Royal Ballet School holding more international auditions

[Kate_N]

3 hours ago, Melody said:

it seems a bit short-sighted to be that focused on long legs and long neck and small ears or whatever, rather than musicality and dance potential, 

 

But to most dance professionals, looking for "potential" includes a particular body type: generally, long limbs,  a torso that is in proportion to the legs (short body/long legs preferred), smallish head, long neck, and so on. And I'd hazard a guess that there are many applicants with all of these physical qualities PLUS musicality and dance ability.

 

At least WL is selecting at 11 or so - famously, several of the elite Russian schools select for body type, flexibility, etc from the age of 7. And can be far more ruthless in "selecting out" if one believes the stories one hears.

 

But it strikes me that some of the worry in this discussion is based on stories and anecdote ("anecdata" 😉 ), rather than reliable documentary evidence over time. I've read similar threads on other ballet messageboards, but from a US and/or Australian perspective - with nationals of those countries anxious that locals are being edged out by 'foreign' auditionees.  As @Pointetoessays, "It should be remembered that it does work both ways."

Edited August 7, 2018 by Kate_N

[alison]

13 hours ago, Melody said:

I sometimes wonder if Margot Fonteyn would get into White Lodge if she showed up today.

 

I think the conclusion has been that she wouldn't have made it into the Royal Ballet, so probably WL would have been unlikely as well.

[invisiblecircus]

15 hours ago, Melody said:

One thing that bothers me a bit, reading some of the above posts, is that I've seen a few mentions of WL looking for a particular body type as the major criterion, over and above things like musicality or even dance ability (someone please tell me if I've got this wrong). But I've also seen comments along the lines of "of course, bodies change, you don't always know what an 11-year-old will look like at 16."

 

While I understand that a vocational ballet school isn't going to take a spherical 11-year-old, however musical and light on her feet she is, it seems a bit short-sighted to be that focused on long legs and long neck and small ears or whatever, rather than musicality and dance potential, especially in light of how bodies change as girls hit puberty. I sometimes wonder if Margot Fonteyn would get into White Lodge if she showed up today.

 

It's always a balance, and that's sometimes why a student can be accepted at one school and not another. In the end, ALL schools want the right physique as well as musicality and talent and will accept students who have everything, but no one is perfect. The candidate with the best musicality might not be the one with the most suitable physique. Her acceptance will depend on whether her physique is nevertheless suitable for ballet.  Physiques do change and it's hard to predict what a 10 or 11 year old will look like after puberty, but it's a lot more common for slim 11 year old to develop a heavier build than it is for a heavier one to become more lean after puberty.

Also, a lot has been said on the rate of attrition at White Lodge and why isn't the school good enough to get everyone to the standard of the Amazing international students who get taken into upper school. I'll say that my personal opinion is that lower school training in the UK is rather too careful, but even disregarding that, it is imperative to remember that there is a high attrition rate at ALL schools that train from 10/ 11. We see some amazing students from Australia, China, Japan and elsewhere but you can be certain that the schools where they received their early training lost a lot of students too in the preceeding 6 years too.

[Pas de Quatre]

The advice I have always received from RBS re auditions is that candidates have to tick every box and then have something special that makes them stand out from all the others who have ticked all the boxes.  (In fact it is the jury of course who are ticking  boxes on the candidates individual sheet.)

[Kate_N]

2 hours ago, invisiblecircus said:

it is imperative to remember that there is a high attrition rate at ALL schools that train from 10/ 11. We see some amazing students from Australia, China, Japan and elsewhere but you can be certain that the schools where they received their early training lost a lot of students too in the preceeding 6 years too.

 

A really excellent point! 

I think the anxiety here over attrition rates & standard of training is probably the same the world over. 

[invisiblecircus]

2 hours ago, Kate_N said:

 

A really excellent point! 

 

Thanks! Shame it was written with such poor grammar. I really didn't mean to write "too" twice in the above sentence! Argghh!

[invisiblecircus]

On ‎06‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 13:45, Mnemo said:

What also fuels this discontent, is the perception that it is not entirely a 2 way street. Yes, there are a number of dc cited on this forum that have trained very successfully at schools in other countries, however this is seen as a remarkable achievement and not the norm? There is a sense that dance schools in other countries ensure a good proportion of places go to their home students, whereas UK schools do not do so. I have no way of knowing how true this is. Thoughts anyone?

