Departing Parent Envy

[Crystaltips]

"I wish so much that I could have talked to people like us, at the beginning of this journey and been open minded enough to believe how absolutely gruelling vocational training is and how damaging it can be to young minds and family relationships.

 

I wouldn’t have listened"

 

Right now I am really envying the parents whose dc have already made the tough decision to call time on dance. My dya (dance young adult) is just completing first year of vocational training and I have to say that I am more worried about the future than ever before. The experience of the school to date (don't wish to identify it but has been widely discussed in other posts) has been exceptionally disappointing.  Timetabling is done at very short notice (it changes each week) such that students often don't know until the last minute that they have free time, by which time it is too late to make plans. Lessons have been cancelled due to issues with e.g. utilities which surely could have been foreseen and avoided. On the other hand, lessons have gone ahead in an unlit studio with no music (piantist? nah) due to a powercut, a situation that would not be tolerated in a non vocational dance school. On my last  visit I was appalled at the dirtiness of the accommodation which is also extremely cramped (1 bathroom for 5 students and a kitchenette). In the time yda has been there, a 14-year love of ballet has been almost extinguished and there have been too many distressing phone calls about assessment results delivered bluntly and brutally. Any suggestions that I might contact the school are met with horror, and I suspect out of fear of retribution. It seems to me that the school is run entirely for the benefit of a favoured few with focus of resource and energy on what I would term vanity projects. Yet all are paying the same fees. I have several times assured yda that just walking away is an option that we would support, but they are adamant that they want to continue with the training to the end of the course. Given that only a very few of the students graduate into work, I am struggling to see what benefit this will deliver, but on the other hand I do understand that my young adult has to make the final choice. I suspect that my anxiety is being further heightened because yda's sibling is departing to an extremely prestigious university next academic year and the contrast could not be more marked. My yda, although reasonably able, has always hated anything academic and yes I also worry about the consequences of jumping out of the frying pan into an empty grate. If there is anyone out there who has ever felt as helpless and hopeless as this, what would you advise? Am I being an hysterical parent - or should I listen to my instincts?

[dancertaxi]

Oh dear crystaltips. I m sorry my only words of wisdom are to trust your gut instincts... 

My dd is only 10 but I ve had to steer some difficult decisions to leave a school she thought she loved but a teacher who was week in week out destroying her confidence and self esteem. 

Is your yda due to finish in July for this year? Have you looked at options to transfer anywhere else? I imagine your yda is looking at the situation with rose tinted glasses as the love for the arts blurs things but it sounds like it may not be the best place - apart from anything else the risk of injury dancing in unlit studios and unable to prepare for next lessons due to timetabling. 

 

I hope someone else can offer you more help...

[alison]

13 minutes ago, Crystaltips said:

"I wish so much that I could have talked to people like us, at the beginning of this journey and been open minded enough to believe how absolutely gruelling vocational training is and how damaging it can be to young minds and family relationships.

I wouldn’t have listened"

 

All the more reason why it can be helpful for former DPs to stick around and share their experience, even if they don't do so publicly.

 

Crystaltips, this sounds awful.  My gut reaction is to say get yda out of there, but I'll leave it to others with more experience.

[Jan McNulty]

3 minutes ago, alison said:

 

All the more reason why it can be helpful for former DPs to stick around and share their experience, even if they don't do so publicly.

 

 

 

Seconded.

 

Crystaltips, welcome to the Forum!  I'm only sorry that your first post has had to be about such a dreadful experience.

[angel]

I agree with this.  It's so difficult to share advice without telling the 'world' your now adult dc's business though.

 

I can say though that my dd hasn't actually decided not to dance again..just not at the moment.  They put so much of themselves in from such a young age and it can become completely and utterly who they are, their whole identity.

 

My advice would always to make sure that dance isn't all that they do.  Encourage an interest in other activities so that there is a plan B in sight from day 1.

