What would you cull from the RB repertoire?

[penelopesimpson]

Frankenstein

Acosta's Don Q

Any recent work of Twyla Tharp

Raven Girl

[bridiem]

1 hour ago, zxDaveM said:

 

I hope they never do the clown one with the wailing woman in the pit (name escapes) or most of Glenn Tetley's come to that

 

Pierrot Lunaire. And I LOVE it! But I can't remember if the RB have done it - I wouldn't think it was right for their rep; but then I think that about quite a number of RB works, including many mentioned above, so who knows...

 

I also loved Dances of Albion and would like to see it again.

[bangorballetboy]

1 minute ago, bridiem said:

 

Pierrot Lunaire. And I LOVE it! But I can't remember if the RB have done it.

 

They have - I remember wonderful performances by Ivan Putrov, Deirdre Chapman and Carlos Acosta.

[ninamargaret]

9 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

But aren't the Ugly Sisters part of the long tradition of Pantomime Dames?  I always thought that when Ashton's Cinderella was first produced the feeling was more like seeing your school Headmaster and a teacher dressed up for the end of term Christmas show!  If you look at old films the humour has more feeling and there is also definite pathos.  Today's Ugly Sisters too often just go over the top! 

Not strictly  relevant, but the very best pantomime dame I have seen is,a man called Berwick Kaler who has appeared in York for many years. To me the marvellous thing about him is that although the frocks are outlandishly lavish, he is always a man dressed up as a woman and much funnier because of it.

[alison]

9 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said:

 

They have - I remember wonderful performances by Ivan Putrov, Deirdre Chapman and Carlos Acosta.

 

Mara Galeazzi, Ed Watson ... did Bonelli dance Pierrot?

[JohnS]

I'd love to see Pierrot Lunaire and also MacMillan's Different Drummer - neither of which I've seen.  The recent Barbican MacMillan 'Steps back in time' was a real appetiser for neglected work.

[_emeralds]

3 hours ago, zxDaveM said:

 

I hope they never do the clown one with the wailing woman in the pit (name escapes) or most of Glenn Tetley's come to that

 

😂😂 Pierrot Lunaire! 

 

That really made me laugh. However, I LOVE that ballet.

[ninamargaret]

1 hour ago, _emeralds said:

 

😂😂 Pierrot Lunaire! 

 

That really made me laugh. However, I LOVE that ballet.

Awful thing is that I knew just which ballet was meant! And I loved it too.

[loveclassics]

7 hours ago, Vanartus said:

It's not so much about political correctness but appropriate kindness. Widow Simone works because she's ultimately a good egg. Problem with the sisters is a) the term "ugly" and b) the fact the fact that the period costumes plus the choreography aren't the strongest mix in the Ashton ballet. Ultimately they're lonely and unhappy and spoilt and etc etc but there is redemption at the end. But it's hard to make it work. 

 

I've seen the Wheeldon Cinderella on TV and one of the things I liked about it was that one of the 'Ugly' sisters found happiness at the end with the Prince's friend.  Otherwise the pathos of the sisters can rather spoil things.

 

Linda

Edited July 30, 2018 by loveclassics
punctuation

[jm365]

Nureyev was also pretty good - though I'm among those who don't ever want to see it again -- because of the 'music' rather than because of the choreography.

[loveclassics]

6 hours ago, zxDaveM said:

 

Raven Girl was McGregor, but otherwise agree with most of this list - though I don't mind Alastair's work (I really liked the last one he did), and did quite like Human Seasons. Don Q was quite fun - but if I never saw it again I wouldn't cry over it; same for Frankenstein

I'd stick up for a lot of McGregor's work - notably Infra, Woolf Works and Chroma - but Multiverse was shockingly horrid

I'd happily cull a good many of MacMillan's one act pieces (especially Judas Tree) such as Las Harmanas, The Invitation and the like. I'm much happier watching the likes of Gloria, Requiem, Song of the Earth, Rite of Spring or Concerto

I hope they never do the clown one with the wailing woman in the pit (name escapes) or most of Glenn Tetley's come to that

 

Do you mean 'Pierrot Lunaire"?  I'd happily confine that to the vaults.

