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Royal Ballet School holding more international auditions


DD Driver

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15 hours ago, Wigglybunny said:

 

I’m our experience, summer school has been great from a young age. I would say there is real benefit if your child is looking to go to lower school and hasn’t been away from home before. My son went aged 10 the year before he auditioned for voc school to see if he could cope being away from home but mainly to see if he liked it. He went to two very different summer schools that year and ended up only auditioning for one because one was right for him and the other (which he thought he would prefer) really wasn’t. He learned lots and from a male perspective, he really benefitted from being in a class of all boys, almost all of whom were older. It was a huge inspiration for him and not something he could have got in many places elsewhere. 

Couldn’t agree more. Also being surrounded by competent dancers from both UK and Overseas, especially the South Koreans and Japanese students,  really inspired my Dd and pushed her to work harder. She would never have been exposed to such excellence if she’d stayed at home! She came from a small school in the Styx where most kids went dancing once a week.

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On 31/07/2018 at 08:39, DD Driver said:

The Australian Ballet ITP (Interstate/International Training Program) students appear to be selected in a similar way to the UK, Canadian etc junior associates.  Various skills are tested at auditions - for 9 yrs and up - but aesthtics seem to play a large part in selection at the younger years i.e. not just facility in terms of turn-out but having the desired look/body type.  

 

(my emphasis)

 

Which is actually either hilariously funny or ridiculously stupid when you think about it. Why? Take a look at the company's dancers. All shapes and sizes, ranging from a particularly tiny Japanese corps member (I'm not 100% sure she's even reached five feet (1.52m) tall) to a six foot four (1.95m) principal. Some of the female dancers have "womanly" shapes, others are like stick insects in the nicest possible way. Some of the males are lean and muscly, other are more boyish in their appearance. Some of the females are five foot nine (1.75m) or taller, at least two of the males are shorter than five foot eight (1.72m).

 

Given all that, how they can continue to justify choosing ITP children based on their look at the age of nine or 11 is beyond me.

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1 hour ago, Sophoife said:

 

 

Which is actually either hilariously funny or ridiculously stupid when you think about it. Why? Take a look at the company's dancers. All shapes and sizes, ranging from a particularly tiny Japanese corps member (I'm not 100% sure she's even reached five feet (1.52m) tall) to a six foot four (1.95m) principal. Some of the female dancers have "womanly" shapes, others are like stick insects in the nicest possible way. Some of the males are lean and muscly, other are more boyish in their appearance. Some of the females are five foot nine (1.75m) or taller, at least two of the males are shorter than five foot eight (1.72m).

 

Given all that, how they can continue to justify choosing ITP children based on their look at the age of nine or 11 is beyond me

 

I know, right!

We went to Australian Ballet Company performance  - Behind the Scenes.  This was a company class and then Spartacus rehearsal on stage this year.  I was gobsmacked (happily) at the range in body types.  Maybe talent and drive can ultimately prevail for some.  That's what I choose to believe.

 

A role model is Carrie Imler who has a womanly figure and was a much loved principal.  She retired last year after 22 years with Pacific Norwest Ballet (PNB).

 

 

 

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Am I the only one that finds it really insulting that these auditions are taking place and being seen as a good thing??? How about some loyalty to British dancers? Do the children in Year 11 at White Lidge know if they have Upper school places yet or is it hanging over them as they see their AD in various places recruiting? 

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1 hour ago, Dancermum2003 said:

Am I the only one that finds it really insulting that these auditions are taking place and being seen as a good thing??? How about some loyalty to British dancers? Do the children in Year 11 at White Lidge know if they have Upper school places yet or is it hanging over them as they see their AD in various places recruiting? 

 

ENB are also casting the net further this year with auditions around the world and in the changes to their summer school programme.

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It’s not a new thing.  ENBS has been auditioning abroad for some years now.  Central holds auditions in Japan and has also started to audition in the USA.  Elmhurst says it holds overseas auditions “from time to time”.  

 

RBS is a world class school, similar to Oxford and Cambridge universities in that it aims to attract the best of the best.  Although Oxford will, on the whole, only interview candidates who will travel to the university in December, Cambridge seems to hold overseas interviews.  It’s obviously easier to apply for uni than ballet school from overseas because the uni interview is the last part of the long and multi-faceted application process whereas for ballet training you have to have preliminary auditions to form your shortlist for Finals.  