 

Yes, trust your gut instincts Crystaltips.  Don't let the school intimidate you.  I've had to be quite tough with my younger dd's school and it has meant that I have developed a much more equal relationship with them than I had with my older dd's schools who was unhappy in two schools but much happier, for a time at least in her last choice.  The 'best' is always best and a school which might seem to be less prestigious can be absolutely the best environment for your dc to thrive in.

 

Wishing you both luck 😊

[Mumofballetmaddaughter]

I can't really offer much in the way of advice as we were lucky that my daughter's 3 year journey through vocational school (a long time ago) was a good experience for her and us. From what you describe, it doesn't sound as if the school is a nurturing environment and you don't come across as a hysterical mum!  I would be very concerned about dancing in an unlit studio and the fear of retribution which isn't healthy for anyone, especially a young person. I would trust your instinct and try to encourage your child to think about the possibility of transferring to another school if possible. It is difficult however when dealing with a young adult who is determined to do it their way. I would just keep reiterating that it's ok to either transfer to a different school if possible or just walk away and try a different path. As I say it's not easy with a young adult as usually they know what a parent is saying is right but don't want to admit it. Wishing you both the best of luck.

[sarahw]

Crystaltips this sounds awful and please rely on your instincts.

 

Have you considered talking to another dance school? I've heard that KS Dance often take students transferring from elsewhere. 

 

So sorry you are in this situation. 

[Lisa O`Brien]

Crystaltips I too am so sorry to hear your child is in this situation. It has rightly been said many times on this Forum that both the child and their parents are paying customers. Paying for a service, for which standards ought to be maintained. The dance world is a short one and young people really do need the best possible training available to them in line with their abilities if they are going to stand a chance of making it.  If any vocational school is not providing this service to a high enough standard then it's time to take your custom and money, elsewhere. The very best of luck.

[Crystaltips]

Thanks everyone for your sympathy and support. Unfortunately this is one year into a 3 year course. And of course we have missed the boat for auditions for next year (location does not make it easy to audition elsewhere). The only consolation is that accommodation for next year will be different, and hopefully better (it can hardly be worse). My YDA is adamant that she wants to stay there in spite of everything and I think she will only change her mind on this point with a reasonable alternative on offer. Her greatest fear is of stopping dance altogether.  Also given the many great things we had heard about this school before deciding to go there (including from other posts on this forum), we are both a little wary of jumping ship without doing a lot of homework. KS Dance sounds interesting, does anyone know if they are flexible if not possible to attend on set audition date? if anyone has other suggestions (especially schools with a contemporary focus -her confidence in ballet has been severely compromised) that would also be welcome. Thanks again.

[ParentTaxi]

Would somewhere small be an option? Katie Morea, who used to be a tutor at Bird college and has a specific expertise in contemporary dance, has set up her own small dance college (Morea Performing Arts), and although it is very far from the 'big names' in terms of prestige, and graduate destinations as yet unknown, it does seem (co-located with a local dance school for a while) to be a very nurturing environment with a very personal touch for a small close-knit group of dancers.

[ParentTaxi]

http://www.moreaperformingarts.com/

[Billyelliott]

Is there any hope that your Yda might have a different ballet teacher next year as well as different accommodation?

Sometimes that can make a big difference - at least it did for us ....

I do feel for you so much and encourage you to call and ask to speak to other schools weather or not auditions have passed - there is no harm in asking!

[angel]

4 hours ago, angel said:

The 'best' ISN’T always best and a school which might seem to be less prestigious can be absolutely the best environment for your dc to thrive in.

 

Wishing you both luck 😊

 

[taxi4ballet]

So sorry to hear about these troubles. Speaking as a fairly recently departed - and now somewhat jaded and cynical - parent, I'm sorry to say that this situation is not all that uncommon, and you would find much the same occurring in vocational training everywhere. Some will sail tharough the whole thing and will have nothing but praise for the school, the training and the staff. Others, training there at exactly the same time and in the same class, will tell the opposite story.

