Royal Ballet School holding more international auditions

[balletbean]

On 21/07/2018 at 09:51, Sadielou said:

Gob smacked that the RBS are proudly advertising this. How much more insecure must this make current RBS / UK students feel.  Also saw that ENBS are increasing their international auditions, Mexico is a new venue. Makes me so sad, why is this allowed to happen. 

Probably funding. ENBS only offer DaDa funding. As we all know a DaDa has its limits/restrictions. 

RBS have their own ‘very generous sponsors’ that help towards fees for the US. So I suspect overseas pupils maybe funded by their own local authority/country that actively support the Arts and the additional funds are welcomed at the schools. International fee rate is well above what a U.K. pupil would pay if not in receipt of a DaDa. 

 

Not that I agree as I don’t recall seeing overseas Vocational Schools auditioning pupils in the U.K.  Appears to be one way only. 

 

[balletbean]

On 21/07/2018 at 10:45, Sadielou said:

Ballet is now becoming more elitist than ever, very few ballet parents I know could go to the lengths needed to ready their child for some of these international competitions. Daily private coaching, costumes, travel, accommodation, audition photos, videos even the entrance fees in some cases are extreme. Therefore unfortunately many talented children are reliant on MDS awards / scholarships from the junior sections of the UK vocational schools and being very badly let down. How can you seriously expect year 7 and 8's that are literally doing single pirouettes from parallel and galops from the corner (RAD grade 1 level) to compete with those that are doing full blown Don Q solo's at the same age and doing them very well. These schools need to be brought to task, where are the teachers and training needed to allow these kids to perform along side the foreign talent on the world stage. If they are not able to train the younger children to the standard they themselves require then serious questions need to be answered.  

Even though we live in GB we are outside the U.K. jurisdiction and therefore not eligible for any funding for lower and upper schools. Makes my blood boil as our local authority only recognise Degree/Uni Education for funding. 

However, if anyone (there have been plenty) happens to make a name for themselves on stage or screen both TV and Film they are quick to congratulate them and bounce off their free advertising for tourism purposes etc!!! 😡. 

[Colman]

I suspect that this is to counteract a drop-off in lucrative foreign applications, especially since the funding environment in the U.K. is likely to become even more difficult in the future for the same reasons I suspect that non U.K. applications are down. 

[Kate_N]

On 27/07/2018 at 09:30, balletbean said:

Not that I agree as I don’t recall seeing overseas Vocational Schools auditioning pupils in the U.K.  Appears to be one way only. 

 

As far as I am aware, that is not an accurate perception. Most large, internationally leading schools across the world take non-domestic students, and they must audition to be accepted. 

 

Usually, the non-domestic fee is the real full cost of the education; the domestic or home/EU student fee is subsidised. I can't speak for RBS policy over admissions numbers, but in UK universities, non-domestic students do not take the places of Home/EU students. And the international mix is excellent for all - UK students mix and learn with students from different cultures and training ethics and practices. It's all an important part of their education. Our young people who aim high in any field will need to think globally. And a good thing too! One of the very best ways to promote global understanding and peace is to educate people of different cultures, languages, and ethics together.

[toursenlair]

28 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

As far as I am aware, that is not an accurate perception. Most large, internationally leading schools across the world take non-domestic students, and they must audition to be accepted. 

 

Usually, the non-domestic fee is the real full cost of the education; the domestic or home/EU student fee is subsidised.

 

For instance here are the numbers for Canada's National Ballet School:

 

Professional Ballet Program 2018-2019 Tuition

Canadian Students

Tuition	Day Students	Residence Students
Grades 6-8	$16,550	$35,300
Grades 9-11	$16,800	$35,550
Grade 12	$16,800	$33,850
PSP	$14,950	$32,000*

International Students

Tuition	Day Students*	Residence Students
Grades 6-8	$31,400	$50,150
Grades 9-11	$31,750	$50,500
Grade 12	$31,750	$48,800
PSP	$27,150	$44,200*

[Wigglybunny]

A related observation from the RBS programme at the Holland Park performances this year was the percentage of students who were JAs/MAs. Each student from yr7-US were listed by school year in the programme and if they were a JA/MA they had an asterisk next to their name. For year 7/8 it was the case for the majority, by yr 10/11 it was about half. In the first year of US it was about a third and by the third year there were no asterisks. It made me a bit sad, but is a wholy unscientific observation! 