 

Linda

[loveclassics]

Sorry, I hadn't seen the other posts but Pierrot is definitely one I'd go a long way to avoid.

 

Linda

[jmb]

Nobody, but nobody is going to agree with me, and maybe I'll be flung into the outer darkness, but I'd get rid of La Fille Mal gardee. Why? In a word, Alain. I love the wonderful pdds between Lise and Colas. But then poor, deluded, eternally open and friendly, eternally mocked Alain appears. And no, this is not political correctness. I have personal experience of the effect of such casual and disregarded mockery on the disabled, in this case the physically rather than the mentally disabled. My sister-in-law's sister was profoundly physically handicapped, and her life was made even more difficult by the attitude of admittedly a small minority of people who employed similar mockery. 

And it's all so unnecessary. Last year Queensland Ballet staged Marc Ribeau's re-working, in which Alain was clumsy, but nothing more. There are a million possibilities involving children choosing partners other than those approved by their parents, so why mock someone with limited means of comeback.  I thought the choreography in QB's case was pretty ho hum, but the poor guy was up against Ashton. Anyway, that's my two bobs worth.

[aliceinwoolfland]

^ I agree - there’s nothing particularly funny about ‘punching down’.

[Bruce Wall]

I read with admiration jmb's notation regarding the culling of Fille where he/she/they suggests:  'Nobody, but nobody is going to agree with me'.  You have given me courage as many here will I'm certain want to lynch me for my suggestion that Mayerling should be culled at this present time; i.e., in the age of '#MeToo'.  (Currently I, myself, would not cull either Oneign or Jewels myself; nor key works from the McGregor oeuvre.)  I have often found myself from the get-go wanting to wretch at some elements of Mayerling - certainly in the manner of the depiction for/with the prostitutes by the ensemble.  I understand the reality of the historical precedent.  I don't have a problem with it on that ground.  My concern lies ENTIRELY in the manner of the depiction.  (I find with others a similar concern with The Judas Tree.)   Certainly I find Mayerling extreme in this instance.  Indeed I always have.   I do not find such extremity in, say, Flight Pattern which also deals with cruel historical realities.  Again, It is NOT the historical subject matter I question; it is the depiction in this instance by the master (in this instance) choreographer in his ballet - one who is a fine craftsman and whose early work I hugely celebrate. 

 

To wit (vis a vis my notations of the times) I often teach/give masterclasses in major UK and international drama schools/departments as part of my work.  Very recently students - both in the UK and abroad - have mentioned that they have found it much easier to work because a bubble of tension - or one perceived as such - has been addressed or at least questioned if - in some quarters - not entirely burst.  (Everything takes time.)  Indeed, - and I must say from my perspective refreshingly - I have noted this myself.  It is - as has been suggested - a different time.  I realise in support of this aspect of Mayerling that many hereabouts may not think it a better one but definingly I feel it must at least be seen as a different one.  I perhaps would not argue this were the specific work in question not to have been significantly filmed - indeed more than once - showing a quality product (in terms of performance) as portrayed by its originating ensemble in, as suggested, earlier/different times.  These (i.e., the public recordings) are vital cultural and sociological documents of very explicit moments in/on the historical balletic framework.  I would simply suggest that times in our world today have changed - certainly in terms of example and practice of such in terms of depiction - and - as such - if I were to steer the cullage (which blessedly I never will) I would try to address such as best I could by thinking hard about putting this particular work to rest (for this time) for that reason.    

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Bruce Wall

[Jan McNulty]

Jmb, I couldn't entirely disagree with you re Alain.

 

I would be interested to know how Alain was originally performed/intended to be performed.  I have always seen him as a rathe gauche, naive young man who has had such a sheltered upbringing that he does not know how to interact with others - hence his dependence on his umbrella and his attempts to interact with the others.  I have felt uncomfortable when I have seen him played as a young man with a mental impairment.  I am happy to say that with the recent revivals by BRB he has been played as the gauche, naive youngster and when characterised in that way I find him to be a very complex, moving young man.

[Bruce Wall]

Thought this poll just released by THE STAGE had some relevance here ... and might be worthy of discussion from a balletic standpoint.

 

Just a suggestion of course.  

