Royal Ballet School holding more international auditions

[Kate_N]

1 hour ago, KeepDancing!! said:

which it has been noted are slower and more measured than the training so many international trained students receive in those years.

 

So is the question being asked, why is their training at lower school level like that, when they recruit students for upper school who are more advanced technically as a result of more intensive training?

 

But do we actually have evidence (not anecdote or feeling) that

a) overseas-trained students are 'replacing' locally-trained students?

b) that internationally-trained students aren't trained in the 'slow and steady' mode?

 

[Flora]

Our DD does not have the perfect ballet body by today's standards and over the years she has grown used to being the type of dancer (she feels) plagued with criticism in the classroom and heaped with praise when she steps off the stage. The contrast is just huge. Every ballet door that has opened for her - and she has had some amazing opportunities especially in the last year or so- have come from being seen on stage and never in the classroom. It has been wonderful but also so difficult for her but one thing we know is the best training available to her is definitely not the UK. To those members in Aus etc who see us as having loads of great schools in the UK, I really don't think the training here is great if you are not in line for the very best like RBS US which are just so very very competitive. There are other schools in the UK, of course, but that doesn't mean they are all universally great for classical ballet. Our DD turned down the UK places she was offered as we just didn't feel they were as decent as the options overseas. She made RBS US finals but it was obvious in the audition the places had all been filled by international competition winners and WL and quite honestly there was no way she was going to be going there anyway. She does not have the look. I don't know how much longer our DD will dance. It could be days, weeks, months or years. I do really wish though that the emphasis was a bit more on natural acting ability and musicality and dancers who dance with their soul, rather than the tricks they can do, how high will the leg go and how long are your legs and how great are your feet.

[KeepDancing!!]

2 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

But do we actually have evidence (not anecdote or feeling) that

a) overseas-trained students are 'replacing' locally-trained students?

b) that internationally-trained students aren't trained in the 'slow and steady' mode?

 

 

I remember reading on here that this year there were 2 girls from original Y7 cohort of 12 who had received the full 5 yrs training at white lodge were taken into US this year, along with a few girls who had joined for y10 or y11 having been recruited from abroad. 

 

I think the thing some people have been complaining about is that the students recruited from abroad are more advanced and have trained more intensively as they are homeschooled and do 5/6 hours a day of ballet, at least the competition winners who have in previous years been recruited.

[RuthE]

55 minutes ago, Xandra Newman said:

One should also ask the following question: what is the difference in injury rate/occurrence between those professional dancers who started their (slower) training at the RBS Lower School and finished their training at the Upper School and those who were/are recruited into the RBS Upper School having received more intensive early training? 

 

And indeed, career longevity.  Though of course there are many other reasons why dancers retire besides being knackered!

[MAK]

1 minute ago, KeepDancing!! said:

 

I remember reading on here that this year there were 2 girls from original Y7 cohort of 12 who had received the full 5 yrs training at white lodge were taken into US this year, along with a few girls who had joined for y10 or y11 having been recruited from abroad. 

 

I think the thing some people have been complaining about is that the students recruited from abroad are more advanced and have trained more intensively as they are homeschooled and do 5/6 hours a day of ballet, at least the competition winners who have in previous years been recruited.

We've just been at ENBS summer school, where the participants mostly came from overseas (DD1 absolutely loved it and would really like to go back for more courses). I cannot pretend to know whether one dancer was "better"/"more able" than another - I'm just a mum and I don't have a dance background or any technical knowledge - but it was certainly the case that 12-14 year olds from overseas were clearly experienced at more advanced "moves" than I have seen in more UK based classes e.g. Associates etc. This was particularly the case with their Pointe work - something that has been mentioned above. 

