Royal Ballet School holding more international auditions

[Pas de Quatre]

I think you make some good points for discussion Fred, however another thought is that several more schools come into play at 16+.  Not everyone in the three lower schools actually wants to continue up into their Upper School/6th form.  Some would prefer to move to schools that don't have a lower school - ENB, Rambert, Central, Laines, Birds etc. so it dilutes the mix. (This list is only as illustration there will be other names that should be included).

 

[Lifeafterballet]

I have a cynical hat on too 😊

It makes more sense to me that RBS would choose to conduct international auditions instead of attending YAGP for example as those children have not paid RBS for the privilege of being considered for the school. At, is it £60 a go now for the audition, it’s a real income generator. 

Im going to keep my hat on today 😂

[Farawaydancer]

2 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

I think you make some good points for discussion Fred, however another thought is that several more schools come into play at 16+.  Not everyone in the three lower schools actually wants to continue up into their Upper School/6th form.  Some would prefer to move to schools that don't have a lower school - ENB, Rambert, Central, Laines, Birds etc. so it dilutes the mix. (This list is only as illustration there will be other names that should be included).

 

 

However I would have thought that the vast majority of white lodge pupils would audition for US and not many would turn it down if offered?

[straceydor]

Lots of parents whose children dance have never heard of the hammond tring or elmhurst for the top lower schools. For upper schools unless someone in the school you are at or something like this forum nobody has heard of the upper schools. Two friends are looking at upper schools for their dd but they have no idea.

[Lisa O`Brien]

On 01/08/2018 at 14:20, balletbean said:

I'be been told that Japan definitely fund their teenagers. Italy, Gremany and Spain also support their teenagers when training in England. Whilst coming under the umbrella of the EU and therefore a DaDa these countries also independantly support their teenagers. Which could go someway to explain some of the choices for the schools overseas auditions. I doubt very much if it would be financially viable for the schools to travel to these locations for auditions otherwise. 

 

It's such a shame that not everyone from GB qualifies for funding through the DaDa scheme, just those within the UK/EU.

Are you in the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man, Balletbean?

[LinMM]

Keep Dancing.... I am not sure if the child you say was recruited from YAGP was in fact recruited in Australia first.....from an audition there? She attends or did a well known vocational school there so maybe the RB's "ethics" were okay with this school (Quite a few vocational schools in Australia are run by ex RB dancers even if from another era now!

The fact that this child has all these extra hours training is down to the parents not the school in the end( have no idea whether the school approves or not) 

The RB  may or may not have known this at the time of recruiting but are probably....if they did know...turning a blind eye to what the parents may be providing as "extra"!! And going by what the school actually provided.

[balletbean]

24 minutes ago, Lisa O`Brien said:

Are you in the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man, Balletbean?

Channel Islands. 

[Vonrothbart]

1 hour ago, straceydor said:

Lots of parents whose children dance have never heard of the hammond tring or elmhurst for the top lower schools. For upper schools unless someone in the school you are at or something like this forum nobody has heard of the upper schools. Two friends are looking at upper schools for their dd but they have no idea.

That's a fair comment, but any parent who's child shows promise and has ambitions in dance, would surely have enquired at a much younger age than 16.

[Pas de Quatre]

But surely any parent of a talented dancer would talk to their regular teacher for recommendations?  

[LinMM]

I agree it's usually the dance teacher who would recommend a child trying for an audition if they thought they at least have a chance.

But I suppose some keen parents or the parents of a very keen child may want to go ahead even if the teacher is not so sure about the possible outcome.

So many try and don't make it probably with the teachers recommendation.

It would definitely be more unusual in this media  day and age for people not to be aware of possible opportunities for talented children ...in any field ...before the age of sixteen.

[Pas de Quatre]

No one can predict the outcome of an audition of course,  but here we were talking about parents not having heard of schools other than RBS. 

[DD Driver]

5 hours ago, LinMM said:

Keep Dancing.... I am not sure if the child you say was recruited from YAGP was in fact recruited in Australia first.....from an audition there? She attends or did a well known vocational school there so maybe the RB's "ethics" were okay with this school (Quite a few vocational schools in Australia are run by ex RB dancers even if from another era now!