Edited July 31, 2018 by Bruce Wall

[ninamargaret]

1 hour ago, Bruce Wall said:

Thought this poll just released by THE STAGE had some relevance here ... and might be worthy of discussion from a balletic standpoint.

 

Just a suggestion of course.  

Totally agree with the results of the poll. I'm getting very tired of producers of plays, ballet, opera or whatever having to rejig their productions just to fit in with whatever are the current sensibilities of audiences. I have largely stopped going to the theatre because I am fed up with gender blind casting - I do not wish to have to stop going to ballet because it has to be sanitised so that it doesn't offend the delicate minds of people. Even factual history is not immune - we know morals and ideas were different in previous centuries, so let's acknowledge it and live with it.

 

And hands off Mayerling!!

[BMC]

I would cull (while noting this is in my ideal world where economic considerations aren't important!):

 

- Romeo & Juliet, for 5-10 years (and not only the RB production but a worldwide moratorium on all productions, it seems to have been done to death)

- Nutcracker, for a couple of years, not least to give the dancers who perform the same roles time after time a bit of a break

- Tales of Beatrix Potter - for ever! Sets my teeth on edge!

- The Acosta Carmen (which I assume has been quietly killed off as just a mistake) and, if it's still on the rep list, the Mats Ek Carmen which I loathed with a passion.

- Corybantic Games - normally I am quite happy to give ballets several chances but have to admit to a slightly sinking heart at the thought of having to sit through this again.

 

Agree about:

 

- Raven Girl - it just doesn't work, despite the re-tweaking;

- Strapless - although I still think something could be salvaged from this;

- Judas Tree - not because of strong feelings about the ballet, but because I think this is one of those occasions when only the talents of a unique dancer, in this case Mukhamedov, can really do it justice and, as he was a 'one-off', I don't think that is going to happen again.

 

Respectfully but passionately disagree about culling:

 

- Fille

- Mayerling

- Onegin

 

Just couldn't bear it ....

[Pas de Quatre]

When I was working at Opera Houses in France, there was a frequently performed operetta "Les Mousequaires au Couvent" where the conspirators are comical figures - think something from Gilbert and Sullivan, or "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition".  So I can never get beyond that when I see Mayerling - too camp by far! 

[penelopesimpson]

19 hours ago, jmb said:

Nobody, but nobody is going to agree with me, and maybe I'll be flung into the outer darkness, but I'd get rid of La Fille Mal gardee. Why? In a word, Alain. I love the wonderful pdds between Lise and Colas. But then poor, deluded, eternally open and friendly, eternally mocked Alain appears. And no, this is not political correctness. I have personal experience of the effect of such casual and disregarded mockery on the disabled, in this case the physically rather than the mentally disabled. My sister-in-law's sister was profoundly physically handicapped, and her life was made even more difficult by the attitude of admittedly a small minority of people who employed similar mockery. 

And it's all so unnecessary. Last year Queensland Ballet staged Marc Ribeau's re-working, in which Alain was clumsy, but nothing more. There are a million possibilities involving children choosing partners other than those approved by their parents, so why mock someone with limited means of comeback.  I thought the choreography in QB's case was pretty ho hum, but the poor guy was up against Ashton. Anyway, that's my two bobs worth.

I SO agree.  I find it a totally sill ballet!

[penelopesimpson]

3 hours ago, ninamargaret said:

Totally agree with the results of the poll. I'm getting very tired of producers of plays, ballet, opera or whatever having to rejig their productions just to fit in with whatever are the current sensibilities of audiences. I have largely stopped going to the theatre because I am fed up with gender blind casting - I do not wish to have to stop going to ballet because it has to be sanitised so that it doesn't offend the delicate minds of people. Even factual history is not immune - we know morals and ideas were different in previous centuries, so let's acknowledge it and live with it.

 

And hands off Mayerling!!

Oh well said, Ninamargaret.  The irony is of course that I doubt the people who, allegedly,  take offense are anything other than virtue signallers.  It is all so tedious.