[sarahw]

@Wigglybunny that puts it in stark reality. I imagine most DC at WL know they will need to apply elsewhere in addition to US.....

[junedancer]

DD met someone from WL at summer school who takes private lessons “to help prepare for RB US” auditions. I was initially surprised but having read your post @Wigglybunny that does make sense that they may have to consider additional tuition.

[Kate_N]

But that could be because their local studio cannot or does not offer enough classes at a high enough level. Going by posts on here, it’s  a constant concern for serious ballet students outside of large cities in the UK. 

 

And in my opinion, having seen a little of the professional ballet world from the inside, most suburban schools’ attachment to RAD or similar syllabi doesn’t actually do serious pre-professional students many favours past a certain level. It tends to set up expectations which might exceed achievement, partly because even the vocational grades are designed to teach recreational students. 

 

 

[junedancer]

@Kate_N sorry I wasn’t clear - this was a WL pupil my DD met at another summer school not at WL.

 

Not withstanding, I agree with the comments you have made.

Edited July 30, 2018 by junedancer
Additional comment.

[Mummy twinkle toes]

This article may have been posted before but is interesting reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2012/mar/25/will-they-make-royal-ballet

[DD Driver]

22 hours ago, Wigglybunny said:

A related observation from the RBS programme at the Holland Park performances this year was the percentage of students who were JAs/MAs. Each student from yr7-US were listed by school year in the programme and if they were a JA/MA they had an asterisk next to their name. For year 7/8 it was the case for the majority, by yr 10/11 it was about half. In the first year of US it was about a third and by the third year there were no asterisks. It made me a bit sad, but is a wholy unscientific observation! 

 

Given the changes that occur in our bodies from 11 yrs on, it seems a bit of a leap to think that this advantage - of having the right aesthetic at that age - will be enough to see you through long term.  And I believe body type ('potential') plays a very large part in selection at this age over and above say flexibility or being able to demonstrate your performance ability/musicality as you would in a competition.

 

Maybe 20 years ago, if you were chosen at 11 and then trained at vocational school then the unsuccessful candidates (or those not applying so young) could not so easily access quality training elsewhere.

 

The Australian Ballet ITP (Interstate/International Training Program) students appear to be selected in a similar way to the UK, Canadian etc junior associates.  Various skills are tested at auditions - for 9 yrs and up - but aesthtics seem to play a large part in selection at the younger years i.e. not just facility in terms of turn-out but having the desired look/body type.  The result is that at the young ITP training workshops the range in dance ability is wide.   Not exactly an elite crew.  Some serious culling then starts to happen at 13/14 years old.  Unkind people might say that it is a money-maker up to that point. In their defence, you are not being forced to play the game!

  

[hfbrew]

It is interesting reading. However I remember reading it and being frustrated because the article was clearly leading up to the fact that that year (2012) no one was taken into the Royal Ballet having been at the school since year 7. But that is not the full story. As it happens there are now 3 from that year who are or were in the company. And there is at least one other in the company who is British trained ,not at WL but elsewhere before joining Upper School. ( I don't wish to mention names but it is my ds year group .)

 

And the article does not mention those who joined other companies other than the Royal. Likewise there were a few people who joined WL later on who went to US and got contracts. The statistics for this particular year are actually better than for some others, over half actually ended up dancing professionally  even though the path for some ended up being via other establishments. But it certainly vindicated their selection as JAs during primary school age.

 

The year above however was almost entirely different in year 11 to the original year 7 cohort but two are now RB Principals. And the years below have also produced dancers that are very successful and are rising stars.

 

I was lucky enough to observe US classes at a time when all these were training. And what a joy to see international talent ,everyone merited their place. However the UK trained students held their own and for me as a teacher it was very interesting to see past the multiple pirouettes and high extensions of some of the overseas students and note that they struggled with musicality, placement and control.

 

Obviously I am a bit out of the loop now as I currently don't have any students in full time vocational training. But I am sure that it is still true that percentages of UK students in Upper Schools in general vary from year to year and that there are many different reasons as to why the Ballet journey comes to an end sooner rather than later for those in full time training from an early age.  Thanks to my own DS , I have learnt a lot about overseas training from his fellow international professionals. And they envy the opportunities for training in the UK and the safer practices. They may have succeeded themselves but like with students in the UK, many fall by the wayside. 

