Royal Ballet School holding more international auditions

[DD Driver]

2 hours ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

 

Gary Norman, former leading faculty, The Royal Ballet School, UK. The participants get a list of scholarships to choose from prior to the semi final. RBS usually offer places for full time, short term and SS. Not sure if they are offering anything this year and who would be presenting 🤔 we will see. 

 

 

Gary Norman is on the list of judges but the list also includes a company dancer from ABT and an AD from YAGP.  So not all judges need to be officially representing a company/school and bearing gifts.

https://yagp.org/misc/Downloads/2019/YAGP 2019 PARIS, FRANCE, JUDGES.jpg

Edited November 3, 2018 by DD Driver

[bangorballetboy]

Gary Norman is no longer a member of staff at the Royal Ballet School.

[Anna C]

For info, here is the list of judges for the Paris round:  https://yagp.org/misc/Downloads/2019/YAGP 2019 PARIS, FRANCE, JUDGES.jpg

[Viv]

On 02/11/2018 at 06:38, taxi4ballet said:

Why are the schools actively, increasingly (and enthusiastically) looking elsewhere? Why can't they find more of what they are looking for here? Why do the majority of places at those schools (and almost all ballet company contracts) go to those from overseas? Where are all the talented youngsters in the UK and what is going wrong at grass-roots level? How is it that, say, Australia (a country with a much smaller population) is bursting at the seams with talent? How come POB rarely feels the need to take anyone who isn't French into their school?

 

I'm going to really throw the cat in among the pigeons here...please try and read this in the completely neutral tone that is intended and know that I'm not trying to insult or diminish anyone. I was just wondering if perhaps the issue isn't with British students' level of talent, or ability to work hard, or their desire for a career in ballet. Perhaps the problem is a sense of...well, entitlement. "This is a British school and I deserve to be there, because I am British. And if I don't get in there, I'll apply for the next 5 schools on my list, that are all within the UK." I don't mean entitlement in a mean way, I mean it like...you are very privileged.  You have the best schools and a number of amazing, world renowned companies in your country, and the relatively small geographic area means that many students are not so far away from high quality training that accessing it is impossible. Obviously non-geographic barriers also apply and I see a lot of parents on this board living in rural areas who are struggling to access enough high quality training for their dancers, I'm not trying to discount this at all. But because you have so much opportunity, new schools opening up every year, associates programs in every major city...I wonder if perhaps the drive to look abroad and compete internationally with 'the best', simply isn't there... In my hometown, which is not large, I can name multiple students who this year are moving to Houston, Melbourne, Sydney, London, St Petersburg, New York, Alberta, Paris and Stuttgart. This year alone and that's just the kids I personally know. How many on this board can say the same thing? How many British students even apply for YAGP, or Prix de Lausanne? Why would they if their dream is to go to RBS and the auditions are happening on their door step? There's literally no reason why a UK dancer wouldn't be talented enough to win the Prix and get the sort of support that these international competition winners have, because they would be an international competition winner! While some countries certainly push their children to do more, earlier, I would say Australia is actually a lot more similar in training to the UK than for example America. Some kids take it to another level, particularly over east, but they're the exception rather than the rule. I would not say that it is either the training or the talent of British students that might be standing in their way, it's the attitude that they don't need to look too far from home until they're trying to get a job. It's even an attitude I've seen a little bit of on this thread. Is it any easier for an Australian to get a visa in the US than a brit? No. But I guarantee a lot more Australians are heading to the New World because they have no other options. Is this fair? Not particularly.

 

Obviously I have the outsider perspective here and while this post might cause offence to some, it's certainly not my intention! I am in no way discrediting or devaluing your children. I know how much they want this, I know the hours they put in, I see it in thread after thread here every day! I would love to be told that my opinion is wrong, that I've misrepresented things, and I'd like to hear responses to this because I know this will not be a very popular idea. I would like to be proved wrong. I just know that it cannot be that your students are less talented, less hardworking or get worse teaching than the rest of the planet. So there must be another reason...and I'm just brainstorming to figure out what that might be. 

