow, this video has made me feel better about myself and the decisions that we made!!  I took my dd out of Elmhurst in year 8 for a number of reasons, and posts like this make me even more certain that we did the right thing.  The lovely Errol Pickford also supported us, as he thought that experiencing other sports and a normal life was very important too.  I have always wondered what happens to those that start in year 7, how many of them go on to become dancers?  Would be an interesting piece of research to interview some older people who have gone through the system and see how they think it affected their lives.  :) 

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I was interested that Claudia Dean refers to having spoken to friends who went through White Lodge and suggests that that type of vocational school is not what she is discussing as there is a balance of academics and dance. It does seem to be the US/Aus/NZ system of extremely concentrated coaching and online schooling that comes under fire from her if started before 15. (At least that was my impression, which may of course be quite wrong.)

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It is interesting to note that some of Claudia Dean's coaching students are amongst those young ones doing a version of full time.

 

She will have put a few backs up amongst these schools and the parents of her own students...I was surprised that she did not soften her words a bit to acknowledge that the ballet schools involved could and do make an effort to customise programs for younger students.  The faculty at these schools, in my experience, are very realistic about employment in the ballet world and explaining that so much of this is out of your own control.   In contrast, Claudia Dean is more of a motivator,  'you can do this', type of person. 

 

Also how you choose to educate your child, within the law, is a personal decision.  Ken Robinson's TED talks definitely resonated at this end of the world!

https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity#t-557236

https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms

Edited by DD Driver
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DD Driver, yes I did wonder if there might be repercussions for speaking so frankly! I also note that by calling what she does 'coaching', she is avoiding the fact that (as far as I can tell), she doesn't actually have teaching qualifications?

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I don't know about repercussions for speaking so frankly in her video but yes Claudia Dean can only call herself "a coach"/"a motivator". She is not a qualified ballet teacher holding a Teacher's Diploma.

 

A Dance Teacher's course (at The Royal Ballet School for example) is a two-year course, and only on completion of this course one becomes a fully qualified ballet teacher. 

 

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/train/dancer-training/dance-teacher-training/diploma-of-dance-teaching/

 

https://www.royalacademyofdance.org/join/become-a-teacher-1

 

Claudia Dean simply managed to turn her three year spell with The Royal Ballet into a money making enterprise, lots of impressionable young ballet trainees in Australia and NZ follow her...Good for her if she can make a living out of this.

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8 minutes ago, Xandra Newman said:

only on completion of this course one becomes a fully qualified ballet teacher. 

 

Well, I'm not so sure about this: I've been taught by people with no obvious formal qualifications, and I've been taught by people with certificates etc. One of the least effective teachers I studied with as a teenager had her RAD Solo Seal and teacher's certification, but had never danced professionally, and indeed never ventured past the small town we all lived in. She was not really a very good teacher. By contrast, another teacher in the town had danced professionally around the world, and his studio produced professional dancers (my sister was one of them). 

 

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I am not talking about who is a good teacher or who is a bad teacher. All I am saying is that you can only call yourself an officially qualified dance teacher upon completion of an officially accredited Dance Teacher's course.

 

I have had nurses looking after me after a long spell in a hospital and they were more caring than some doctors. The nurse wasn't going to call herself a doctor because she was much better (in caring for patients) than the doctor.

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As far as I am aware anyone can call themselves a dance teacher, the term does not have protected status.  They cannot however claim to be qualified with any particular body if they are not.  It also doesn't stop anyone (as one particular "teacher" has done setting up their own unaccredited exam board and teaching "qualifications".

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1 hour ago, Xandra Newman said:

I am not talking about who is a good teacher or who is a bad teacher. All I am saying is that you can only call yourself an officially qualified dance teacher upon completion of an officially accredited Dance Teacher's course.

 

I have had nurses looking after me after a long spell in a hospital and they were more caring than some doctors. The nurse wasn't going to call herself a doctor because she was much better (in caring for patients) than the doctor.

 put the keys  down and step away from the JCB ! 

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So now I am a bit more educated!

but no offense intended Xandra -  I think your point was that ballet schools might be offended by such blanket criticisms from someone who is  - kind of - an outsider.  

I feel that there is a valid concern around young students doing excessive hours  and this can be happening whether a 'full-timer' or a part-timer.  I find that most teachers at ballet schools (usually RAD or Cechetti around here) do try to look after their students and are quick to recommend physios or taking time off if someone appears to be taking too much on.  I think it would have been great if Claudia had acknowledged this in the video and averted a potential us and them situation, that's all.

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As pictures says, anyone can indeed be a dance teacher, as the qualifications available only mean that you are authorised to advertise that you have qualified with that particular board's course, can teach their syllabus and enter pupils for their exams. (I think the RBS course is the only exception.) Most of the currently employed performing dancers who teach at intensives and master classes do not have any formal qualification.  