 

Firstly, I think there are far fewer places at elite schools in other countries with the possible exception of the United States which I don't know much about.

 

Secondly, I think there is a huge cultural element at play here. British students seem less inclined to want to train abroad, possibly because there are lots of options at home, possibly for academic reasons, and certainly in many cases for linguistic reasons.

 

Furthermore, it is understandable that many parents would be reluctant to send their children overseas to train for lower school, but as I touched on in my previous post, lower school training tends to be somewhat slower paced that that in other countries which is compensated by the three years at upper school. This means that a 16 year old who has been through the system in the UK might not be as advanced as a 16 year old training in a country where they complete their training and are ready to go into companies at 17 or 18.

I disagree with the idea that schools in other countries ensure a good proportion of places go to their home students and that this is different in the UK, but I would be very interested to hear other people's opinions on this.

[Ellie]

If you have a look at the sites of Princess Grace Academy, Hamburg Ballet School, Cranko,  Zurich...and so on...You'll probably find that many of the graduates are not native to the country.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, invisiblecircus said:

Also, a lot has been said on the rate of attrition at White Lodge and why isn't the school good enough to get everyone to the standard of the Amazing international students who get taken into upper school. I'll say that my personal opinion is that lower school training in the UK is rather too careful, but even disregarding that, it is imperative to remember that there is a high attrition rate at ALL schools that train from 10/ 11. We see some amazing students from Australia, China, Japan and elsewhere but you can be certain that the schools where they received their early training lost a lot of students too in the preceeding 6 years too.

In saying that lower school training in UK is rather too careful ( an interesting POV that is certainly shared by some US vocational teachers that I have met), is this saying that UK training is too protective and unwilling to take injury risks with growing bodies? Or that the UK Education authorities insistence that everyone gets taught the national curriculum up to age 16, and does the requisite number of hours of study is too restrictive? or both? Certainly rumours abound about young dancers who have attained miraculous levels of accomplishment at an early age, the received wisdom being that they could only have done so by being pushed very hard indeed and putting in so many hours a week practice that their education must have been neglected. I know of at least one UK school that has recently brought in young overseas students to train as 'feeders' for their upper school - plainly they don't think that pre-16 training is good enough in the UK. Sad really.

 

 

[invisiblecircus]

49 minutes ago, Mnemo said:

In saying that lower school training in UK is rather too careful ( an interesting POV that is certainly shared by some US vocational teachers that I have met), is this saying that UK training is too protective and unwilling to take injury risks with growing bodies? Or that the UK Education authorities insistence that everyone gets taught the national curriculum up to age 16, and does the requisite number of hours of study is too restrictive? or both? 

 

Actually neither! I meant that in UK schools there is  a tendency to spend a lot of time on perfecting the basics before teaching more advanced steps. Insisting on an impecable relevé retiré or single pirouette before moving on to doubles and triples. In some other countries you'll see youngsters doing triple and quad turns with not the greatest style, but they gain the confidence with those skills and can then concentrate on perfecting them.

 

Since you mention it though, schools in the UK ARE unwilling to take injury risks with growing bodies, but I think this can only be a good thing. I don't think they are too protective.  Wasn't there a director of an overseas school a while ago who said they push their students very hard, and sure, some get injured but there are Always more students to take their places?

[invisiblecircus]

1 hour ago, Ellie said:

If you have a look at the sites of Princess Grace Academy, Hamburg Ballet School, Cranko,  Zurich...and so on...You'll probably find that many of the graduates are not native to the country.

 

Well yes, Princess Grace (where I trained btw ) is unique in that more often than not, none of their students are native to the country. You are right that all the schools you mentioned are in high demand from foreign students, just as RBS is.