[Goldenlily17]

Just steering back  briefly to my original purpose for joining this thread, which was to draw attention to the worrying prospect of those British dancers  who do manage to get through to the end of their training in the UK, who  now risk losing their freedom to work in Europe.   Unable to access companies in the UK, as we have discussed, they must seek work overseas, but if they can only work with 3 month or festival visas this is going to make a tough situation virtually impossible for them, while numbers entering the UK will continue to rise.

 

I am interested in your post Viv, because I would like to hear what you have to say about Australian dancers seeking work in Europe. As we know there are very few companies in Australia and so they must also seek work outside Australia. You mention students who are travelling all over the world to train. How many of students will find work afterwards? Is it as difficult for Australians to get visas to work in the US as it is for the British (British students are told by their schools not to bother auditioning in the USA as it is a waste of money as they won't get a visa)? Is it easier for Australians to work in Asia?  How do Australians see the future when increasing numbers of EU companies seem to be closing auditions to dancers who do not hold EU passports?  Your input would be most valuable. 

 

 

 

[taxi4ballet]

I agree with almost all of what you say Viv.

 

The thing that puzzles me is that when we have access to some of the world's best training and the best schools here, how come British dancers are lagging behind internationally? Everyone knows how hard it is to get into those schools, and that you have to be world class to stand a chance of being offered a place. So I don't think it is complacency or a sense of entitlement at all. If anything, it must be rather demoralising to find that the schools in your own country don't appear to be interested in nurturing home-grown talent, but bust a gut to do everything they can to look for it elsewhere.

 

Hardly any British youngsters are entered into competitions like the Prix - so why not? Do they have access to the right level of solo virtuosity training? Maybe not. RBS doesn't enter its students into international competitions any more. Why is that? 

[Viv]

47 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

The thing that puzzles me is that when we have access to some of the world's best training and the best schools here, how come British dancers are lagging behind internationally? Everyone knows how hard it is to get into those schools, and that you have to be world class to stand a chance of being offered a place. So I don't think it is complacency or a sense of entitlement at all. If anything, it must be rather demoralising to find that the schools in your own country don't appear to be interested in nurturing home-grown talent, but bust a gut to do everything they can to look for it elsewhere.

 

That's where I agree that there is a problem with the attitude of the schools themselves. Perhaps it's something as simple as 'the grass is greener'. It's not that the people auditioning in other locales are more talented, or more deserving, or fit the RBS mould better. Maybe simply by coming from another country, they are increasing the RBS's reputation as being a school that is sought after and coveted above other schools. People come from all over the world to train there, they make amazing sacrifices, so clearly it must be because the school is worth it. Maybe the opinion of the RBS and others like it is that, if they were to take primarily their own compatriots, they would lose that international acclaim and reputation...Though clearly this hasn't hurt POB!

 

51 minutes ago, Goldenlily17 said:

I am interested in your post Viv, because I would like to hear what you have to say about Australian dancers seeking work in Europe. As we know there are very few companies in Australia and so they must also seek work outside Australia. You mention students who are travelling all over the world to train. How many of students will find work afterwards? Is it as difficult for Australians to get visas to work in the US as it is for the British (British students are told by their schools not to bother auditioning in the USA as it is a waste of money as they won't get a visa)? Is it easier for Australians to work in Asia?  How do Australians see the future when increasing numbers of EU companies seem to be closing auditions to dancers who do not hold EU passports?  Your input would be most valuable. 

 

Of the students I personally know who have failed to find work after it, it has usually been because their circumstances have changed, their passion has diminished, or their mental or physical health has been so impacted that a career in ballet is no longer viable  I would say this is a problem that plagues dancers the world over. As far as visas are concerned, many of the students I know are actually dual citizens travelling on UK passports because they have more value than Australian ones! This will probably cease to be the case post-Brexit but we'll see what happens. As for the US, after a quick google search it appears that the visa requirements are exactly the same for Australians and Brits, so I'm not sure why students are told not to bother auditioning there? There's certainly a lot of companies to choose from over there and I know some students who have been encouraged to audition over there as they have a more American 'style' of dancing. I believe Australia might have slightly better luck gaining a visa to Asian Pacific countries like Indonesia, but mainland Asia I think odds are about the same. We certainly have no extra claims to a visa in the ballet hubs of Japan, China and Korea. While Australia loves to claim that it's part of 'Australasia' and all that, most of Asia want nothing to do with us. Pretty similar to Europe, at least as far as Eurovision is concerned. It's just us and New Zealand down here at the bottom of the world with a bunch of penguins. Australians certainly have more rights emigrating to New Zealand than any other country, so that's one thing! As far as difficulty moving to Europe is concerned, I know it's something that concerns a lot of aspiring dancers I speak to here. They know if they want success they have to get up and get out. I think the attitude has mostly been 'become absolutely amazing so some great school offers me a scholarship and then some company, any company, will want me badly enough to sponsor a visa'. There's not really much else they can do...