 

The favourites (and occasionally also the moneybags overseas ones) get all the attention, all the extra coaching, all the support they could possibly need if they get injured or are suffering emotional difficulties; they are encouraged to enter competitions, they are handed principal roles in school shows, and are given opportunities galore.

 

The middling also-rans are pretty much ignored and are treated as cash cows, and corps fillers for performances. The ones who fall behind (for whatever reason) don't get the extra support and coaching they would benefit from, and really need and deserve. They are metaphorically thrown on the scrap heap and pretty much written off from then on.

 

There seems to be a culture among some staff of... well... not institutionalised bullying as such, but more of an attitude that the professional dance world is brutal, and these students need toughening up if they are going to succeed. It is a case of survival of the fittest, and it is the school's job to weed out the ones who are going to break, either physically or mentally. Some of the students are treated appallingly, yet they are afraid to rock the boat, to complain or make any kind of fuss, in case it jeopardises their position, either to continue training at the school, or that word will get out that they are 'difficult' and they will never get a job. The ballet world is a very small one. Nobody wants to stick their head above the parapet. They have too much to lose. And we are talking about young people under the age of 18 here, who may be living far away from home for the first time, and have no-one to turn to when they need help.

 

As parents we put our trust in these schools to do their best to nurture our young dancers, and we put our faith in the belief that the schools will take care of them and have due regard for their welfare and well-being.

 

I can't tell you how much it hurts to have that trust betrayed, and to have your young dancer's love of dance destroyed, and their aspirations and future career ruined. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by taxi4ballet

[Harwel]

19 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

So sorry to hear about these troubles. Speaking as a fairly recently departed - and now somewhat jaded and cynical - parent, I'm sorry to say that this situation is not all that uncommon, and you would find much the same occurring in vocational training everywhere. Some will sail tharough the whole thing and will have nothing but praise for the school, the training and the staff. Others, training there at exactly the same time and in the same class, will tell the opposite story.

 

The favourites (and occasionally also the moneybags overseas ones) get all the attention, all the extra coaching, all the support they could possibly need if they get injured or are suffering emotional difficulties; they are encouraged to enter competitions, they are handed principal roles in school shows, and are given opportunities galore.

 

The middling also-rans are pretty much ignored and are treated as cash cows, and corps fillers for performances. The ones who fall behind (for whatever reason) don't get the extra support and coaching they would benefit from, and really need and deserve. They are metaphorically thrown on the scrap heap and pretty much written off from then on.

 

There seems to be a culture among some staff of... well... not institutionalised bullying as such, but more of an attitude that the professional dance world is brutal, and these students need toughening up if they are going to succeed. It is a case of survival of the fittest, and it is the school's job to weed out the ones who are going to break, either physically or mentally. Some of the students are treated appallingly, yet they are afraid to rock the boat, to complain or make any kind of fuss, in case it jeopardises their position, either to continue training at the school, or that word will get out that they are 'difficult' and they will never get a job. The ballet world is a very small one. Nobody wants to stick their head above the parapet. They have too much to lose. And we are talking about young people under the age of 18 here, who may be living far away from home for the first time, and have no-one to turn to when they need help.

 

As parents we put our trust in these schools to do their best to nurture our young dancers, and we put our faith in the belief that the schools will take care of them and have due regard for their welfare and well-being.

 

I can't tell you how much it hurts to have that trust betrayed, and to have your young dancer's love of dance destroyed, and their aspirations and future career ruined. 

 

This is so,so true and it breaks my heart! 

[Dancing unicorn]

Couldn’t have said it better myself taxi!!! 

We’re still picking up the pieces 2 years on!  And we’re glad of our change of school. My advice would be change now and don’t wait. 

[FredF]

1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said:

So sorry to hear about these troubles. Speaking as a fairly recently departed - and now somewhat jaded and cynical - parent, I'm sorry to say that this situation is not all that uncommon, and you would find much the same occurring in vocational training everywhere. Some will sail tharough the whole thing and will have nothing but praise for the school, the training and the staff. Others, training there at exactly the same time and in the same class, will tell the opposite story.