[Duck]

As for the number of places at schools abroad, I would assume that the places at the John Cranko School in Stuttgart, Hamburg Ballet School and the schools in Berlin and Munich add up to a number that is - roughly - similar to the number of places at top schools in the UK. Plus places in Zurich and in Vienna, at Princesse Grace, at national schools in Scandinavia and others that I may/will not be aware of. Just as I don't have a complete list of schools for Europe (bearing in mind that I am looking at this from a ballet-watching perspective, I don't have any DC), is part of it about awareness of the options that are available?

I’ve watched end-of-year performances of the JCS for the last three years. There are a number of pictures on Instagram that were taken towards the end of the most recent school year, showing the students in class or after the end-of-year performances with their teachers. A lot of the students in the pictures have public Instagram accounts that mention their country of birth or their hometown. Based on this information, the school is hugely international, and increasingly so with age.

I saw a documentary about Princesse Grace in Monaco some time ago, and part of it was about how international the student intake was. Rudra Bejart in Lausanne publishes the names and nationalities of their graduates, again massively international.

 

edited to say that post coincided with previous post by invisiblecircus

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Duck
edited to say that post coincided with previous post by invisiblecircus

[invisiblecircus]

13 minutes ago, Duck said:

As for the number of places at schools abroad, I would assume that the places at the John Cranko School in Stuttgart, Hamburg Ballet School and the schools in Berlin and Munich add up to a number that is - roughly - similar to the number of places at top schools in the UK. 

 

There ARE a lot of top schools in Germany, as well as top companies of course! I'm curious as to whether there are other schools in germany that provide professional ballet training beside those you mentioned.

[taxi4ballet]

36 minutes ago, Duck said:

I saw a documentary about Princesse Grace in Monaco some time ago, and part of it was about how international the student intake was. Rudra Bejart in Lausanne publishes the names and nationalities of their graduates, again massively international.

Monaco only has a population of about 38,000 - the size of a small town, so you can't really compare the international intake at a school there with one in a country like the UK with a population in excess of 66 million.

[invisiblecircus]

14 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

Monaco only has a population of about 38,000

 

Of which around 80% are foreign nationals.

[Duck]

48 minutes ago, invisiblecircus said:

 

There ARE a lot of top schools in Germany, as well as top companies of course! I'm curious as to whether there are other schools in germany that provide professional ballet training beside those you mentioned.

 

The article in the link here https://www.dancemagazine.com/in_training_training_in_germany-2306939803.html mentions further schools (some come with a focus on contemporary dance).  

 

 

[invisiblecircus]

11 minutes ago, Duck said:

 

The article in the link here https://www.dancemagazine.com/in_training_training_in_germany-2306939803.html mentions further schools (some come with a focus on contemporary dance).  

 

 

Thanks for the link, That's a very interesting article, especially this part:

"[…]roughly 50 percent of advanced students come from abroad at most German schools (80 percent at the School of the Hamburg Ballet)."

 

RBS had around 38% foreign students last year. I think this figure is across the whole school though. I don't know the figure for just Upper School where it is surely higher.

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by invisiblecircus

[Duck]

48 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

Monaco only has a population of about 38,000 - the size of a small town, so you can't really compare the international intake at a school there with one in a country like the UK with a population in excess of 66 million. 

 

Yes, fair point, looking at Monaco and France together in that case would give a better view.

 

[Viv]

On 03/08/2018 at 23:43, KeepDancing!! said:

If they are saying they are not recruiting from competitions that don't align with their own teaching ethics, best practices and that they consider to have healthy and age appropriate criteria, does the fact they are not recruiting at YAGP this coming year imply that YAGP is one such competition that doesn't align with their teaching ethics etc?

 

I have to say, these was the inference that stood out to me! Not exactly positive about the YAGP is it? And, though it seems a remarkable 180 from schools attitude to YAGP in the past, I actually welcome it. While YAGP gives wonderful opportunities to dancers of many ages, all over the world, it shocks and concerns me to see the number of their 'pre-competitive' age division competing, and winning, en pointe! 9 and 10 year olds wildly cavorting as Kitri, with no sense of what they're actually portraying, or the untold damage they are most likely doing to their bodies. It's quite sickening. While YAGP not only allows these children to compete en pointe, but also actively rewards them for it, I very much struggle to support it as a competition. I hope that RBS's stance, for whatever reason it was taken, might encourage other schools to have a long hard look at the culture they are supporting. They're not willing to put their own students en pointe that age, but will look the other way, or even congratulate other schools for doing so? And the more 9 year old winners we have en pointe this year, the more competitors there will be doing it next year, because clearly that's what it takes to win... 