 

Edited July 30, 2018 by hfbrew
Just wanted to say that this is in response to mummy twinkle toes post!

[Kate_N]

Very wise post @hfbrew I agree wholeheartedly with your approach & analysis.

 

Your points about body changes are very pertinent, and we might add in injury to that. I remember a physiotherapist telling me that for most elite athletic training, you need to be pretty much biomechanically perfect.

 

And I'm sure there is a range of reasons for pupils in elite ballet schools for not going on into the profession - we will never know why and I don't think that stats from a couple of years tell us much. We probably need to look at stats over a decade or more. And look at that world wide: ballet (like elite music training, or elite athletic/sports training) is global.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Kate_N

[Pas de Quatre]

The year that nobody was taken into the RB company from the school was simply because nobody had left the company and so there were no places!  I was at the US for an event, (I can't remember off hand whether it was for teachers of associates, an audition preparation day or whatever) and Jay Jolley told us about this problem with a mixture of pride i.e. RBS was such a happy company nobody was leaving, and sadness that there was no room for any US students to be taken into the company.  He stressed that it wasn't the end of the road for the US students and that after a year or two in another company they might well end up back with RB, which in fact did happen to some.

 

I have always wondered whether this played a part in the creation of the Aud Jebsen apprenticeships.

[taxi4ballet]

On 29/07/2018 at 11:54, Kate_N said:

 

As far as I am aware, that is not an accurate perception. Most large, internationally leading schools across the world take non-domestic students, and they must audition to be accepted. 

I think the point balletbean was making (and forgive me if I'm mistaken) was that most of these schools hold their auditions at home - you travel to them. They don't go out of their way to seek out international students by holding their auditions in other countries.

 

Unlike ENBS, for instance, which holds nearly all of its auditions overseas. If you look at their auditions page right now, you will see 13 separate upcoming audition days. Just three of those will be held at ENBS in London, and one of the three is reserved for overseas students only. So 11 out of the 13 auditions are intended for international students.  

Edited July 31, 2018 by taxi4ballet

[balletbean]

On 31/07/2018 at 09:32, taxi4ballet said:

I think the point balletbean was making (and forgive me if I'm mistaken) was that most of these schools hold their auditions at home - you travel to them. They don't go out of their way to seek out international students by holding their auditions in other countries.

 

Unlike ENBS, for instance, which holds nearly all of its auditions overseas. If you look at their auditions page right now, you will see 13 separate upcoming audition days. Just three of those will be held at ENBS in London, and one of the three is reserved for overseas students only. So 11 out of the 13 auditions are intended for international students.  

Thank you taxi4ballet. You’ve explained my point much better than I did 😉

 

From my research. Other countries also offer substantial funding for their teenagers to train in the U.K. Sadly, the same cannot be said in reverse. Afterall these prestigious schools are a business that have huge running costs. Even the overseas audition process itself for the schools would be costly. They have to factor all this in.   They obviously go where the money is. Makes business sense. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by balletbean

[DD Driver]

1 hour ago, balletbean said:

From my research. Other countries also offer substantial funding for their teenagers to train in the U.K. 

 

Which countries offer substantial funding for their teenagers to train in the UK?

 

I had not heard of that.  The only Australian options I know of - for example - are some Arts scholarship that usually go to musicians or artists going to overseas specialist universities.  Ballet vocational schools don't fit the mold.

Harrison Lee won a scholarship last year but that was from The Marten Bequest. Only administered - but not funded - by the Arts Council. 

 

[balletbean]

1 hour ago, DD Driver said:

 

Which countries offer substantial funding for their teenagers to train in the UK?

 

I had not heard of that.  The only Australian options I know of - for example - are some Arts scholarship that usually go to musicians or artists going to overseas specialist universities.  Ballet vocational schools don't fit the mold.

Harrison Lee won a scholarship last year but that was from The Marten Bequest. Only administered - but not funded - by the Arts Council. 