The fact that this child has all these extra hours training is down to the parents not the school in the end( have no idea whether the school approves or not) 

The RB  may or may not have known this at the time of recruiting but are probably....if they did know...turning a blind eye to what the parents may be providing as "extra"!! And going by what the school actually provided.

 

It is possible for a talented Australian dancer to compete at big comps such as YAGP over a number of years and also go to other comps such as Prix  de Lausanne AND attend RBS Summer schools over a number of years.  By the time such a person is made an offer of a place at a top ballet school (e.g. at a YAGP event) they may be well known to the school. 

 

One way that a student may be doing 40 plus hours pw is through Rhythmic Gymnastics.  The schedule for this is usually before and after school hours.  If you have talent then you might enter an elite program for a few years and even aim for World comps and the Olympics.  The hours do not necessarily conflict with one's school day or a ballet full time program.  A ballet school may not approve of the workload but allow the student and their family free choice subject to monitoring by a dance physio. Another ballet school might even recommend RG in the early years after seeing some previous successes.

Edited August 4, 2018 by DD Driver
word change/ delete spacing

[LinMM]

Of course the student being referred to was a junior rhythmic gymnastic champion before deciding to finally give this up for the ballet training!! She is naturally very flexible so lucky for her!! 

I don't know whether you need this 40 hours a week to become successful....most likely not ...but some people could have 40 hours a week and still not make the grade!! 

I have a suspicion this 40 hour a week thing was for a short time only ....mainly in the build up to a competition/ audition etc.

This particular young lady is a very talented dancer in my view and can see why the Royal might be interested in her. Hopefully though her time at the Royal may give her a chance to concentrate on some consolidation without having to keep preparing for some competition. Just hope she hasn't done it all too soon and so suffers from some sort of "burn out" 

In an interview in an Australia Newspaper her mum has admitted just how expensive it all is and the family dont take holidays!! 

International Competitions seem more necessary for Australian dancers but it is a compliment to UK in a way that so many young students put the Royal Ballet as one of the main companies they want to join and still place such a high value on finishing their training with the RBS as to any other School of Ballet.

[Sadielou]

As the Director of the RBS was very recently heavily involved with YAGP - He has acted as, the head of the jury, been on the board of judges and taught master classes in Australia, Japan, Barcelona and the NY finals. We can only presume there must have been some kind of falling out between the two establishments, unless YAGP have radically changed their rules this year so they are no longer ethically in line with the RBS training !

[Kate_N]

On 03/08/2018 at 10:21, Balletmum55 said:

hat they do not necessarily stay for the whole time at White Lodge, and then fewer still are selected for upper school,  I thought it was an interesting observation which shows how tough the training programme is as more international students (plus students from other Lower schools / different training routes etc) aim to join the Royal Ballet as they get older.

 

This is a pretty good summary overview of any course of ballet training in an individual's life. I really don't see that it necessarily leads to conspiracy theories about "bad" or unsatisfactory WL training, nor the idea (which I am increasingly uncomfortable with in this thread) that the RBS Upper School prefers "foreigners" (horrible word) to "British" students.

 

(It raises the question about what makes someone "British" in the first place? - but that is not for this messageboard - I will just say though, that having been a migrant twice (once back to my country of birth & 500 years of family history), that line of questioning can be experienced as hostile, frankly).

 

Young children's bodies change. Young people's minds change. There are injuries. There is loss of interest.

 

There is also the really really hard & tough reality that young children in WL are often taken for potential: some indication that their bodies and their abilities & talents have potential for excellence at the very highest level possible in the world (ie to dance with the Royal Ballet - one of the very best companies in the world). But we all know that potential  at 8 or 10 doesn't always translate into the actual level of ability needed at 18. And that bodies change. 

 

We all know this, I'm not saying anything that we don't know rationally. But I think we need to remember that on this thread. 

 

The rate of children going from WL to the US doesn't mean that WL training is inadequate. It may mean that potential  isn't being realised. Just as when children choose GCSE subjects, and then choose A Level subjects. There is a process of choice and discrimination between options, taking into account ability and achievement - and the ability aspect is the tough one, isn't it? Ability to go further in level of achievement. In ballet training at this elite level there is the added pressure of time, and the sense that training the body (and mind) in ballet is something of a race. 