Edited November 3, 2018 by Viv

[Anna C]

Interestingly Viv, you echo almost exactly what Christopher Powney said in Dancing Times, back in 2015:  https://www.dancing-times.co.uk/january_2015_issue/

 

Personally, I think there are two ways of looking at this.  Looking at my daughter’s peers during the year she auditioned for Upper Schools, the drive and the motivation came mostly from the students.  There were definitely a few families where it appeared that having a dancing child was the dream of the parent, but on the whole I think we have far fewer “Tiger Moms” in the UK than there typically are in other countries.  In my humble opinion, a dancer who graduates and gets a contract is more likely to keep dancing in the long term if the dance dream was theirs in the first place.  As an example I’m thinking about Miko Fogarty, whose Mother - I think it’s fair to say - certainly seemed to be the driving force in Miko’s competition years. 

 

Then there’s the importance we in the UK tend to put on academic schooling.  I know Marianela Nuñez got her first contract at 14 and joined the Royal Ballet aged 16.  She’s been unencumbered by injury and was undoubtedly born to dance and destined for stardom so her lack of schooling has not mattered.  But my goodness, she’s a rarity.  I know home schooling or evening/weekend study alongside high quality daytime training is more widely available in other countries but not in the UK as far as I know.  Most of our students not already at full time lower school training have to attend school all day then try to get good quality training during the evenings and at weekends.  That costs money, as does travelling to Associate schemes, paying for tuition and so on.

 

Schools that have DaDa funding only have means tested support for fees and there is no Government help for accommodation and living costs.  Schools that offer a degree and that are eligible for student loans can be more accessible but now living costs are covered by another loan instead of a grant.   I may be wrong but I believe that there are schools in other countries where tuition (I’m not sure about accommodation) is free for students who are citizens and residents in that country.

 

We have a surprisingly large number of full time schools in the UK turning out many dancers each year.   We have a small number of wonderful companies, some with schools linked to them but whose ADs look at RBS grads first.  The lack of places in general at our top ballet schools, the difficulty getting a paid contract in a ballet company after graduation (and plenty of British dancers travel all over Europe and even to the USA seeking work) and the injuries which can put an abrupt end to training all mean that there are students who suddenly find themselves having to change path but without A Levels or equivalent which are needed for a degree course.  

 

The ballet world is beautiful but it’s also brutal.  As parents, would we be doing our job if we don’t try to ensure that our children are equipped for a life after ballet? I don’t think so.  Does this make our children lazier or more entitled? Not in my opinion.  

 

Do we think it’s reasonable for a certain proportion or even a reasonable number of British students to be able to train at and graduate from British schools?  It seems to work for the French and Russians. 

[DD Driver]

Anna C I totally agree that pursuing ballet needs to be something driven by the child.  YES, it is a parents job to equip our children for life after ballet - or if a career never takes off!  

  

5 hours ago, Anna C said:

Then there’s the importance we in the UK tend to put on academic schooling.

 

I do think, culturally, there can be different perspectives on how to do this.  In the US and Australia/NZ homeschooling is a well-established practice e.g. for religious or access reasons from rural locations or learning difficulties and many more stories.  It does not mean you don't value academic schooling.  (There are inspectors and state institutions that oversee & enforce the child's right to an education! ). It is not uncommon for homeschoolers to be ahead of their age-level grade. 

 

Also, in Australia, I know there is some latitude given for missing schooldays at a mainstream school in order to pursue Sports or Arts. A family then has the responsibility to ensure that the student does any work that was missed. I have seen threads here where UK families have difficulty getting their children time out of school for RAD exams and some people felt this was as it should be.  I can not imagine that conversation happening in Australia. 