 

I'be been told that Japan definitely fund their teenagers. Italy, Gremany and Spain also support their teenagers when training in England. Whilst coming under the umbrella of the EU and therefore a DaDa these countries also independantly support their teenagers. Which could go someway to explain some of the choices for the schools overseas auditions. I doubt very much if it would be financially viable for the schools to travel to these locations for auditions otherwise. 

 

It's such a shame that not everyone from GB qualifies for funding through the DaDa scheme, just those within the UK/EU.

[Kate_N]

Well I suppose I'd see that as an issue with our UK government policies, not the schools themselves ?

Edited August 1, 2018 by Kate_N

[DD Driver]

I expect that the recent advertising of international auditions by The RBS is mostly forewarning that they will not be at YAGP in 2018/2019.

Concerns about comps may have led to a greater focus on creating more audition/intensive + audition opportunities.

 

On their website page where audition opportunities are detailed it spells out:

 

'The School will also continue to recruit students at selected competitions that align with our own teaching ethics, best practices and that we consider to have healthy and age-appropriate criteria, such as the Prix de Lausanne, Switzerland.'

 

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/2018/07/20/the-royal-ballet-school-expands-its-international-search-for-talent/

[sarahw]

So they are recruiting abroad 'ethically'??

[DD Driver]

37 minutes ago, sarahw said:

So they are recruiting abroad 'ethically'??

 

ha ha

Ballet 😂

[FredF]

On 30/07/2018 at 00:08, Wigglybunny said:

A related observation from the RBS programme at the Holland Park performances this year was the percentage of students who were JAs/MAs. Each student from yr7-US were listed by school year in the programme and if they were a JA/MA they had an asterisk next to their name. For year 7/8 it was the case for the majority, by yr 10/11 it was about half. In the first year of US it was about a third and by the third year there were no asterisks. It made me a bit sad, but is a wholy unscientific observation! 

So if this is the case, does that mean that White Lodge is failing in its teaching of these students in the lower school, not being able to get them to the required level compared to international schools?

[Nicola H]

1 hour ago, FredF said:

So if this is the case, does that mean that White Lodge is failing in its teaching of these students in the lower school, not being able to get them to the required level compared to international schools?

 whether someone is an associate or not is irrelevant  to WL to  RBS  Upper school  ,  especially as someone who is an MA  is  by the very nature of it not at WL ... ?

[Balletmum55]

I don’t think it’s irrelevant at all. It shows in a very rough manner, as originally highlighted by the poster, that although WL takes a large number of youngsters who have been through their training programme from an early age, either at year 7 entrance from JAs, or year 8/9/10 etc from MAs, that they do not necessarily stay for the whole time at White Lodge, and then fewer still are selected for upper school,  I thought it was an interesting observation which shows how tough the training programme is as more international students (plus students from other Lower schools / different training routes etc) aim to join the Royal Ballet as they get older. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Balletmum55
Missing words

[FredF]

1 hour ago, Nicola H said:

 whether someone is an associate or not is irrelevant  to WL to  RBS  Upper school  ,  especially as someone who is an MA  is  by the very nature of it not at WL ... ?

Sorry whats a "MA", not up to date on all these abbreviations?

Edited August 3, 2018 by FredF
missing word

[Balletmum55]

10 minutes ago, FredF said:

Sorry whats a "MA", not up to date on all these abbreviations?

A Mid associate (of the Royal Ballet) is the next stage from JAs (junior associates) - for academic years 7-9 (then they may wish to audition for senior associates ... 

 

There are fewer places than for JAs and classes take place at fewer centres around the country, and the class tends to be a mixed year group class for years 7-9 (may be different in London?).  Places are offered to children following an audition and are generally taken up if they don’t get a vocational school place of their choice or if they had chosen not to go away that age, but still wish to continue or start training weekly with the Royal Ballet School associate scheme (as although a lot of places are previous JAs, children who have not been JAs also can apply and get places on the scheme) 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Balletmum55
Additional info

[RuthE]

3 hours ago, Nicola H said:

 whether someone is an associate or not is irrelevant  to WL to  RBS  Upper school  ,  especially as someone who is an MA  is  by the very nature of it not at WL ... ?

 

Not quite irrelevant, because a student who is not an MA because they are at WL is likely to have been a JA, therefore would have an asterisk from their earlier training.

[KeepDancing!!]