 

All of these things can make it heartbreaking on an individual basis, but that is no way to direct policy at the broader level. It seems to me that this is the painful crunch point that we're partly talking about.

[LinMM]

I am not condoning this bemoaning of "foreigners" taking over the Upper School at RBS in any way but I wonder if it's UK residents paying tax towards the RBS issue which is partly at the bottom of it....for some people.

To me ballet is an international thing and if there are some ballet students from abroad studying at RBS as long as they are very good I haven't an issue with it. As I said previously the RBS training even just at the Upper School level must stand for something and be something an awful lot of dancers worldwide desire judging by what they say......The Royal and ABT come out a lot in desirability for end training and Companies at the top of dancers wish lists to join. 

I'm ancient now ...a 50's dancing babe but the RB got it right in my case all those years ago...I wasn't good enough! (And I knew it at the time age 11) 

What they could not have known of course is that my passion for doing ballet would be a life long thing!! 

So those who don't make it through at 16 for all the kinds of reasons already mentioned it doesn't mean it's the end of dancing....just not as a career!! 

Its the same for lots of other careers .....how many dream of being Doctors or Astronauts ....even just pilots etc but don't make it in the end for all sorts of reasons some of them physical as in ballet.

Edited August 5, 2018 by LinMM

[balletbean]

On 04/08/2018 at 17:58, Vonrothbart said:

That's a fair comment, but any parent who's child shows promise and has ambitions in dance, would surely have enquired at a much younger age than 16.

Sadly the can’t be said for those in our local Education Dept . Having recently been asked ‘What is Ballet?’ When engaged in a conversation about qualifications & funding!!  😩😡

[Vonrothbart]

47 minutes ago, balletbean said:

Sadly the can’t be said for those in our local Education Dept . Having recently been asked ‘What is Ballet?’ When engaged in a conversation about qualifications & funding!!  😩😡

Well how do you answer a question like that? (It's a type of dance I suppose) I find that incredible BB, and I think they were maybe taking the mick.

[LinMM]

I suppose in the end one could ask would Ninette de Valois be "turning in her grave" at this current announcement!! 

She had created the Vic Wells Company and school to train students in a uniquely English style of Dance and was a genuine innovator for her time. Having danced with the Ballet Russes she probably had knowledge of how things operated over there in Russia and wanted to do something similar here for English dancers......creating an English style.

Its interesting that the Russian schools in St Petersburg and Moscow each renowned originally for their own unique style are now funding more "foreign students"to train there and even eventually join their Companies  than ever before. But also people are saying that both these major Companies....Mariinsky and Bolshoi ....are now losing their unique and distinctive qualities. So perhaps the modern globalisation of ballet and more open cultural exchanges of teachers choreographers and dancers is responsible for this there too.

It would be interesting to know what the fall out rate is these days from these two prestigious schools regards their own national students....how many complete the training and/or eventually join the company connected to the school. Is it all more rigorous there or are similar things happening? 

Perhaps it is impossible in today's more connected world to retain all these individualities of national and company styles however interesting.....things have to move on  with the times....as de Valois did in fact.

To come back specifically to the RBS ......one thing that struck me from the article Mummy twinkle toes posted is that some experienced teachers have said that with the continual fear of being assessed out of the RBS we are losing some of the more potentially highly creative dancers and artists .....so what if there was no assessment out until 16 at least? Is this worth a try? There would still be the Upper school issues I think but perhaps the balance of English students reaching the excellence required at 16 would be greater? 

I don't know. It certainly feels like the very original de Valois set up was more nurturing in approach but then the Company and school are so much bigger these days.....nothing stands still in the end.

 

 

[Kate_N]

22 hours ago, LinMM said:

if it's UK residents paying tax towards the RBS issue which is partly at the bottom of it.

 

I don't know exactly for the RBS (although I'd refer back to ToursenLair's post about the Canadian equivalent) but generally, and DEFINITELY in English universities, non-Home/EU student fees are a significantly higher than local/EU student fees. In English universities, the non-Home/EU tuition fee actually represents the real cost of a university education, and subsidises Home/EU tuition fees. And the quota for Home/EU students is NOT reduced by the number of non-Home/EU students recruited. The USA operates a similar system, with the added complication of in-State funding for State residents in State-funded colleges. So another layer: in-State, out-of-State, overseas.