 

Sorry for the tangent, it just struck me and I'm rather unqualified to comment about the doom and gloom of RBS holding more international auditions. As an Australian, my first thought was 'hurray!' so I'm clearly looking at it from the wrong angle. I just think of the girls I am training with, who are desperate to have access to the sort of training British students can access. Australia has one vocational school, the Australian Ballet School, and if you aren't the right fit for them, you have no choice but to look overseas. All the 'full time' or 'vocational' training on offer in Australia is a dance program run through a studio, with online school tucked around the edges for a couple of hours a day (and I promise, there are no MDS style funding arrangements in place for these programs). While I do understand the position many of you are coming from, and there do need to be questions raised about whether White Lodge training is really preparing students to be competitive in the ballet job market, I also think you should consider how lucky you are to have access to some of the best training in the world without having to leave your family a 20 hour flight behind you at the age of 16...

 

If White Lodge students start finishing year 11 and being totally unsuccessful for any of the dozens of upper schools available within the UK, then I'll agree you have something to worry about.

[Pups_mum]

I fully agree with you Viv. I find the sight of pre pubertal girls performing "grown up" variations en pointe distasteful and concerning. And we're not even talking about starting to do a few rises at the barre a little sooner than recommended. In order to have reached that level en pointe by 9 or 10 they must surely have started some years younger than that? Of course many physical activities have the potential to damage young bodies if too much is done too soon, but many sports do seem to be taking things more seriously nowadays and setting restrictions on what children can do at certain ages. I would certainly like to see ballet follow suite. Of course there will always be some natural variation, but setting minimum ages is, in my humble opinion, likely to protect more children than it will disadvantage. I would like to see more schools, teachers and parents taking a stand against this kind of thing.

[balletbean]

2 hours ago, Pups_mum said:

I fully agree with you Viv. I find the sight of pre pubertal girls performing "grown up" variations en pointe distasteful and concerning. And we're not even talking about starting to do a few rises at the barre a little sooner than recommended. In order to have reached that level en pointe by 9 or 10 they must surely have started some years younger than that? Of course many physical activities have the potential to damage young bodies if too much is done too soon, but many sports do seem to be taking things more seriously nowadays and setting restrictions on what children can do at certain ages. I would certainly like to see ballet follow suite. Of course there will always be some natural variation, but setting minimum ages is, in my humble opinion, likely to protect more children than it will disadvantage. I would like to see more schools, teachers and parents taking a stand against this kind of thing.

I am so pleased to read your comments. I have thought the same for so long of why a young child (they are certainly not teenagers) are performing what can only be described as adult roles. Some International schools are training their pupils just to compete in competitions to win and in a performance that lasts about 2 1/2 mins but UK Vocational Schools are training their pupils for a professional career. Many starting their careers as a junior young dancer within a company. Not the soloist in Don Quixote or similar. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by balletbean

[DD Driver]

6 hours ago, Viv said:

As an Australian, my first thought was 'hurray!' so I'm clearly looking at it from the wrong angle. I just think of the girls I am training with, who are desperate to have access to the sort of training British students can access. Australia has one vocational school, the Australian Ballet School, and if you aren't the right fit for them, you have no choice but to look overseas. All the 'full time' or 'vocational' training on offer in Australia is a dance program run through a studio, with online school tucked around the edges for a couple of hours a day (and I promise, there are no MDS style funding arrangements in place for these programs).

 

Viv - I hope the girls that you know who are 'desperate' to access training at the level of British students are 16 and over (?)

 

Before 16, I think Australian students can access excellent training locally if they set their mind to it. Many teachers in top studios are ex-principals/soloists from around the world - retiring in the sun maybe.  There is access to the broad array of local workshops with international visitors and of course overseas intensives, comps with master classes, summer schools and short-stay opportunities at top schools. Queensland Ballet pre-pro program is on the up. The success of so many students in getting into top schools around the world indicates that the local training in the early years is at the required level if you have the talent.