 

5 hours ago, Anna C said:

As parents, would we be doing our job if we don’t try to ensure that our children are equipped for a life after ballet? I don’t think so.  Does this make our children lazier or more entitled? Not in my opinion.

 

I hope you did not feel that was being said! 

Edited November 3, 2018 by DD Driver

[DD Driver]

7 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

 How do Australians see the future when increasing numbers of EU companies seem to be closing auditions to dancers who do not hold EU passports?  Your input would be most valuable. 

 

Goldenlily17, I think Australian parents will take a few minutes longer to really understand the impact of Brexit on their DC's.  Probably work even harder to get into local options e.g. ok DD you can go fulltime Ballet and fulltime Rhythmic Gymnastics at 10 years old - ha ha.

[Anna C]

DD Driver no, I don’t think anyone here was calling British students lazy!  ☺️ But in the 2015 interview Christopher Powney mentions them “resting on their laurels” and having a sense of entitlement, the latter being mentioned by Viv too.  I don’t see it and I think that as parents, exhibiting caution about our children potentially sacrificing everything for ballet - sometimes with no backup plan - is sensible, not entitled.

[Anna C]

I meant to add too that the UK education system does indeed make life more difficult for aspiring dancers.  My daughter was always very fortunate that her academic school was fully supportive of her ballet exams, physio appointments and so on (it probably helped that she was an A/A* student!) but others certainly have real difficulty getting their schools to take ballet seriously.  Even if more UK ballet students were home schooled, top quality daytime training is a rarity over here.  The Australian system seems much more conducive to balancing ballet and academics.

[glissade]

Homeschooling in the UK is the exception, not the norm. It is difficult for parents of children with learning difficulties to reach a decision where they feel confident to withdraw their children from mainstream schooling ..... to withdraw a child because you, as their parent, are confident that they need to drop all extraneous curricular activities in order to focus on one sole passion that you may or not be able to resource financially and tecnically ....... It has to be a leap of faith that could far too easily turn into a leap of folly.

[Goldenlily17]

I am not sure I buy the idea that British students don't succeed out of a sense of entitlement. I think that it was rather shocking that Christopher Powney said something so disparaging and inappropriate given that he is the head of a British institution. It is the sort of remark which would lead to outrage in other walks of public life, and possibly to the individual who made that comment being forced to resign. It has the smell of an attempt to deflect his own lack of interest in  British students by finding fault in the vulnerable, and that sort of remark is exactly the attitude which leads to the kind of low self-esteem evidenced by British students. Having battled to win a place in a  top school, which as we know are extremely difficult to get into, they realise that they are not being trained in a level playing field, but that there is a sort of unspoken two-tier system whereby favourite international students (yes, with influential sponsors who expect a return for their money) are promoted and that they are marking time before they are dropped. This is especially iniquitous and irresponsible at RBS because British students have no choice but to reduce their higher education by dropping 2 of their A levels.  

Surely the most talented students in all countries should feel entitled to a place in national institution originally set up to train the best students within that country, and funded by taxes paid by their parents? Isn't the primary purpose of a national ballet school to train the young talent of that country? I am sure this is taken for granted in most countries. Almost 50% of the funding received by the RBS comes from the Department of Education. Should the Department of Education be spending all this money supporting an institution and paying teachers who are not acting in the best interests of the British children.

[Dancermum2003]

Well said Goldenlily 

[taxi4ballet]

1 hour ago, Anna C said:

DD Driver no, I don’t think anyone here was calling British students lazy!  ☺️ But in the 2015 interview Christopher Powney mentions them “resting on their laurels” and having a sense of entitlement

As far as I am aware, (and I need to be careful here as it is only hearsay) it was apparently a remark directed at the students at RBS upper school at the time. That's what one of them told me, anyway.

[Viv]

3 hours ago, DD Driver said:

I do think, culturally, there can be different perspectives on how to do this.  In the US and Australia/NZ homeschooling is a well-established practice e.g. for religious or access reasons from rural locations or learning difficulties and many more stories.  It does not mean you don't value academic schooling.  (There are inspectors and state institutions that oversee & enforce the child's right to an education! ). It is not uncommon for homeschoolers to be ahead of their age-level grade. 