 

I find that these are the 2 persistent inaccuracies about non-Home/EU students in universities. I'd hazard a guess that the same kinds of principles govern the RBS. If that is the case, non-Home/EU fees actually subsidise Home/EU fees.

 

One thing I don't know with clarity: the RBS is not a state-funded school is it? By that I mean, I've always assumed it's in the category of  independent fee-paying schools, as are Elmhurst and Tring? (My mother attended Tring for her whole education waaaaaay back, coming from a family whose standard education was boarding prep then boarding public school).

[Nicola H]

1 hour ago, Kate_N said:

 

<snip>

 

One thing I don't know with clarity: the RBS is not a state-funded school is it? By that I mean, I've always assumed it's in the category of  independent fee-paying schools, as are Elmhurst and Tring? (My mother attended Tring for her whole education waaaaaay back, coming from a family whose standard education was boarding prep then boarding public school).

here we get into the stuff  where  people assume  because it's got RB  branding  it's an integral part of the organisation and  subsidised by the  state aid the company  receives, or the  misapprehension that the State paying towards services  somehow makes it everyone's (i.e those attending  Lower Schools on MDS and  those attending upper schools on DaDA  ( similar  rubbish talked about the NHS  and on a local level  when schools  enforce  perimeter security of  their sites  and  school playing fields   can;t be routinely  trespassed on out of  hours  any longer )... 
 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Nicola H

[balletbean]

12 hours ago, Vonrothbart said:

Well how do you answer a question like that? (It's a type of dance I suppose) I find that incredible BB, and I think they were maybe taking the mick.

It wasn’t taking the mick. That’s what was so shocking. A genuine question which was raised by a local politician in the middle of a formal meeting about funding. I thought I was so prepared on my facts and figures but that one question just reduced me to a jibbering idiot. And this was the Politician responsible for Education. I think she needed to look closer to home of who needed Educating. You can’t argue with stupid. Heaven help us all. 

[RuthE]

13 hours ago, LinMM said:

To come back specifically to the RBS ......one thing that struck me from the article Mummy twinkle toes posted is that some experienced teachers have said that with the continual fear of being assessed out of the RBS we are losing some of the more potentially highly creative dancers and artists .....so what if there was no assessment out until 16 at least? Is this worth a try? There would still be the Upper school issues I think but perhaps the balance of English students reaching the excellence required at 16 would be greater? 

 

The disadvantage of this approach would be that a student not up to the required standard to pass a Year 7 audition* could come on in leaps and bounds and, a year or two later, be exceptional enough to merit a place.  And there would almost certainly be no place available for them until Upper School.

 

Indeed, if memory serves, Yasmine Naghdi was unsuccessful in her Year 7 audition and joined WL in Year 8. If nobody was assessed out, perhaps she wouldn't be where she is now.

 

*edited to add: or unlucky enough to audition for Year 7 in a year when the standard is even higher than usual...

Edited August 6, 2018 by RuthE

[Guest]

On ‎05‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 10:35, LinMM said:

I am not condoning this bemoaning of "foreigners" taking over the Upper School at RBS in any way but I wonder if it's UK residents paying tax towards the RBS issue which is partly at the bottom of it....for some people.

To me ballet is an international thing and if there are some ballet students from abroad studying at RBS as long as they are very good I haven't an issue with it. As I said previously the RBS training even just at the Upper School level must stand for something and be something an awful lot of dancers worldwide desire judging by what they say......The Royal and ABT come out a lot in desirability for end training and Companies at the top of dancers wish lists to join. 

I'm ancient now ...a 50's dancing babe but the RB got it right in my case all those years ago...I wasn't good enough! (And I knew it at the time age 11) 

What they could not have known of course is that my passion for doing ballet would be a life long thing!! 

So those who don't make it through at 16 for all the kinds of reasons already mentioned it doesn't mean it's the end of dancing....just not as a career!! 

Its the same for lots of other careers .....how many dream of being Doctors or Astronauts ....even just pilots etc but don't make it in the end for all sorts of reasons some of them physical as in ballet.