[Nicola H]

7 minutes ago, RuthE said:

 

And indeed, career longevity.  Though of course there are many other reasons why dancers retire besides being knackered!

and although this thread is RBS focused  ,  the  fascination and  focus in other threads on the RBS and RB   rather than  the  other   fourr of the 'big   five'   and  the likes of New Adventures ...  

interesting to note the  'unofficial' feeder arrangements  as much as the official ones  ( despite the amount of time David Nixon  has been at Northern  it still seem to have a lot of CSB grads - despite   other  conspicuous efforts to  move away  from  the Gable years in terms of rep and  other ethos stuff )   

[taxi4ballet]

2 hours ago, Nicola H said:

...interesting to note the  'unofficial' feeder arrangements  as much as the official ones  ( despite the amount of time David Nixon  has been at Northern  it still seem to have a lot of CSB grads - despite   other  conspicuous efforts to  move away  from  the Gable years in terms of rep and  other ethos stuff )   

Carole Gable is still very much present at Central, and takes an active role in coaching for the Ballet Central tour. 

David Nixon is one of the artistic advisors.

[Jan McNulty]

3 hours ago, Nicola H said:

and although this thread is RBS focused  ,  the  fascination and  focus in other threads on the RBS and RB   rather than  the  other   fourr of the 'big   five'   and  the likes of New Adventures ...  

interesting to note the  'unofficial' feeder arrangements  as much as the official ones  ( despite the amount of time David Nixon  has been at Northern  it still seem to have a lot of CSB grads - despite   other  conspicuous efforts to  move away  from  the Gable years in terms of rep and  other ethos stuff )   

 

NB may have moved away from a lot of the Gable era rep (and indeed when Christopher Gable became AD of NB everything except A Simple Man was gone within 2 years) but I believe his ethos remains and has grown under the directorship of David Nixon.  A couple of people joining for the upcoming season have come from CSB.

 

Speaking of CSB, Max Maslen has just been promoted to soloist at BRB and Kizzy Matiakis is a Principal at RDB.

 

But people are talking about the transition from UK lower to upper schools and both CSB and ENBS do not have lower schools.

[LinMM]

Thanks so much for your post Flora ....I SO agree with you. I've seen really beautiful ex RBS WL trained students who didn't make Upper school and I'm just so sure ( but can't be absolutely sure of course) that it's because they weren't the "right" body type!! 

I know we could go around in circles about this but at the moment the more athletic/ gymnastic style is in fashion so I think one has to accept that in the end.

i do know and am pleased to say that one of the girls I saw eventually got into a Company....it would have been such a waste if she hadn't!! 

I do hope your DD is successful eventually.

I suppose though that it is the old story that there are more lovely dancers around than Company places unfortunately so competition is rather fierce but like you I wish it wasn't always the ones who can get their legs round their ears ( wonderful as this ability is) that seem to attract more attention these days.

 

[Pups_mum]

11 hours ago, RuthE said:

 

And indeed, career longevity.  Though of course there are many other reasons why dancers retire besides being knackered!

Or, in my humble opinion, even more important than length of career is length of healthy life. As a health care professional who has seen the  long lasting effects of even inappropriate regular footwear, my heart sinks when I see such young girls on pointe. Maybe some people do believe that the gains from early pointework justify the potential permanent damage to a child's feet, but I can't agree. I do however understand the pressure as between constant begging from my DD and persuasion from her teacher, I let my own daughter go on pointe a little sooner than I really wanted to, and I really, really should have known better! I can only imagine how much stronger that pressure must be if you are in an environment where it's the norm and you are told that your child must be able to dance well known classical variations en pointe by the age of 9 or they are doomed to failure. I fear that the increased publicity for this type of thing via YouTube etc will increase pressure on other students to follow suite. 

But the adults involved need to protect the children. It will be a rare 10 Year old who can truly grasp the  risks and be willing to forgo excitement and possible great success in the here and now because of potential health problems at some indeterminate time in the future. Teachers, parents and governing bodies need to make that decision for them.