 

What these institutions have in common is a reputation to uphold plus the ability to charge higher fees to overseas students.  So from a business point of view, why wouldn’t they audition overseas? 

 

EDITED TO ADD: It appears from the RBS website that they charge the same fees to both UK and International students.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Anna C said:

 

What these institutions have in common is a reputation to uphold plus the ability to charge higher fees to overseas students.  So from a business point of view, why wouldn’t they audition overseas? 

 

 

 

I always assumed that the school got the same amount of money regardless of whether the student was UK or overseas. I thought that if it was a degree, the government paid the difference between the £9250 capped rate and the full fee for UK students. And if there are MDS or Dada awards then similarly the school still receives the same fee, just not all from the student directly. Is it the case that they actually receive more money from overseas students? 

 

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3 hours ago, Anna C said:

What these institutions have in common is a reputation to uphold plus the ability to charge higher fees to overseas students

 

I'm absolutely in agreement, Anna. The UK has some absolutely leading world class educational institutions in various areas - ballet, tertiary education, art schools etc. These institutions still educate mostly lucky UK students/pupils. Students from overseas constitute a comparatively tiny proportion of the total student body. And they pay much higher fees at all levels of education (secondary and HE). I've made this point several times - overseas students subsidise the education of British students and pupils. (And by the way, overseas student fees at universities represent the real cost of a university education - which is - in some subjects - a lot over the current Home/EU tuition fee).

 

We should be rightly proud that the RBS, the ENBS, and Elmhurst attract some of the best aspiring dancers from around the world. British influence via education is going to be one of the things that we'll need to hang on to in the next few years. And how wonderful for British dancers to get to learn alongside such a varied mix of dancers trained in a variety of national styles? All dancers need to have an international outlook - companies all over the world take a mix of all nationalities of dancers - you only have to look at any cast list of any company to see that. 

 

And just to add, in the HE sector, there is some pretty compelling research that suggests that British national students have much to gain from studying with and engaging with international students - not just observing & learning from different styles, and pooling knowledge & understanding, but also making international friendships and networks. Given that we seem set on removing ease of movement across the rest of Europe for our young people, they're going to need all the help they can get in forging international networks for work in the entertainment industry (which is a global industry) in the future. 

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39 minutes ago, BlueLou said:

 

I always assumed that the school got the same amount of money regardless of whether the student was UK or overseas. I thought that if it was a degree, the government paid the difference between the £9250 capped rate and the full fee for UK students. And if there are MDS or Dada awards then similarly the school still receives the same fee, just not all from the student directly. Is it the case that they actually receive more money from overseas students? 

 

 

You’re quite right, BlueLou with regards to RBS - my mistake.  RBS fees on the website look the same for both UK and international students.  

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29 minutes ago, BlueLou said:

the school got the same amount of money regardless of whether the student was UK or overseas. I thought that if it was a degree, the government paid the difference between the £9250 capped rate and the full fee for UK students.

 

Certainly not the case in UK universities! Don't know about the RBS or ENBS, but universities get the full income from overseas students.

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Royal Conservatoire of Scotland, Central and Rambert charge overseas (outside the EU) students significantly more than UK students.  RBS and ENBS don’t.  I’m wondering therefore if it’s to do with the qualification they offer? Is it courses culminating in a degree AND which attract funding from Student Finance who can charge more to overseas students? 

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6 hours ago, Kate_N said:

 

Certainly not the case in UK universities! Don't know about the RBS or ENBS, but universities get the full income from overseas students.

and in days of capped  UK /EU  student numbers   none EU students  were over and above that  hence the  the  various  links  that  the red bricks / Russell Group HEIs  developed with  SE Asia and China 

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I think another side of the coin is, if schools stay limited to the population of the country they're based in, wouldn't this attitude also apply equally to British students? What about those talented Brits wanting to study in Monaco, New York, Paris, Stuttgart, Toronto, Melbourne, Moscow, Amsterdam, St Petersburg... The nature of ballet is that it's an international art, and schools and companies want to recruit from the best students around the world. This applies equally to British students. I know that some schools do tend to preference their own nationals above international students (particularly in France and Russia) but many schools have the same international focus that RBS and ENBS are showing now. And that benefits you just as much as the Australian and Japanese and whatever else students that aspire to train in those schools. And tax payers in those countries also help to offset the fees paid by your talented and hard working students. An Australian is no more deserving of a spot at ABS than anyone else just because they were born in Australia (though of course they may be more able to take up such a spot if one is offered). And this international recruiting all goes towards creating the multidimensional, diverse cast of dancers that make up the ballet companies we love to watch; diverse not just in nationality, but height and body type as discussed above. Just trying to give a different perspective...