 

The favourites (and occasionally also the moneybags overseas ones) get all the attention, all the extra coaching, all the support they could possibly need if they get injured or are suffering emotional difficulties; they are encouraged to enter competitions, they are handed principal roles in school shows, and are given opportunities galore.

 

The middling also-rans are pretty much ignored and are treated as cash cows, and corps fillers for performances. The ones who fall behind (for whatever reason) don't get the extra support and coaching they would benefit from, and really need and deserve. They are metaphorically thrown on the scrap heap and pretty much written off from then on.

 

There seems to be a culture among some staff of... well... not institutionalised bullying as such, but more of an attitude that the professional dance world is brutal, and these students need toughening up if they are going to succeed. It is a case of survival of the fittest, and it is the school's job to weed out the ones who are going to break, either physically or mentally. Some of the students are treated appallingly, yet they are afraid to rock the boat, to complain or make any kind of fuss, in case it jeopardises their position, either to continue training at the school, or that word will get out that they are 'difficult' and they will never get a job. The ballet world is a very small one. Nobody wants to stick their head above the parapet. They have too much to lose. And we are talking about young people under the age of 18 here, who may be living far away from home for the first time, and have no-one to turn to when they need help.

 

As parents we put our trust in these schools to do their best to nurture our young dancers, and we put our faith in the belief that the schools will take care of them and have due regard for their welfare and well-being.

 

I can't tell you how much it hurts to have that trust betrayed, and to have your young dancer's love of dance destroyed, and their aspirations and future career ruined. 

Totally agree with ballet4taxi, and I think these schools forget that, they are a school not a company, and need to teach and encourage these children. 

[LinMM]

Oh dear this is very sad ....I could tell you a story from Australia but would need to check with a friend first....but it does seem that a lot of vocational schools seem to focus on just a few students which I think is really dreadful but I don't have any first hand experience. I really do think now that some of them are well behind the times in good educational practice and even safe guarding issues.

I do hope it starts to turn out happier for your DD but if not I wouldn't give it more than another year to be honest.

Will you lose money if your DD should withdraw from the course before the three years are up? 

[Cara in NZ]

8 hours ago, angel said:

I can say though that my dd hasn't actually decided not to dance again..just not at the moment.  They put so much of themselves in from such a young age and it can become completely and utterly who they are, their whole identity.

 

My advice would always to make sure that dance isn't all that they do.  Encourage an interest in other activities so that there is a plan B in sight from day 1. 

 

I absolutely agree with angel. Because my DD was/is 'talented but not driven to want a dance career', we've always said to her 'Dance is something you do – it is not who you ARE'. The whole question of identity is so difficult because these kids grow up in a world dominated by dance from a young age, and just when they hit their teens and are sorting out 'who they are', is when the biggest pressures come on them to succeed, excel, etc.

The ballet world is unnatural – my DD wants to be an anaesthetist and I noted that she might only be finishing her training as her dance peers were finishing their ballet careers! There's not many spheres where you train from childhood, start your professional career at 19, and hope to last 10 or 15 years doing it. Such a huge investment for the dancers AND their families.

A beloved teacher of ours encouraged us to 'look at the bigger picture' back when DD was 11 and looking at auditioning for Scholars here. I didn't see her point entirely at the time (blinded by the heady possibilities LOL), but now I see she was trying to tell us to keep the rest of DD's life in perspective – that ballet might continue to be part of it, or might not. Either way nobody has failed or given up. Ballet is a tyrant, and many choose to walk away from its exhausting, beautiful, impossible standards. But our DC have all gained so much from their time with this art. Let's allow those DC who have had enough to walk away towards new possibilities that will be more rewarding for them.

Crystaltips, I wish you strength and courage. Do follow your instincts!