My youngest child is a keen cyclist. There are still pushy parents and obsessive coaches in that world of course - it's not perfect. But there is a lot more protective legislation. For example, the maximum size of gear allowed for racing is age dependent, and strictly enforced so no amount of pleading from the child for bigger gearing to help them go faster makes an difference. Nor can a coach persuade a parent that their child is special - stronger, more advanced, more promising than everyone else - so that it's OK to move them onto harder gears. Nope, it's non negotiable. Turn up at a British Cycling approved race on a bike with the wrong gears for your age and you won't be allowed to ride. Makes it much easier for everyone and helps prevent children from injury. I'd like to see the governing bodies in the dance world take a similar stance.

[SissonneDoublee]

42 minutes ago, Pups_mum said:

Or, in my humble opinion, even more important than length of career is length of healthy life. As a health care professional who has seen the  long lasting effects of even inappropriate regular footwear, my heart sinks when I see such young girls on pointe. Maybe some people do believe that the gains from early pointework justify the potential permanent damage to a child's feet, but I can't agree. I do however understand the pressure as between constant begging from my DD and persuasion from her teacher, I let my own daughter go on pointe a little sooner than I really wanted to, and I really, really should have known better! I can only imagine how much stronger that pressure must be if you are in an environment where it's the norm and you are told that your child must be able to dance well known classical variations en pointe by the age of 9 or they are doomed to failure. I fear that the increased publicity for this type of thing via YouTube etc will increase pressure on other students to follow suite. 

But the adults involved need to protect the children. It will be a rare 10 Year old who can truly grasp the  risks and be willing to forgo excitement and possible great success in the here and now because of potential health problems at some indeterminate time in the future. Teachers, parents and governing bodies need to make that decision for them.

My youngest child is a keen cyclist. There are still pushy parents and obsessive coaches in that world of course - it's not perfect. But there is a lot more protective legislation. For example, the maximum size of gear allowed for racing is age dependent, and strictly enforced so no amount of pleading from the child for bigger gearing to help them go faster makes an difference. Nor can a coach persuade a parent that their child is special - stronger, more advanced, more promising than everyone else - so that it's OK to move them onto harder gears. Nope, it's non negotiable. Turn up at a British Cycling approved race on a bike with the wrong gears for your age and you won't be allowed to ride. Makes it much easier for everyone and helps prevent children from injury. I'd like to see the governing bodies in the dance world take a similar stance.

All England Dance and all the qualifying festivals associated do prohibit pointe work before 13 years of age. If only more teachers and parents took heed of this outside the festival context. While preparatory work is fine before this, it seems like a sensible rule of thumb for more extended dancing on pointe.

[alison]

16 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

I started watching ballet in 1984 just when Peter Schaufuss had just employed Trinidad Sevillano as a 16 year old principal.  I always loved her performances and she was the first dancer I would make a special trip to see.  It wasn't until a couple of years ago, when there was a short discussion about her on another forum, that I saw some Youtube clips and realised how wonderful she was and how lucky I was to see her dance.  I suspect that she would not have fitted the bill for RBS either.

 

And nor would a couple of her top colleagues either, I would guess. 

[Viv]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this, but it just came out today. A video by Claudia Dean, former dancer at the Royal Ballet and graduate of the RBS upper school, who now runs a private coaching company in Australia. These are her honest thoughts about the decision to go into 'full time' training (as in, dancing during the day every day and doing online school, rather than a vocational lower school). She is pretty scathing about full time training for dancers under the age of 15, it's very interesting because a number of the dancers she features on her channel have made the decision to go into full time, 30 hour a week training at 10! I'm so glad, and think it's quite brave, that a teacher who is practically worshipped by young dancers here in Australia is coming out unequivocally against this. I think it ties into some of the things we've discussed on this thread, particularly about age appropriate training at the YAGP and the international students RBS are taking in who have been training at a (in my opinion) dangerously intense level for many years. I'm hoping a return to sanity and reasonable/appropriate dance training is going to emerge in the not so distant future.

 

 

[Viv]

@DD Driver Sorry I can see you already posted this video! I tried to delete my comment but it won't let me? 