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Viv, I don’t disagree. I think it’s more about how it’s being done. Paris and Russia are completely focussed on their own national students first and I think that’s how it should be. How the AD can be proud of going abroad when he hasn’t been seen in Year 11 planning meetings all year I don’t know. I’m not suggesting that schools and companies aren’t made richer by the inclusion of international students. What happens after Brexit when the UK students can’t access current reciprocal arrangements within the EU? Are we returning to the days of money talking?

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39 minutes ago, Dancermum2003 said:

Are we returning to the days of money talking?

 

Don't underestimate how much investment - not just money - that families make in sending children away from home, and particularly those children who travel internationally for specialist education. It's not easy to up sticks and move to another country (I know this - I've been a migrant twice), and at 16 or 17 it's an extraordinary feat. 

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22 hours ago, Dancermum2003 said:

Am I the only one that finds it really insulting that these auditions are taking place and being seen as a good thing??? How about some loyalty to British dancers? Do the children in Year 11 at White Lidge know if they have Upper school places yet or is it hanging over them as they see their AD in various places recruiting? 

 

Students from White Lodge have not a place at Upper school safe, they have to audition for it like anyone else as far as I know. By the way when we are talking about loyalto to british dancers: they compete also against concurrence from other british dancers who were not at White Lodge before. In the ballet world it is a very normal way and even in France and Russia this route is more and more popular.

At my vocational school in Germany (and not only at mine) we had a few british dancers who went to our school in Germany because they didn´t get a place at a school in Uk or had to leave their school because they didn´t meet the requests (anymore). Not always because of international students but also from other british students. Which caused that other students at my school (mostly german ones) had to go. When I started at the first year we were mostly Germans in class. When we graduated there were only a few left.

The students who had to leave the school then went to other schools were they probably replaced other students again and so on. This the circle of (ballet-)life. It is definitely not for everyone and a hard way especialley when we are talking about very young people. But most students learn to live with it and they do deal far better with it as their parents!

 

We could say everybody has to stay and learn in their country and go there to vocational school. But we are talking here about an artform and in no way this scenario is realistic. I have learned so much from my fellow international classmates and also the other way around. Also this way you are prepared for the real work at a company, where you have also work constantly so you can get good roles and promotions, where you have to dance with a lot of different dancers from all around the world.

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3 hours ago, Esmeralda said:

 

Students from White Lodge have not a place at Upper school safe, they have to audition for it like anyone else as far as I know. By the way when we are talking about loyalto to british dancers: they compete also against concurrence from other british dancers who were not at White Lodge before. In the ballet world it is a very normal way and even in France and Russia this route is more and more popular.


the other thing to consider with  WL >RBS US >  RB  company   dream progressions is that assumes that one fits the RB mould at every stage, where someone might have been prime WL   candidate ar 11  but by 16/17  they  , while still being a  fabulous and  competent dancer  might be more suited to say  Central and  then  a professional career with a more narrative company such as Northern  or  New Adventures  

you could draw a line  , a spectrum if you will,  from 100 % contemporary to 100% classical ballet  and then pick a company and place  a block along that line that  represents what the AD of that company is looking for   in terms of technique and that 'sparkle'  ...  

equally you could line up 4 or 5  dancers  all  with similar marks in  their technique exams a, all with similar  turnout / extension  etc etc ...   all  similar heights and builds  but  give them  3 or 4  pieces to learn across varying  choreographers and along this  line from contemporary to  strictly classical   and it will show  their strengths as an artist ...    which is what  the ADs  of the upper schools and companies look for ....   
 