[kcoom75]

I too wish I’d had someone to tell me the brutal truth about vocational school.......My DD began as a young 16yr old full of passion for dance and although she finished three years with a degree, her passion and her confidence were destroyed.  I encouraged her to complete the course when she told me she never wanted to go back so that at least she would have a qualification but in hindsight it really wasn’t worth it.  She told me about many other girls who had various mental health problems from eating disorders to self harming. It seems all too common in the dance world when children are young and vulnerable and lacking in the pastoral support they badly need.

If I had my time again I would get her out before she loses her confidence completely. 😕

[Bluebird22]

Not even convinced it’s just the full time schools, I know an associate teacher who I think needs hauling over the coals for her complete disregard for the mental well being of the highly impressionable teens she teaches/belittles and demeans. It may be a tough business but sending someone out to face the world when you have shattered their confidence and self belief is not the way to go. 

[dancertaxi]

Reading these makes me feel so sad and partially regretting ever igniting my dd passion..

Does the danceworld not have an over riding authority body like other professions where standards have to be upheld? Maybe they should?  

I know I would have had enough to report my dd last teacher with and reading here I would certainly class some actions as abuse. 

I wish all dc who have these experiences the best of luck in whatever path they choose x

[stressedbeyondbelief]

16 hours ago, Crystaltips said:

Thanks everyone for your sympathy and support. Unfortunately this is one year into a 3 year course. And of course we have missed the boat for auditions for next year (location does not make it easy to audition elsewhere). The only consolation is that accommodation for next year will be different, and hopefully better (it can hardly be worse). My YDA is adamant that she wants to stay there in spite of everything and I think she will only change her mind on this point with a reasonable alternative on offer. Her greatest fear is of stopping dance altogether.  Also given the many great things we had heard about this school before deciding to go there (including from other posts on this forum), we are both a little wary of jumping ship without doing a lot of homework. KS Dance sounds interesting, does anyone know if they are flexible if not possible to attend on set audition date? if anyone has other suggestions (especially schools with a contemporary focus -her confidence in ballet has been severely compromised) that would also be welcome. Thanks again.

KS Dance are very flexible. I would encourage you to get in touch asap. You may still be lucky enough to beable to transfer for Sept. They also have a fab international summer school. Check it out  😊

[Crystaltips]

11 hours ago, LinMM said:

Oh dear this is very sad ....I could tell you a story from Australia but would need to check with a friend first....but it does seem that a lot of vocational schools seem to focus on just a few students which I think is really dreadful but I don't have any first hand experience. I really do think now that some of them are well behind the times in good educational practice and even safe guarding issues.

I do hope it starts to turn out happier for your DD but if not I wouldn't give it more than another year to be honest.

Will you lose money if your DD should withdraw from the course before the three years are up? 

I suspect the answer to your last question would be yes. They offered a hefty discount for payment upfront and although I was assured we would get a refund if things didn't work out, in practice I'm not sure how the small print would play out.

The really sad part is that I don't think the school even realise the impact of their behaviour. We know of someone else who chose to leave early, and who was greeted with astonishment that she would prefer another school.

 

 

[Pepperpot]

3 hours ago, stressedbeyondbelief said:

KS Dance are very flexible. I would encourage you to get in touch asap. You may still be lucky enough to beable to transfer for Sept. They also have a fab international summer school. Check it out  😊

I don’t know what your financial situation is Crystaltips, but just so you are aware before persuing KS any further, there is no funding available, so you would have to self-fund. They offer some scholarships and bursaries I think, but not particularly substantial ones....Just a thought if you currently access a DADa or student finance/loans...x

[Karen]

So sorry to hear your story. It struck me as I read it, that sometimes our dancing children/young adults don’t want parents to intervene, but actually it can make quite a difference if we do. If your instincts are to present a well measured case about unfair treatment and inappropriate support, I would be tempted to go with them. Sometimes others have no idea how it is from someone else’s perspective and a short, sharp reminder can make a significant difference. I do hope that your yda gets resolution and if you do decide to change establishment, I think it could be worth ringing around to discuss options, as there is still lots of place shuffling and sorting going on. Best wishes. 