What also fuels this discontent, is the perception that it is not entirely a 2 way street. Yes, there are a number of dc cited on this forum that have trained very successfully at schools in other countries, however this is seen as a remarkable achievement and not the norm? There is a sense that dance schools in other countries ensure a good proportion of places go to their home students, whereas UK schools do not do so. I have no way of knowing how true this is. Thoughts anyone?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

4 hours ago, Kate_N said:

 

 

One thing I don't know with clarity: the RBS is not a state-funded school is it? By that I mean, I've always assumed it's in the category of  independent fee-paying schools, as are Elmhurst and Tring? (My mother attended Tring for her whole education waaaaaay back, coming from a family whose standard education was boarding prep then boarding public school).

 

It is indeed a private fee paying school but the government pay/contribute to more places via the MDS scheme to those who meet the residency criteria. Hence the perceptiopn of tax payers paying for the training although it tends to be forgotten that higher income families often have to contribute a significant amount in fees.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

52 minutes ago, RuthE said:

 

The disadvantage of this approach would be that a student not up to the required standard to pass a Year 7 audition* could come on in leaps and bounds and, a year or two later, be exceptional enough to merit a place.  And there would almost certainly be no place available for them until Upper School.

 

Indeed, if memory serves, Yasmine Naghdi was unsuccessful in her Year 7 audition and joined WL in Year 8. If nobody was assessed out, perhaps she wouldn't be where she is now.

 

*edited to add: or unlucky enough to audition for Year 7 in a year when the standard is even higher than usual...

 

I'm not convinced this would be the case.  At all the other schools (Ellmhurst do assess out after year 9 though) places become available for a variety of reasons other than being assessed out.

[Kate_N]

3 hours ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

Hence the perceptiopn of tax payers paying for the training although it tends to be forgotten that higher income families often have to contribute a significant amount in fees.

 

Indeed. I know that my grandparents paid for my mother to go to Tring - no state funding at all.

 

That helps clarify things for me (at any rate), Pictures. It's not a 'state school' as such (I knew Elmhurst isn't), so actually, non-Home/EU students will be making it cheaper for UK students to attend, if their financial model is similar to other educational institutions (people should look at the number of non-UK students at any of the top public schools, such as Eton,. for example ...)

Edited August 6, 2018 by Kate_N

[LinMM]

Well as long as the RBS is able to find the money to fund scholarships for those really talented dancers whose parents no way would be able to afford the fees that's good ....a good many on scholarships  I hope .....or the ballet world will truely  become more and more elitist unfortunately.

[Pas de Quatre]

For independent schools, unlike further education/university, there is only one level of fees. It doesn't matter who is paying. The only difference is whether the pupil is day or a boarder.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

For independent schools, unlike further education/university, there is only one level of fees. It doesn't matter who is paying. The only difference is whether the pupil is day or a boarder.

My non-d's independent school offered substantial academic scholarships (a big chunk off the fees) and music scholarships (free music training) that were declared openly. They also provided full bursaries, very discreetly, to outstandingly talented children from low income families. Not a bad system at all.

[Pas de Quatre]

I think that is the way many independent schools operate. I was just meaning to clarify that if you are paying full fees it doesn't matter whether you come from UK or abroad.

[Melody]

One thing that bothers me a bit, reading some of the above posts, is that I've seen a few mentions of WL looking for a particular body type as the major criterion, over and above things like musicality or even dance ability (someone please tell me if I've got this wrong). But I've also seen comments along the lines of "of course, bodies change, you don't always know what an 11-year-old will look like at 16."

 

While I understand that a vocational ballet school isn't going to take a spherical 11-year-old, however musical and light on her feet she is, it seems a bit short-sighted to be that focused on long legs and long neck and small ears or whatever, rather than musicality and dance potential, especially in light of how bodies change as girls hit puberty. I sometimes wonder if Margot Fonteyn would get into White Lodge if she showed up today.

[Pointetoes]

It should be remembered that it does work both ways, in that UK students do audition abroad. I know 2 current US students who didn’t get into WL for yr 7 but are now at US . One did get in into WL Yr9 but the other didn’t they both auditioned abroad at 16 and got offered several places as well as US.