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The bigger issue here is how British graduates along the length of the dance spectrum will find jobs post-Brexit. This is what the parents of young dancers in vocational training, or considering vocational training, should be most concerned about in my view. The odds of entering one of the UK's leading ballet companies  have become worse with every passing year. This year only 1 British female dancer and 2 British males were permitted to graduate from the Upper School. There were a few more at ENBS, but none of them were offered contracts at ENB (all of the contracts went to EU and international students). Prospects at Elmhurst were no better.  AD's and school directors do not want to see restrictions on the numbers of students and dancers coming into this country and are fighting to prevent this through One Dance UK, which defends their interests. As long as dancers remain on the UK Labour Shortage List,  it will be possible for overseas dancers to by-pass the kind of visa restrictions which Brits face when trying to find work overseas. Graduates are advised not to try to seek work in the USA on the basis that they will waste their money in a fruitless search because American dancers must get priority for jobs. The same is true in Asia and South Africa. Australia and New Zealand have very few companies, which is why so many Anzac students and dancers are in the UK.   In short European companies, especially Eastern European companies, have been the main source of employment for British dancers for years. If British dancers lose their freedom of movement in Europe there isn't really anywhere else for them to go. It is already tough enough for students and their families, especially as the cost of travelling to audition can run to thousands of pounds, and at open auditions, dancers can expect to find themselves competing with an average of 150 dancers even after pre-selection. If British graduates face visa restrictions which prevent their from finding full-time or at least annual contracts in companies, there will be very little hope for this generation as AD's may not want to be bothered with the red tape involved in employing them. Protectionism is now creeping in the EU as more online ads for dancers stipulate that applicants must have EU passports or national passports from the host country. In other countries it has become evident that although non-citizens are welcome to audition, it is more likely at the end of the audition that the national, or native-language speaker will get the job. 

So what is being done to prevent British ballet dancers becoming the most disadvantaged in the world? Artistic directors continue to scour the globe and compete with each other to recruit international competition winners, while paying scant attention to British dancers in their own schools. The post just above this one advertises how the Royal Ballet School is going to audition from new recruits in San Francisco and Chicago in January. But we do not see leading American companies coming to the UK to recruit dancers. EU and international students who come to fill our schools (and we have too many schools producing too many dancers, all claiming to provide training for professional careers) will have the choice to stay and work here or return to their own countries and economic zones, where they will find a wider range of employment opportunities. Equity is urging members to write to their MPs  and has highlight the devastating consequences of Brexit for dancers and other cultural sector workers who are highly mobile if they lose freedom of movement. However, as far as I can see there are no public figures or high-profile ex-dancers who are fighting for this  new generation of British dancers. It is very sad that those who did not face today's levels of international competition themselves, and who were able to enjoy more stable careers in British companies, do not seem to feel compelled to represent the new generation of talent, and to enter into discussion with the government.

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14 minutes ago, Goldenlily17 said:

EU and international students who come to fill our schools (and we have too many schools producing too many dancers, all claiming to provide training for professional careers) will have the choice to stay and work here or return to their own countries and economic zones, where they will find a wider range of employment opportunities. 

 

Goldenlily, I agree that Brexit is going to cause serious issues for the arts.

 

However, I don't think your statement quoted above is entirely correct.  Although the international graduates may have a choice to stay here or go elsewhere they will still be required to get visas.  This is not always as straightforward as it seems even though dance is on the UK Labour Shortage List.

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From what I understand the Government's Migration Advisory Committee wants to reduce access for low-skilled EU workers, and allow greater access for higher-skilled EU migration (Tier 2 visas which includes dancers), and it wants to extend this scheme to include EEA migrants. The goal is to scrap the current cap on the number of workers allowed to enter under Tier 2.  Top priority will be given to workers on the shortage list. If this happens we will see greater numbers of dancers finding it easier to get visas to come to the UK.  The Government wants to do this to recruit Mining Engineers, Cyber security experts and Paediatric consultants, which we actually need. My argument is that dancers should not be on the Labour Shortage List at all. We don't actually need more dancers because we have a real issue with dancers finding employment in this country, and we certainly don't need them at a time when British dancers will face much greater hardship as opportunities for them within the EU diminish, as seems inevitable.