 

I know of several girls who have come back from top overseas schools pretty broken.  There is great value in learning in an environment where you have a strong support system around you and working with talented teachers who are personally invested in your success and happiness. 

[DD Driver]

so can I add....

The reason a 16 year old needs to travel overseas e.g. from Australia to a top ballet school is that the top schools are the primary filter system into the top companies.  There are very limited companies and apprentiships out there no matter where you live.    

[Viv]

46 minutes ago, DD Driver said:

Viv - I hope the girls that you know who are 'desperate' to access training at the level of British students are 16 and over (?)

 

They are 14 and 15 and, like many of the DC on here, are training hard every day to try and get into a classical upper school. I agree that many students, not just international students, can come back from these schools broken (all you need to do is read some of the recent threads on here to know that this is a serious problem!) but it becomes almost impossible to stop them when they want it so badly. While I agree that many Australians have access to amazing local lower level training (though I do place a geographic caveat on this, much like England the quality of training in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane is far better than what you can get in Wollongong for example), it's a simple fact that there are no classical finishing schools in Australia (besides ABS) the way there are in Europe. I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion of the poor, underprivileged, upper middle class Australian girls whose primary concern is which country they want to get off to over the summer, so I'll leave my comments about the topic there. Or I probably will... I don't know sometimes I can't help myself 😁

 

4 hours ago, balletbean said:

Some International schools are training their pupils just to compete in competitions to win and in a performance that lasts about 2 1/2 mins but UK Vocational Schools are training their pupils for a professional career. Many starting their careers as a junior young dancer within a company. Not the soloist in Don Quixote or similar. 

 

This is a concern of mine too! How many amazing, prodigious ballet talents win a scholarship, join a company and flame out? Through a combination of years of intense and sometimes dangerous training catching up with them, and suddenly being relegated to the back of the stage, waving a rose backwards and forwards while someone else does the solos they've spent years perfecting... In my opinion there is no substitute for solid, class based training, and the progression into a suitable finishing school if it is so appropriate. It's why I like many of the competitions run by the RAD. They have strict limits on the age at which one is allowed to perform en pointe and they set the variations that can be competed at certain levels to make sure they're age appropriate. I wish more competitions were like this, though of course RAD competitions are set by an authority whose primary focus is in training, not tricks. Perhaps that's what makes the difference.

[Melody]

On ‎07‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 13:05, alison said:

 

I think the conclusion has been that she wouldn't have made it into the Royal Ballet, so probably WL would have been unlikely as well.

Somehow I find this really depressing, thinking of what we'd have lost. Considering what Ninette de Valois said about her when she first saw her, it's just really sad that those qualities wouldn't have made up for not having long enough legs or whatever. It seems as though, physically, dancers are much more uniform than they were during the mid-20th century and especially than during the Ballets Russes era. I understand that the choreography is more demanding, but there has to be a balance.

[Pas de Quatre]

I think it is insidious to judge a dancer who was at the peak of her career over 60 - 70 years ago by today's standards.  She was one of the greatest ballerinas of her time, celebrated all over the world.  As a simple comparison - Sir Roger Bannister was the first to run a four minute mile in 1954.  It was considered an outstanding achievement.  These days most serious runners can do it and the current record is 3 mins 43.13 seconds.

[Kate_N]

3 hours ago, Melody said:

Somehow I find this really depressing, thinking of what we'd have lost.

 

But we didn't!!!! Margot Fonteyn had a very long career - we had her for a very long time. And everything else that @Pas de Quatre says. And - in response to part of the discussion above - remember how young she was when she started. As were many of the Diaghelev dancers, and the early Sadler's Wells ballet.

 

Ballet changes - I could write a long long post (well, it's because I'm writing a book partly about this) about the way ballet has developed from concert dance in the 1830s and 40s - bodies, choreography etc etc etc. One thing hasn't changed: it was always an international art form. Dancers travelled, and audiences all over Europe (and then the US) marvelled at the latest 'Italian" or "French' or 'German' novelty in ballet. It was a novelty and - for example - Elssler's fouettés were front page news. Because - apparently - no-one else had done them before.