[Ms Sunshine]

YAGP 2019

 PERFORMING EN POINTE
We are strongly committed to ensuring the safety and well-being of all dancers, and especially
of our youngest participants. Please make sure that you adhere to the guidelines set forth below:
- For Participants under 12 years of age: performing en pointe is strongly discouraged.
- For Participants under 11 years of age: performing en pointe is prohibited.

[Dance*is*life]

What an interesting discussion. I was at RBS US in the mid 1960s and I have to say that, as someone noted about Fonteyn, most of us would probably not be accepted today!  However good we might have been technically and artistically, we didn't have the same bodies as you see today.  Of course then it was different. There were two overseas students classes, where in fact the level was lower and if you wanted to get in the company you had to have some claim to British nationality!  White Lodge students were the favoured ones and they only ever did two years training in the US rather than three like most of the rest of us. They normally went straight into 3A and then Graduates.  There was a lot more individuality in the company's roster of stars - we wanted to see the different casts for a ballet because they were so different.  I am sure they still are, but not in the same way.  To my old fashioned eyes, dancers nowadays seem to be a bit clone like - all with the same exquisite physique and feet, hyper extensions and multiple pirouettes. I do miss the days of Lynne Seymour, Merle Park, Nadia Nerina, Svetlana Beriosova, Antoinette Sibley and of course Fonteyn.  By the way here's something to think about -  Seymour came from Canada, Park was born in Zimbabwe, Nerina was South African, Beriosova was Lithuanian - so even then the company was international!

[ArucariaBallerina]

@Dance*is*lifeThat is so interesting... I hope you don't mind me asking, but is it true that the dancers of your day were less technically advanced than today's dancers? I know styles have changed, but when dancers in the 1960s did a developpe a la seconde say, would their feet touch their ears with nothing seen but the heel because the leg is so turned out? Could the ladies all do 3+ pirouettes and as students do the 32 fouettés en pointe?

I am very interested in ballet history, and readin Fonteyn's autobiography and Pavlova's biographies, they both seem to believe that their technique was comparatively lacking. And yet people couldn't take their eyes off them!

[Dance*is*life]

Of course I don't mind your asking!   Our legs were fairly high, but nowhere near as acrobatic as nowadays - it was more about line and quality I think.  We were expected to do triple pirouettes - but not more than that because it had to be musically correct.  32 fouettes on pointe were trained to right and left - no such thing as favoured side!  Lots of batterie and quick allegro - if you look at old films on youtube you will see examples.  Sir Frederick Ashton's choreography was really challenging. I read that when they revived one of his ballets the dancers nowadays found it really difficult.  That may well be because of the different bodies that we had - quick allegro is much harder for long legged ultra flexible dancers and probably why Balanchine dancers don't put their heels down - Balanchine also liked quick movements!  Of course technique has evolved over the years,  expectations have changed too,  but I don't think that dancers in the last century were lacking in technique compared to today - they just looked different and as you noted the stars all had amazing quality, so that you couldn't take your eyes off them.  Pavlova was before my time, but when I was 9 I saw Galina Ulanova when the Bolshoi first came to perform in England.  I was bowled over by her and the other dancers, but I thought that if I saw her today I would probably think otherwise.  I was wrong!  I watched a DVD of the Bolshoi with Ulanova and Raissa Struchkova (who was younger) and I was awe struck once again!  The same goes for when I watched a video of Nadia Nerina in La Fille Mal Gardee and Beriosova too.  You just have to look at them with different eyes!