Earlier this year the House of Lords Home Office sub-committee took evidence from the representatives of workers in the cultural sector and came up with a report which advised the adoption of certain types of visas for cultural sector workers who need to travel  to the EU to find work. The problem is that dancers weren't well represented as they don't have a union of their own, unlike  Musicians. It strikes me that the recommendations which the committee put to the government will work for musicians but not for dancers who have completely different needs. This is why I am so concerned that dancers have a voice and why I would like to see some public figure from the dance world form a lobby group to give dancers a voice.

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What has always puzzled me is that in the UK we supposedly have some of the best and most sought-after schools in the world (as evidenced by the rest of the world beating a path to their doors). So how come we are not producing enough home grown young students to fill our own upper schools several times over?

 

Why are the schools actively, increasingly (and enthusiastically) looking elsewhere? Why can't they find more of what they are looking for here? Why do the majority of places at those schools (and almost all ballet company contracts) go to those from overseas? Where are all the talented youngsters in the UK and what is going wrong at grass-roots level? How is it that, say, Australia (a country with a much smaller population) is bursting at the seams with talent? How come POB rarely feels the need to take anyone who isn't French into their school?

 

Why aren't we producing dancers of that calibre? We jolly well should be. And until we are, there will always be the argument that the dance profession needs to be on the shortage list. What we need is a few world class schools in this country and then we could train world class dancers. Oh. Hang on. We already have the top schools, don't we? But British dancers don't often get in. Back to square one then.  

 

Catch 22.

Edited by taxi4ballet
edited for spelling
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2 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

Why are the schools actively, increasingly (and enthusiastically) looking elsewhere? Why can't they find more of what they are looking for here? Why do the majority of places at those schools (and almost all ballet company contracts) go to those from overseas? Where are all the talented youngsters in the UK and what is going wrong at grass-roots level? How is it that, say, Australia (a country with a much smaller population) is bursting at the seams with talent? How come POB rarely feels the need to take anyone who isn't French into their school?

 

I don't know but....in Australia there has been a strong influence from Asian cultures.  Specifically, the emphasis on hard work rather than talent.

For ballet this can mean putting in more hours, seeking out the best coaches and cross-training etc from a young age.  Yes, you need artistry and musicality.  That is the differentiator if you can get yourself into the room (audition).

 

It is hard to beat a Cuban, a Russian, a South Korean etc who has put absolutely everything into making it.  They may be sacrificing aspects of childhood that others would not choose to do i.e. see it as a poor choice given the odds of a career or feel it is too imbalanced a life for a child...

 

- I think culturally POB is a world of its own.  A closed shop and happy to be so. 

Edited by DD Driver
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9 hours ago, DD Driver said:

 

I don't know but....in Australia there has been a strong influence from Asian cultures.  Specifically, the emphasis on hard work rather than talent.

For ballet this can mean putting in more hours, seeking out the best coaches and cross-training etc from a young age.  Yes, you need artistry and musicality.  That is the differentiator if you can get yourself into the room (audition).

 

 

 

I think vocational schools in the UK do not put a similar amount of hours in from a young age, as education and balance are seen to be important in the UK. However at 16 if the schools then seek out students who have had that level of intensive training above home grown students it creates an issue.

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3 hours ago, amos73 said:

 

I think vocational schools in the UK do not put a similar amount of hours in from a young age, as education and balance are seen to be important in the UK. However at 16 if the schools then seek out students who have had that level of intensive training above home grown students it creates an issue.

 

Or if they take British students into Upper Schools who don’t graduate (not including those who are injured or who voluntarily change path) because they are either officially assessed out, or simply not selected for Grad year and “encouraged” to look elsewhere.  It would be interesting to know how many British students stay for all three years.

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14 hours ago, Nicola H said:

also  seems  to be a rather London centric  view of employment   in  major companies... 

It is only the two big London companies which supposedly have directly associated vocational upper schools. Which is why we are mentioning those companies in particular when discussing the lack of employment opportunities for graduates.

 

Edited by taxi4ballet
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10 minutes ago, Dancermum2003 said:

Not RBS this year - they have said they won’t be attending

 

Gary Norman, former leading faculty, The Royal Ballet School, UK. The participants get a list of scholarships to choose from prior to the semi final. RBS usually offer places for full time, short term and SS. Not sure if they are offering anything this year and who would be presenting 🤔 we will see. 

 

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