3 hours ago, RuthE said:

 

Not quite irrelevant, because a student who is not an MA because they are at WL is likely to have been a JA, therefore would have an asterisk from their earlier training.

 

Yes, it seems totally relevant. Basically 99% of the students taken into WL at Y7 entry are JAs, (excepting international applicants). Therefore these are the students selected by RBS as most appropriate for their style of training at that point.

 

If those students are then trained by RBS at White Lodge and or the Upper school but are not making it through to the final year of Upper school training (where they would be denoted with an * in the programme) what has happened in the meantime?

 

Was it that the original selection process, which deemed them the most appropriate for their training, was wide of the mark?

Was it that the training the original selectees received over their time at the school resulted in them no longer being appropriate for the final year of the school?

Something else?

 

[KeepDancing!!]

17 hours ago, DD Driver said:

I expect that the recent advertising of international auditions by The RBS is mostly forewarning that they will not be at YAGP in 2018/2019.

Concerns about comps may have led to a greater focus on creating more audition/intensive + audition opportunities.

 

On their website page where audition opportunities are detailed it spells out:

 

'The School will also continue to recruit students at selected competitions that align with our own teaching ethics, best practices and that we consider to have healthy and age-appropriate criteria, such as the Prix de Lausanne, Switzerland.'

 

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/2018/07/20/the-royal-ballet-school-expands-its-international-search-for-talent/

 

 

If they are saying they are not recruiting from competitions that don't align with their own teaching ethics, best practices and that they consider to have healthy and age appropriate criteria, does the fact they are not recruiting at YAGP this coming year imply that YAGP is one such competition that doesn't align with their teaching ethics etc?

 

If so, it seems contradictory that they have offered a place to a high profile YAGP winner from last season to start at the upper school this September a year early, who has been widely publicised as saying they train upward of 40 hours a week (which is probably nearly double the hours most UK vocational students of 14 are doing) .

[hfbrew]

Quite a lot get jobs before the final year, certainly this was the case of the years around ds. 

[FredF]

17 hours ago, KeepDancing!! said:

 

Yes, it seems totally relevant. Basically 99% of the students taken into WL at Y7 entry are JAs, (excepting international applicants). Therefore these are the students selected by RBS as most appropriate for their style of training at that point.

 

If those students are then trained by RBS at White Lodge and or the Upper school but are not making it through to the final year of Upper school training (where they would be denoted with an * in the programme) what has happened in the meantime?

 

Was it that the original selection process, which deemed them the most appropriate for their training, was wide of the mark?

Was it that the training the original selectees received over their time at the school resulted in them no longer being appropriate for the final year of the school?

Something else?

 

I agree with you KeepDancing!! and on the "something else"....

 

So today I have my “cynical” hat on.

 

I would probably say it comes down to money and the brand name of the Royal Ballet School.

 

Say for example if your child was lucky to be offered a place for y7 at WL, Elmhurst & Tring Park (the assumed top 3 vocational schools in the UK) and as parents you come from a non ballet background which school would you send your child to? I would imagine at 9/10 would choose WL due to the brand name of the Royal Ballet School being regarded as the best in the world. However is it? Clearly the Upper School is fabulous and does feed into the company but these students have been cherry picked from all over the world at the age of 16 to go into Upper School and have not necessarily come from WL which has been discussed in previous posts.

 

Question: does this make WL irrelevant as part of the Royal Ballet company structure/group? Is it just acting as funding for whole group but benefits Upper School students most. Could it survive or have the same reputation if it was called “Richmond Ballet School”?

 

Question, if you could somehow compare just the UK lower schools (WL, Elmhurst, Tring…) for students entering y7 and remaining to their upper schools who would come out on top?

 

Question: On the funding side of things, if there was no grants (MDS) to send your children to ballet schools and you had to make the decision and fund yourself, looking at the stats (especially WL) of only a very small margin making it through the school would you choose to send your child to that school? Which then raises the question that does the school deserve to get funded places?

Maybe this would be good for another topic on how schools are awarded MDS places, how they are monitored to make sure the funding is used to benefit the children and not other aspects of the school.

 

I also would be interested to know, if this just a UK thing, how this compares to schools for example in Paris or America do they have more success in students starting at the very beginning going through to the company?

 

I will now remove my “cynical” hat