[angel]

19 hours ago, Cara in NZ said:

I absolutely agree with angel. Because my DD was/is 'talented but not driven to want a dance career', we've always said to her 'Dance is something you do – it is not who you ARE'. The whole question of identity is so difficult because these kids grow up in a world dominated by dance from a young age, and just when they hit their teens and are sorting out 'who they are', is when the biggest pressures come on them to succeed, excel, etc.

The ballet world is unnatural – my DD wants to be an anaesthetist and I noted that she might only be finishing her training as her dance peers were finishing their ballet careers! There's not many spheres where you train from childhood, start your professional career at 19, and hope to last 10 or 15 years doing it. Such a huge investment for the dancers AND their families.

A beloved teacher of ours encouraged us to 'look at the bigger picture' back when DD was 11 and looking at auditioning for Scholars here. I didn't see her point entirely at the time (blinded by the heady possibilities LOL), but now I see she was trying to tell us to keep the rest of DD's life in perspective – that ballet might continue to be part of it, or might not. Either way nobody has failed or given up. Ballet is a tyrant, and many choose to walk away from its exhausting, beautiful, impossible standards. But our DC have all gained so much from their time with this art. Let's allow those DC who have had enough to walk away towards new possibilities that will be more rewarding for them.

This is So beautifully written Cara 😊

[Legseleven]

That is so true, Karen. As you say, children of whatever age often desperately don’t want their parents to intervene and state the facts - but unless someone does so, how will matters ever change? 

[angel]

7 minutes ago, Legseleven said:

That is so true, Karen. As you say, children of whatever age often desperately don’t want their parents to intervene and state the facts - but unless someone does so, how will matters ever change? 

I don’t think anything will change. There are too many other dc who will take their place in a heartbeat. 

 

Also, something I have found is that school directors will bend over backwards for their personal favourite dc and not for those that aren’t. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by angel
Grammar

[Millie3]

36 minutes ago, Legseleven said:

That is so true, Karen. As you say, children of whatever age often desperately don’t want their parents to intervene and state the facts - but unless someone does so, how will matters ever change? 

Indeed. Do you upset the apple cart whilst your offspring are studying there and perhaps make your dd/ds  life even more difficult. Or once they have left? But then they need a reference for further study.  Therefore  scuppering their future plans. Or a few years later?? It’s so hard. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Millie3

[meadowblythe]

I was very much in the "don't say anything, things are bad enough .." camp with DS.  With musical DD I've been more vocal.  Not sure it made a huge amount of difference regarding the staff BUT it has made my daughter more confident in asserting and negotiating situations regarding opportunities for herself.  

 

If I had my time again I would risk upsetting the apple cart.

[dancertaxi]

Could you make an anonymous complaint? 

Either via letter with response in writing required to a relatives address? Or create an email address in a pseudonym ( as far as any legalities are concerned, I am sure you could justify your anonymity)  

 

I m of the view that there are probably other parents of dya there suffering in silence and at the end of the day, this is how abusive or inappropriate practice continues and becomes socially acceptable within the school. 

 

Are they regulated/inspected or draw funding from anywhere - this could be a route to raise concerns. Favourite or not they are accountable for the standard of education delivered. 

[Anon2]

I tried and failed to find a contact at Trinity to escalate concerns regarding the school’s culture. 

 

During lower school my dd was one of those choosen to speak to school inspectors, the women she spoke to dismissed her concerns, telling her she was lucky to be at such a nice school. The online questionnaires you receive prior to an inspection visit are pointless as no place for comments either good or bad. 

 

Back to the original post - follow your instincts, you know something isn’t right. Too many of us on here were blinkered into thinking ‘next year will be better’ and let the dc carry on.