 

I think @Pas de Quatre's comment sums it up for me:

 

Quote

As a simple comparison - Sir Roger Bannister was the first to run a four minute mile in 1954.  It was considered an outstanding achievement.  These days most serious runners can do it and the current record is 3 mins 43.13 seconds.

 

[Pas de Quatre]

Oops, early morning posts! Meant to write "invidious" not "insidious". 

[balletbean]

3 hours ago, Melody said:

Somehow I find this really depressing, thinking of what we'd have lost. Considering what Ninette de Valois said about her when she first saw her, it's just really sad that those qualities wouldn't have made up for not having long enough legs or whatever. It seems as though, physically, dancers are much more uniform than they were during the mid-20th century and especially than during the Ballets Russes era. I understand that the choreography is more demanding, but there has to be a balance.

My DD has had the privilege to be taught for the last 8 yrs by a past pupil of Dame Ninette De Valois. Even after 60yrs teaching, tradition lives on, none of the pupils are taught ‘variations’ for festivals and competitions just age appropriate choreography (and music) recorded in great detail in her treasured book. Some pieces are years old, just ‘tweaked’ to match the pupil’s level and ability at the time. “If it ain’t broken why fix it”. The older pupils love listening to stories about Dame De V and her method of teaching. So important that in the busy hectic world of 21st Century living that tradition lives on, even if it’s just a corner (ballet) of the Performing Arts Industry. 

[Jan McNulty]

I'm writing this as a ballet watcher, I've never had a dance lesson in my life.

 

I never had the privilege to watch Margot Fonteyn dance live but when I watch Youtube clips of her I can see what a very great artiste she was and I think her qualities would shine through today even against today's super-athletic dancers.

 

I started watching ballet in 1984 just when Peter Schaufuss had just employed Trinidad Sevillano as a 16 year old principal.  I always loved her performances and she was the first dancer I would make a special trip to see.  It wasn't until a couple of years ago, when there was a short discussion about her on another forum, that I saw some Youtube clips and realised how wonderful she was and how lucky I was to see her dance.  I suspect that she would not have fitted the bill for RBS either.

 

Dance is about so much more than build and athleticism.  As Kate_N says ballet is, and always has been, an art form and I hope we don't ever forget that.  I know this doesn't answer the issues about the RBS holding more overseas auditions but I just wanted to say that, as a ballet watcher, vive la difference in dancers, wherever they come from. 

[KeepDancing!!]

On 04/08/2018 at 17:13, LinMM said:

Keep Dancing.... I am not sure if the child you say was recruited from YAGP was in fact recruited in Australia first.....from an audition there? She attends or did a well known vocational school there so maybe the RB's "ethics" were okay with this school (Quite a few vocational schools in Australia are run by ex RB dancers even if from another era now!

The fact that this child has all these extra hours training is down to the parents not the school in the end( have no idea whether the school approves or not) 

The RB  may or may not have known this at the time of recruiting but are probably....if they did know...turning a blind eye to what the parents may be providing as "extra"!! And going by what the school actually provided.

 

A good point you made here - so I thought I would check on YAGP results page.

 

In fact at YAGP Paris finals 2018 (which took place last winter) there were four full year scholarships given by the Royal Ballet school at the competition to prize winners, 2 of which were full time acceptance into the upper school.

 

I wonder what has changed in the space of 8 months, with regard to recruiting from YAGP, as they were definitely recruiting from there last season?

 

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by KeepDancing!!
to clarify finals in Paris

[KeepDancing!!]

In terms of the other point, relating to RBS recruiting from international competitions etc for upper school, possibly at expense of their own trained students from Lower school, I would guess the reason people feel 'energised' about this is that it appears to be contradictory to their training methods at lower school, which it has been noted are slower and more measured than the training so many international trained students receive in those years.

 

So is the question being asked, why is their training at lower school level like that, when they recruit students for upper school who are more advanced technically as a result of more intensive training?

[Xandra Newman]

One should also ask the following question: what is the difference in injury rate/occurrence between those professional dancers who started their (slower) training at the RBS Lower School and finished their training at the Upper School and those who were/are recruited into the RBS Upper School having received more intensive early training?