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Dance*is*life

[Jan McNulty]

17 minutes ago, Dance*is*life said:

Of course I don't mind your asking!   Our legs were fairly high, but nowhere near as acrobatic as nowadays - it was more about line and quality I think.  We were expected to do triple pirouettes - but not more than that because it had to be musically correct.  32 fouettes on pointe were trained to right and left - no such thing as favoured side!  Lots of batterie and quick allegro - if you look at old films on youtube you will see examples.  Sir Frederick Ashton's choreography was really challenging. I read that when they revived one of his ballets the dancers nowadays found it really difficult.  That may well be because of the different bodies that we had - quick allegro is much harder for long legged ultra flexible dancers and probably why Balanchine dancers don't put their heels down - Balanchine also liked quick movements!  Of course technique has evolved over the years,  expectations have changed too,  but I don't think that dancers in the last century were lacking in technique compared to today - they just looked different and as you noted the stars all had amazing quality, so that you couldn't take your eyes off them. 

 

 

DIL - as a ballet watcher (never done a dance lesson in my life) - you have summed this up beautifully.

 

I'm not an inveterate YouTuber but when I do dip into the ballet archives for renowned dancers I often think they would more than hold their own these days in terms of artistry and, yes, technique.

 

A couple of years ago we were watching a Northern Ballet company class being taken by AD David Nixon.  At one point he said (paraphrased) that he was pleased dancers could get their legs up to their ears but that was not included in his choreography so could they please do the exercises as he requested!!!  We could have cheered!!!

[Nicola H]

13 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

<snip>

 

A couple of years ago we were watching a Northern Ballet company class being taken by AD David Nixon.  At one point he said (paraphrased) that he was pleased dancers could get their legs up to their ears but that was not included in his choreography so could they please do the exercises as he requested!!!  We could have cheered!!!

that is also  one of the differences of  Northern vs some other big name companies ...  it's perhaps a little bit arrogant to say to Northern IS narrative ballet - but that is what  they do very  very well  and what  a lot of their 'own ' works are ...  but despite  differences  ( and  some of the rep being  very much deprecated) the  story of Northern / NBT  is one of narrative ballet   especially under Gable and  under Nixon 

David Nixon's comment  does not surprise me as it  fits very much with the  philosophy of training  espoused  by Yoko Ichino and  seen  in the teaching styles of  teachers i have taken class  with who are associated with Northern / AoNB  (such as David Kierce and Annemarie Donoghue)

(however some  of you would expect nothing less  of me than total Northern Fangirling  -  especially given  what , where and whom   @sophie_rebecca, myself and  40 odd other people  spent our bank holiday weekend  doing ... ) " ballet is  like walking, it's just stylised "  (DPK at the weekend)

Edited August 28, 2018 by Nicola H

[Pas de Quatre]

Roland Petit coaching and comparing extensions a la seconde

 

You may find this clip of interest.  From 2.25 Roland Petit shows the difference between a modern very high extension and a classical Petipa one, much lower.  The commentary is in French with German subtitles, but it is easy to get the meaning!

[invisiblecircus]

Dance*is*life, I'm so happy to see you posting again.

[alison]

13 hours ago, ArucariaBallerina said:

@Dance*is*lifeThat is so interesting... I hope you don't mind me asking, but is it true that the dancers of your day were less technically advanced than today's dancers? I know styles have changed, but when dancers in the 1960s did a developpe a la seconde say, would their feet touch their ears with nothing seen but the heel because the leg is so turned out?

 

I'd say they were less physically extreme than nowadays, but I don't know that they were less technically advanced.  And I'm pretty sure that anything they lacked technically they made up for in individuality, musicality, artistry and so on.

[Dance*is*life]

20 hours ago, invisiblecircus said:

Dance*is*life, I'm so happy to see you posting again.

Thank you! Me too - don't remember now why I stopped!  There are such interesting threads on here!

[yvonnep]

@ArucariaBallerina If you take a look at the DVDs released by ICAClassics (Nedia Nerina's Giselle, for one), it is clear that dancers of their times were not in any way less technically advanced than dancers nowadays. Take the ending of Giselle's variation in Act 1 for instance, I've never seen anyone respond to the music like Nadia did here: https://vimeo.com/138445109. It is jaw-dropping. I was as stunned as the time when I saw Fonteyn hopping in arabesque on pointe in the Sleeping Beauty Act 3 coda.