 

Also, in Australia, I know there is some latitude given for missing schooldays at a mainstream school in order to pursue Sports or Arts. A family then has the responsibility to ensure that the student does any work that was missed. I have seen threads here where UK families have difficulty getting their children time out of school for RAD exams and some people felt this was as it should be.  I can not imagine that conversation happening in Australia. 

 

@DD Driver I think this is a very important consideration! In fact I think it goes further than that in Australia. In the UK it appears that you need a certain number of high quality A Levels during high school, and if you don't achieve these then it becomes very difficult to complete them later on and access university education. In Australia I can think of at least 3 or 4 different ways to access university, both in and out of high school. The most common is to sit at least 4 ATAR subject exams and receive a ranking against every other child examined in the country. ATAR subjects are just as readily available to homeschool children as they are to mainstream school children.The higher your ranking, the more exclusive the course and university you can attend. But even if you do poorly in a particular ATAR subject, there are a number of bridging courses you can take to catch up before starting your actual course. And ATAR is entirely separate from graduating Year 12 and getting a school leaving certificate, because it is recognised that exams are not going to suit every individual. There is also portfolio-based entry into university, which admittedly is harder and more common in Arts courses, but is about showing the quality of your school work over the course of the year, rather than your abilities in one highly stressful exam. I have many friends from my high school days who were accepted into degree courses this way. If you choose not to apply for university at 17, which I personally feel should be more encouraged than it is, then upon reaching the truly ancient age of 20, you are considered a mature aged student and both your ATAR and your portfolio are completely discarded. There is a different sort of exam you have to take to prove your eligibility for uni education and most people do far better at this with a little bit more age and experience under their belt, and also because now they usually know what the goal is to study at uni, rather than applying because everyone else is and they don't know what else to do. Other people start their education at the vocational training college, TAFE, and through learning in a different environment to high school, become more confident in their own abilities, often achieve far better marks overall, and use these marks to get into university. In my own experience, I did not achieve the requisite ATAR to get into a law program, mostly because I was one of those people who didn't know what they wanted to do and so put as little effort as possible into my schooling. I was also beset with low confidence in my academic abilities (I thought I was dumb, and that if you were dumb that was set in stone, not that the 'smart' kids actually went to school and then also studied at home. Oops). I found that the self-directed learning at university level, and being able to specialise in a niche subject area (anthropology) really benefitted me, and I ended up scoring far better marks than many of the people I went to school with who had a higher ATAR. I was then able to get into a post-graduate law course where once again, I have managed to balance full time work, 14 hours of ballet training a week, caring for a sick parent and I have still maintained a higher average mark than people I know who were top of the class in high school.

 

This is taking things super off topic, but I know a few people were curious about the Australian system versus the UK one. I think this is why Australian parents might seem almost lax about schooling compared to British ones. It's not that they don't value education. It's not that they don't care to set their kids up after ballet. It's not that they don't feel the need for a back up plan. It's not that they are psycho tiger parents (though I've met a few around). It's the child who has to want this career or they won't make it, no matter how much the parent pushes. It's always the incredibly hardworking, hungry students that succeed after about 13/14/15, often to the chagrin of their parents who aren't ready to send them off into the big wide world yet. An attitude I think many here can agree with... The difference is that, Australian parents prepare their kids by making sure they are achieving their best academic results, but the pressure is also slightly off because university is very easy (some might say too easy) for them to attend later on in life. We can justify sending our kids to ballet fulltime and doing school online part of the time, one because the distance education system is VERY good, but also because it's not the only road to Rome. They can dedicate their early adult years to dancing and know that university is waiting for them when they get back. I hope this sheds a bit more light on the situation down under.

 

(PS. I sincerely hope that no one thinks I was calling any child lazy! That is the farthest thing from what I was trying to say. I also didn't mean that any one child is 'entitled', I was trying to apply a bit of a provocative word to a social attitude (anthropologist 😕), not an individuals attitude. And that attitude was more in relation to only looking at British options, because you have so many, and a sense of reluctance to pursue training in other countries. It has nothing to do with their work ethic. I certainly don't see how Christopher Powney can call the kids who make it into classical upper schools 'resting on their laurels'. Obviously each individual has worked exceedingly hard to get where they are! Maybe 'entitled' wasn't quite the right word, now I've had some time to sleep on it...)