[Nicola H]

On 31/07/2018 at 19:30, penelopesimpson said:

Oh well said, Ninamargaret.  The irony is of course that I doubt the people who, allegedly,  take offense are anything other than virtue signallers.  It is all so tedious.

do you support 'Blackface' casting ?
 do we return the C16th / c17th when female  roles were played by male juveniles ? 

or  as is  typical for those with privilege  are you  just blind to what you are actually  saying  - and still consider  certain  Protected Characteristics   to be fair game ...  (or worse that there is a hierarchy of  protected  characteristics )

 in terms of Cinderella, the jarring aspect  is  if it's played 'straight' other than the step sisters ...  

either play it 'straight'  or  go the full  nine yards and a have it as 'ballet panto'  with  dragged boys as the step sisters and  the Prince as a  'principal boy' ...

[Jan McNulty]

2 hours ago, Nicola H said:

do you support 'Blackface' casting ?
 do we return the C16th / c17th when female  roles were played by male juveniles ? 

or  as is  typical for those with privilege  are you  just blind to what you are actually  saying  - and still consider  certain  Protected Characteristics   to be fair game ...  (or worse that there is a hierarchy of  protected  characteristics )

 in terms of Cinderella, the jarring aspect  is  if it's played 'straight' other than the step sisters ...  

either play it 'straight'  or  go the full  nine yards and a have it as 'ballet panto'  with  dragged boys as the step sisters and  the Prince as a  'principal boy' ...

 

I find the start of your second paragraph rather offensive assuming that someone is privileged and/or blind to what they are saying.

 

I think, from my point of view, that we cannot impose 21st century values on plays/ballets/operas written when attitudes and sensibilities were different.  Yes, please no more "blackface" casting, assuming that you mean people wearing black makeup.  

 

I have no issues with gender blind/colour blind casting in any roles myself if it is a decent and not sensationalistic production.

 

As far as I am aware The King and I (which is specifically mentioned in the article about the poll)  is based on the memories of Anna Leonowens who was governess to one of the Thai kings in the 1860s.  I'm not sure where colonialism comes into it because Thailand has never been colonised.

[Nicola H]

9 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I find the start of your second paragraph rather offensive assuming that someone is privileged and/or blind to what they are saying.

 

I think, from my point of view, that we cannot impose 21st century values on plays/ballets/operas written when attitudes and sensibilities were different.  Yes, please no more "blackface" casting, assuming that you mean people wearing black makeup.  

 

I have no issues with gender blind/colour blind casting in any roles myself if it is a decent and not sensationalistic production.

 

As far as I am aware The King and I (which is specifically mentioned in the article about the poll)  is based on the memories of Anna Leonowens who was governess to one of the Thai kings in the 1860s.  I'm not sure where colonialism comes into it because Thailand has never been colonised.

everyone views  things  through one  or more lenses,   when those lenses are  more than one it  can be alternate or additive... 

the blindness  to  an issue   through privilege   can  simply  be the 'actual ignorance' of how an issue  effects those who do not ft into the  majority  of a time or place ,i say actual ignorance    as opposed to the wilful ignorance  one sometimes  sees when  an issue  is  raised  and people dismiss  or trivialise it, because they have never experienced it ...  this can cover all sorts of things  - although  obviously  a lot of the coverage  of  such issues does cover  the Equality Act's Protected Characteristics. 

i used the example of  Cinderella   which is play ed straight other than casting  masculine presenting people  to 'poorly' drag up   vs.  playing ti all straight  with  femme presenting step sisters    or conversely  casting it i nthe best music hall  panto tradition  with  the step sisters as 'Dames'  and  Prince charming as a Principal Boy .... 

[LinMM]

Just want a little defend of Fille!

I do understand how some people may feel about the character of Alain but when you have seen a great artist like Alexander Grant play the role of Alain ...who just made him SO sympathetic that you just loved him ...how could you not enjoy such a lovable "ingenue" 

I love it but I can see it also as an ideal ballet for students to dance. 

I would like to see more of the RBS students on the main stage or perhaps this "new" Linbury not just once a year and new works created especially for them as well as ballets which may suit younger dancers.

I suppose I'm not really a good culler....and never all the works of a particular choreographer as there's usually at least a couple that you can enjoy even if not attracted to a general style. 

I tend not to like works where it all gets a bit too manic and too much activity going on on the stage at the same time! 