Edited September 19, 2018 by yvonnep
update name

[Pas de Quatre]

Thank you yvonnep - that was lovely!

[glissade]

Yvonnep ... the link https://vimeo.com/138445109 didn't work for me. Did I get it wrong? Would love to watch it!

Edited September 21, 2018 by glissade

[Pas de Quatre]

The link didn't work direct for me, I had to copy and paste into the search bar.

[DD Driver]

hmmm The RBS Hong Kong Spring Intensive  - for one week, non-residential is

£875   So I guess one reason for RBS NOT to attend YAGP is that they can earn good money from encouraging students to attend the Intensives and Summer Schools instead.  Maybe offer more locations as well in the next few years.

Edited September 23, 2018 by DD Driver

[glissade]

I can't get the vimeo link to work at all, either by copying and pasting or trimming  ... but I think this is the same video on Youtube (?) - 

 

[Peanut68]

On 23/09/2018 at 05:10, DD Driver said:

hmmm The RBS Hong Kong Spring Intensive  - for one week, non-residential is

£875   So I guess one reason for RBS NOT to attend YAGP is that they can earn good money from encouraging students to attend the Intensives and Summer Schools instead.  Maybe offer more locations as well in the next few years.

There’s mention on the rbs website of a USA based intensive next year.... I think it says Autumn! No doubt a nice earner...I see I  am not the only cynic 😉

[DD Driver]

On 25/09/2018 at 03:53, Peanut68 said:

There’s mention on the rbs website of a USA based intensive next year.... I think it says Autumn! No doubt a nice earner...I see I  am not the only cynic 😉

 

I guess I can not begrudge the RBS taking the opportunity to make some cash and take greater control of their entry processes/auditions.  It is just buyer beware.  Until your child is at an age where they are ready to audition for RBS or similar then the summer schools or intensives are not necessarily the best use of your money.  Same could be said of attending the big competitions.  Thoughts?

 

Some parents explain that they are sending young students to elite school summer schools/intensives - when they are not looking to make a move yet - in order for the school to get to know the child and vice versa.  Exposure.   In a large class and with teachers that may not be part of the year-round faculty, I'm not sure if this is realistic (?) Also I have heard that sometimes the number of hours each day are short and the skill level is not advanced.  This is fine if the price is right but from where we sit it involves expensive fees and flights and accommodation when attending outside your own city/state/country.  I'd be very happy for someone to enlighten me as to the value in sending your child at a younger age i.e. under 14/15 years!

[Wigglybunny]

6 hours ago, DD Driver said:

 

I guess I can not begrudge the RBS taking the opportunity to make some cash and take greater control of their entry processes/auditions.  It is just buyer beware.  Until your child is at an age where they are ready to audition for RBS or similar then the summer schools or intensives are not necessarily the best use of your money.  Same could be said of attending the big competitions.  Thoughts?

 

Some parents explain that they are sending young students to elite school summer schools/intensives - when they are not looking to make a move yet - in order for the school to get to know the child and vice versa.  Exposure.   In a large class and with teachers that may not be part of the year-round faculty, I'm not sure if this is realistic (?) Also I have heard that sometimes the number of hours each day are short and the skill level is not advanced.  This is fine if the price is right but from where we sit it involves expensive fees and flights and accommodation when attending outside your own city/state/country.  I'd be very happy for someone to enlighten me as to the value in sending your child at a younger age i.e. under 14/15 years!

 

I’m our experience, summer school has been great from a young age. I would say there is real benefit if your child is looking to go to lower school and hasn’t been away from home before. My son went aged 10 the year before he auditioned for voc school to see if he could cope being away from home but mainly to see if he liked it. He went to two very different summer schools that year and ended up only auditioning for one because one was right for him and the other (which he thought he would prefer) really wasn’t. He learned lots and from a male perspective, he really benefitted from being in a class of all boys, almost all of whom were older. It was a huge inspiration for him and not something he could have got in many places elsewhere.