Even in the Academic sector, to teach in a state school you need PGCE,  but the private sector can employ who they think fit!

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1 hour ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

Whilst I have no idea what that statement is supposed to mean the term JCB (they sponsor an Academy school incidentally) is ingrained as J C BAmford Excavators Ltd is based in my area.  They were very proud when JCB actually made it into the dictionary!


and mr Bamford's products are good at digging large holes  quickly ...  

both the teacher issues and  comparisons between RNs and Medical Practitioners are  places where you  end up in a deep hole quickly 

Edited by Nicola H
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24 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

As pictures says, anyone can indeed be a dance teacher, as the qualifications available only mean that you are authorised to advertise that you have qualified with that particular board's course, can teach their syllabus and enter pupils for their exams. (I think the RBS course is the only exception.) Most of the currently employed performing dancers who teach at intensives and master classes do not have any formal qualification.  

Even in the Academic sector, to teach in a state school you need PGCE,  but the private sector can employ who they think fit!

you don;t need a PGCE to  teach in a state school 

 

you need QTS to be  employed as a Qualified Teacher in the 'state'  sector ... 

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3 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Sorry, I am out of date.  Don't you need a PGCE to obtain QTS?


There are ways to QTS without  getting a PGCE -  there;s still some  Bachelors  in education  around (although i think they are mainly primary  these days) and i'm not sure what (if any ) the terminal academic qualification of some of  SCITT and 'teach first ' type  schemes is . 

There are PGCEs that don't offer QTS  - as they are  a level 7 qualification in  Workplace  or  Further Education  training / teaching ... 

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OFF TOPIC - Having spent 30 years in HE in 3 countries teaching people, many of whom will go into teaching themselves, in a variety of degree programmes (BA, BEd, BC[reative]A[rts]) give me a subject specialist over a raft of teaching qualifications any day at the high school/college level.

 

But to wrench the thread back on-topic, I wonder if when people like Ms Dean set up, apparently without formal qualifications, then the actual work they do & results they achieve have to speak for themselves more than if there is a set of qualifications? Also to say that the kind of coaching Ms Dean does is - as far as I know - reasonably normal/common in the business. My favourite ballet teacher/bad boy, Renato Paroni, is well-known as Ms Rojo's coach. Most dancers coming up to taking on major roles will have coaches =- either privately, or provided by their company. Sometimes dancers have lifelong professional relationships with their coaches.

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12 hours ago, Kate_N said:

But to wrench the thread back on-topic, I wonder if when people like Ms Dean set up, apparently without formal qualifications, then the actual work they do & results they achieve have to speak for themselves more than if there is a set of qualifications? Also to say that the kind of coaching Ms Dean does is - as far as I know - reasonably normal/common in the business. My favourite ballet teacher/bad boy, Renato Paroni, is well-known as Ms Rojo's coach. Most dancers coming up to taking on major roles will have coaches =- either privately, or provided by their company. Sometimes dancers have lifelong professional relationships with their coaches. 

 

Completely agree — but coaching professionals is quite different to coaching young dancers in training. I can see potential for conflicting advice. At DD's dance school, private lessons may only be taken with the school's teaching staff. I'm sure other schools would have similar conditions, although I don't know about Australia. However, plenty of girls from NZ have flown to Brisbane to attend holiday workshops with her (short intensives/workshops are ok, but one-on-one regular coaching wouldn't be)

Edited by Cara in NZ
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1 hour ago, Cara in NZ said:

Completely agree — but coaching professionals is quite different to coaching young dancers in training. I can see potential for conflicting advice. At DD's dance school, private lessons may only be taken with the school's teaching staff. I'm sure other schools would have similar conditions, although I don't know about Australia. However, plenty of girls from NZ have flown to Brisbane to attend holiday workshops with her (short intensives/workshops are ok, but one-on-one regular coaching wouldn't be)

 

You are on the money there,  Cara.  My dd trains in Sydney and a few of her fellow students have done a one-off private lesson or holiday workshop with Claudia in Brisbane or Sydney.  That has not been an issue.  If she was based in Sydney however then it would not be ok! 

 

I imagine some secret sessions go on that will never appear on facebook or instagram.  I know a couple of top Queensland studios (you know, the kind that would have a version of full time training for youngsters) are ok with it but she would want to keep  on their good side!  There are a some elite level coaches out there that make themselves available to students through the student's home studios - so she is in a competitive space.

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Just to take it back to the original post. My good friend trained at WL for all her high school years and it put her off dancing for life! Ended up pursuing a career in mental health, where I met her. (We’re RMN’s tho and not doctors! 😜😜😜) xx

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