However in all the years there is only ONE ballet I have nearly walked out of ....not one of the Royals in fact but one of the Ramberts. This was largely because the music was so excruciating .....lots of whistles and squeaks and very loud high pitched sounds including insect like noises.

Luckily it was a shortish piece because I had got to the point where it was like a form of torture to stay any longer but then it ended ...what a relief!! I'm trying to remember the name of it now!! Some of the dancing looked very good but the ear noise meant I couldn't concentrate on that. I'm sure there was a good artistic reason for this "score" but if the Royal ever acquired that Piece I definitely wouldn't go!! 

As a whole there aren't that many ballets I would cull ....just choose not to see some of them so often. 

I would like just a little more Bayadere and Raymonda ......don't want to have to wait till the Russians come to see these....and how about Taming of the Shrew for the Royal? More Bejart pieces please too. Could the Royal ever acquire Spartacus? 

 

 

 

[LinMM]

I think that ballet was Sounddance by Merce Cunninham and the awful music was by David Tudor!

[Don Q Fan]

On 29/07/2018 at 16:13, Lizbie1 said:

Talk on another thread about the difficulty of managing the RB's repertoire prompts me to wonder what I'd be content to see go - not necessarily because I don't like the piece, but because I don't think there's room for everything and so prioritisation is required. (Equally there are ballets I have no interest in seeing that probably should remain in the repertoire - one ballet I would retain, though I'm not a fan, is Alice, as it's native to the RB and seems to be very popular with children.)

 

My main concern, apart from making the general public happy and keeping standards up, would be to retain the RB's distinctive character. I understand the point about wanting to see certain dancers in certain roles, but I like to think of the other parts there would now be room for them to take on

 

For example, off the top of my head I'd be OK with dropping:

 

• Don Quixote and Bayadere (not really part of the RB "story"" and I think the Russians do them better anyway)
• Anastasia (but retain the Kschessinska pdd as a party piece)
• Jewels (this is borderline for me, but I'd sacrifice it to see more of the one-act Balanchines)
• Onegin (nobody said this was an easy job! I'd want to replace it with some RB/SWRB Cranko including Pineapple Poll and the Lady and the Fool)
• The Judas Tree
• Marguerite and Armand

 

NB I'm talking about ballets which have had more than two runs, as I don't think it can be said to be in the repertoire until the third go round.

Don Q, Jewels, Onegin M&A NOOOOOOOO! 

I'd cull all the McGregor and  everything of that ilk!

 

[penelopesimpson]

On 17/08/2018 at 20:35, Don Q Fan said:

Don Q, Jewels, Onegin M&A NOOOOOOOO! 

I'd cull all the McGregor and  everything of that ilk!

 

Really?

 

Woolf Works has more drama and passion and wonderful dancing in one act than Acosta's entire Carmen.  WW moves my soul, DQ makes me yawn!

[Don Q Fan]

10 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

Really?

 

Woolf Works has more drama and passion and wonderful dancing in one act than Acosta's entire Carmen.  WW moves my soul, DQ makes me yawn!

As I said we're all different. Mc Gregor is my worst nightmare. I'll just stick to classical ballet.  

[Fonty]

11 hours ago, Don Q Fan said:

As I said we're all different. Mc Gregor is my worst nightmare. I'll just stick to classical ballet.  

 

The reason I dislike McGregor is that I just don't think his style is appropriate for the ROH. 

 

If I want to see modern ballet, I will go and see a company that specialises in that style of dance.  

 

 

 

 

[Lizbie1]

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

 

The reason I dislike McGregor is that I just don't think his style is appropriate for the ROH. 

 

If I want to see modern ballet, I will go and see a company that specialises in that style of dance.

 

 

Re-visiting Monotones II (prompted by the reviews of Sarasota Ballet) my personal view is that Ashton's piece feels more "modern" and less clichéd 50 years on than anything McGregor has come up with. And that's working squarely within the classical idiom.

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

Re-visiting Monotones II (prompted by the reviews of Sarasota Ballet) my personal view is that Ashton's piece feels more "modern" and less clichéd 50 years on than anything McGregor has come up with. And that's working squarely within the classical idiom

 

I agree with you Lizbie1. I also think Monotones is beautiful and full of soul - something which I find is missing from most of MacGregor's work. Woolf Works is a possible exception.