Edited November 4, 2018 by Viv

[sarahw]

As a parent of a vocational child I have rarely come across classical students who are entitled. Most are desperate to have the type of training received by those international students helicoptered in for US.

 

I agree that the some schools are shirking responsibilities to British students and to the UK tax payer. Mr Powney's comments were embarrassing - maybe this is why he often misses UK auditions......

[taxi4ballet]

1 hour ago, sarahw said:

As a parent of a vocational child I have rarely come across classical students who are entitled. Most are desperate to have the type of training received by those international students helicoptered in for US.

 

I agree that the some schools are shirking responsibilities to British students and to the UK tax payer. Mr Powney's comments were embarrassing - maybe this is why he often misses UK auditions......

As I think I've mentioned before, he wasn't there when my dd auditioned fos US - he was at the Prix instead. What does that tell you?

[Jan McNulty]

A post has been hidden while it is considered by Moderators as it may breach AUP.

[Hambleton]

4 hours ago, sarahw said:

As a parent of a vocational child I have rarely come across classical students who are entitled. Most are desperate to have the type of training received by those international students helicoptered in for US.

 

I agree that the some schools are shirking responsibilities to British students and to the UK tax payer. Mr Powney's comments were embarrassing - maybe this is why he often misses UK auditions......

 

The quote from Christopher Powney was from a dancing times interview before he joined the school. Hopefully now he has met many more British students in person  at the school, he may have had his mind changed? Matthew Ball’s father wrote a brilliant letter printed in Dancing Times as a response. I can’t find it now ... I have a DS who graduated last year from RBS Upper School, and I personally know of zero British students resting on their laurels at RBS or other schools. The reverse actually, as they’re usually playing catchup with international students, who’ve often been homeschooled for years to concentrate on their dancing (rightly or wrongly). 

[Chellen]

This may be a strange thread on which to finally de-lurk , but as a Canadian family with a highly-motivated ballet student -- we can absolutely see the work ethic of British and European students from quite a distance. No matter what may be said at home -- abroad, the reputations of your students are beyond reproach! In fact, that drive is one of the primary reasons my daughter is so desperate to leave home and pursue training with you! (Should I duck now or at the end of the next paragraph? Ha.)

 

One would think that it would be easy to find truly excellent ballet training in Toronto (a city of 3 million people!), but it is not. The North American style is well-represented, but for children who admire the classical dancers of Europe and Russia and wish to keep up to their standard, there is precious little. However, should my daughter be lucky enough to be accepted to a school overseas, I would hope it is only because she is the best fit, rather than as part of a scheme to market an international reputation. After all of this effort, that would crush her!

[DD Driver]

LearningCurve, I don't think you should duck!  You're just calling it as you see it.

 

It does sound like there is a fantastic opportunity however for someone to head your way and offer an outstanding classical program!

It can be done.  Australian cities are comparatively small in terms of population but there are  schools that consistently produce students (12-18) who are offered places in the top UK, EU and USA schools.  

[Pas de Quatre]

LearningCurve, is there any reason why you aren't looking at the school of Royal Winnepeg Ballet or the Goh academy in Vancouver? Both are Vaganova based and have excellent reputations.

[Chellen]

Hello, all!

 

DD Driver -- Thank you for the encouragement!  The thought of opening a very small, very serious school here has crossed my mind more than once -- if only a couple of eager Russian pedagogues would fall out of the sky!

 

Pas de Quatre -- We have considered both schools and ruled them out for different reasons (likely too specific to be of general interest!) but mainly, if the goal is to dance in Europe or Russia, it's best to train in Europe or Russia. Ballet struggles for support all over the world but in Europe, it remains a part of the cultural fabric -- and I think that counts for something. My daughter has some friends in St. Petersburg (Internet friends!) and it's normal for everyone to love ballet there. She wishes for that every single day of her life.

Edited December 12, 2018 by LearningCurve
Grammar!

[DD Driver]

RBS will be teaching and holding auditions at ARDA's Summer School in December  - Brisbane, Australia.

ARDA is the Annette Roselli Dance Academy.  They posted on their social media, with a more info to follow tag. 

 

Probably runs like the Chicago and San Fran auditions in January i.e. where the audition is preliminary and leads to admission to final audition in London