Richard LH Posted April 12, 2018 Author Share Posted April 12, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Xandra Newman said: It is very rare that a dancer is suited to all and just about any role in the company repertoire. Is that right? From what I have seen (admittedly as a relative newcomer) all the RB principals seem to succesfully take on every sort of role. 3 hours ago, Xandra Newman said: There may also be reasons unknown to us why Hayward is not cast in classical tutu roles. But she has been, and still is. Out of interest (again, as a relative newcomer, still learning about ballet styles), is there such a clear distinction in what makes a "classical" role? Surely it is not just whether the ballerinas wear tutus. If so, wouldn't you have to rule out Giselle? Edited April 12, 2018 by Richard LH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 36 minutes ago, Richard LH said: Is that right? From what I have seen (admittedly as a relative newcomer) all the RB principals seem to succesfully take on every sort of role. But she has been, and still is. Out of interest (again, as a relative newcomer, still learning about ballet styles), is there such a clear distinction in what makes a "classical" role? Surely it is not just whether the ballerinas wear tutus. If so, wouldn't you have to rule out Giselle? I'm no expert but I think of "classical" as the 19th Century Russian ballets. Giselle and the Bournonville ballets I would class as romantic. I'm never quite sure where Coppelia fits in. Not every dancer is suited to every role even though they may have the technique to dance it. Watching a number of ballets with a number of casts over a number of years has given me this remarkable insight! What I have noticed, for myself, is that if I am particularly keen on a dancer I can't always see that they aren't suited to a particular role and I have enjoyed their performance because it is them. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 12 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said: What I have noticed, for myself, is that if I am particularly keen on a dancer I can't always see that they aren't suited to a particular role and I have enjoyed their performance because it is them. Ha! Guilty too! :-) 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saodan Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Richard LH said: From what I have seen (admittedly as a relative newcomer) all the RB principals seem to succesfully take on every sort of role. I am also a relative newcomer so stand to be corrected, but going down the current list of (more experienced) principles: Bonelli hasn’t done Colas and didn’t get Rudolf until he was 38ish; Cuthbertson hasn’t done Lise, Kitri, or Tatiana; Lamb hasn’t done Lise; Morera hasn’t done Juliet, Kitri, or Odette/Odile, and performed Vetsera for the first time at 39ish; Nunez hasn’t done Vetsera; Soares hasn’t done Des Grieux, or Colas; and I don’t think Watson has danced any of the classical roles. It seems that even being a principle doesn’t guarantee a dancer will get all the ‘big’ roles. Considering that Hayward, Naghdi and other young dancers have already danced roles that more ‘senior’ principles have not, I guess we should be grateful for what they are given even if we would cast them in everything right now! I have no doubt that in time they will dance most, if not all, of the roles they want. Edited April 12, 2018 by Saodan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted April 12, 2018 Author Share Posted April 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Jan McNulty said: if I am particularly keen on a dancer I can't always see that they aren't suited to a particular role and I have enjoyed their performance because it is them. I see your point, Jan, but if you enjoy their performance, and don't see it as inappropriate for the role, then at least in your eyes, and probably those of others, they must be suited to that role! After all, whether a dancer is considered suited to a particular role can only be a matter of opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuthE Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, Saodan said: Bonelli hasn’t done Colas and didn’t get Rudolf until he was 38ish; Cuthbertson hasn’t done Lise, Kitri, or Tatiana; Lamb hasn’t done Lise; Morera hasn’t done Juliet, Kitri, or Odette/Odile, and performed Vetsera for the first time at 39ish; Nunez hasn’t done Vetsera; Soares hasn’t done Des Grieux, or Colas; and I don’t think Watson has danced any of the classical roles. Although in at least one of the above cases, it’s not that they haven’t been cast in those roles. Lauren Cuthbertson should have danced Tatyana, but was injured at the time, replaced by Itziar Mendizabal who I wouldn’t ever have got to see dance the role otherwise. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Watson has danced Siegfried and Albrecht.....I've seen him as both! It was a long time ago, though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mallinson Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 18 minutes ago, Saodan said: Lamb hasn’t done Lise Four shows on consecutive days with Carlos Acosta when she was with Boston Ballet and at the ROH with Martin Harvey in 2006. Not since. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 24 minutes ago, Saodan said: Bonelli hasn’t done Colas and didn’t get Rudolf until he was 38ish; Cuthbertson hasn’t done Lise, Kitri, or Tatiana; Lamb hasn’t done Lise; Morera hasn’t done Juliet, Kitri, or Odette/Odile, and performed Vetsera for the first time at 39ish; Nunez hasn’t done Vetsera; Soares hasn’t done Des Grieux, or Colas; and I don’t think Watson has danced any of the classical roles. The term used these days is employ, some dancers aren't considered suitable for certain roles/ There is also a possibility that some dancers actually refuse certain roles, I've certainly hears of such cases. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 54 minutes ago, Sim said: Watson has danced Siegfried and Albrecht.....I've seen him as both! It was a long time ago, though. Very clever of you, Sim - but wishful thinking on the Siegfried front, I'm afraid! (He did do the Swan pdd from Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake, though!) 1 hour ago, Saodan said: Bonelli hasn’t done Colas But he's a Prince, dahling! (to be said in as luvvie-ish a voice as possible ) Quote Cuthbertson hasn’t done Lise, Kitri, or Tatiana; The latter only due to injury (or was it illness?) Quote Lamb hasn’t done Lise She did once, but abandoned the role after her foot injury - I always assumed there was too much jumping, and she didn't want to take the risk. Quote Morera hasn’t done Juliet, Kitri, or Odette/Odile, She's done Kitri before now - a long time ago, not in the Acosta production. Quote Soares hasn’t done Des Grieux, or Colas He's danced Colas, but again, not recently. 2007-ish may have been the last time. Watson hasn't danced Albrecht since Leanne Benjamin retired. MAB's right: I'd forgotten (tried to forget? ) that Don Q was coming back. Will there be any vacancies, though? I'm not sure how many performances there will be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saodan Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 (edited) I stand corrected already! Thank you all for your knowledge, this is why this forum is so useful. I would go back and correct the errors if I could. It is true that in some cases injury is the culprit. I think the point stands though: not everyone is destined to dance everything, for one reason or another. I can answer with more accuracy (hopefully) on this year's Don Q: One less performance than last time (17 rather than 18) and we are down two Kitri's (Marquez and Salenko) and two Basilios (Golding and Acosta) with question marks over whether Soares will dance it. Vacancies there one would think... Hayward, Corrales, Naghdi, Sambé, Magri... Edited April 12, 2018 by Saodan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyTurk Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 12 minutes ago, Saodan said: I stand corrected already! Thank you all for your knowledge, this is why this forum is so useful. I would go back and correct the errors if I could. It is true that in some cases injury is the culprit. I think the point stands though: not everyone is destined to dance everything, for one reason or another. I can answer with more accuracy (hopefully) on this year's Don Q: One less performance than last time (17 rather than 18) and we are down two Kitri's (Marquez and Salenko) and two Basilios (Golding and Acosta) with question marks over whether Soares will dance it. Vacancies there one would think... Hayward, Corrales, Naghdi, Sambé, Magri... I was thinking the same. I feel like there will be quite a few debuts. Definitely Corrales, and given how he is paired with Osipova in Bayadere, it makes sense he would be paired with her again. I imagine Ball and Sambe will debut, as well. I'm hoping Magri will get a chance. She would make a perfect Kitri. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Hmmm I was so sure I could remember Ed Watson in Siegfried's blue costume, but I guess not!! As you say Alison, probably more a case of wishful thinking!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletfanp Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Saodan said: I can answer with more accuracy (hopefully) on this year's Don Q: One less performance than last time (17 rather than 18) and we are down two Kitri's (Marquez and Salenko) and two Basilios (Golding and Acosta) with question marks over whether Soares will dance it. Vacancies there one would think... Hayward, Corrales, Naghdi, Sambé, Magri... Muntagirov danced Basilio last time (and very well too!). Takada also danced Kitri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Janet - I see Coppelia as a soubrette role, along with Lise in Fille. Two wonderful ballets but surely 'classical'? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletfanp Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Balletfanp said: Muntagirov danced Basilio last time (and very well too!). Takada also danced Kitri. Sorry - just reread your original post, Saodan, and realised I misread it - please ignore! ☺ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, Jan McNulty said: I think of "classical" as the 19th Century Russian ballets Does that mean the main (popular) "Classical" repertoire only comprises Don Q, La B, possibly Coppelia and the three Tchaikovsky's ? Edited April 13, 2018 by Richard LH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Paquita, Raymonda.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyTurk Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) When was the last time the ROH staged Paquita? (If ever?) Edited April 13, 2018 by HappyTurk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLOSS Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) There still seems to be an unwritten rule that in order to be considered worthy of promotion to the rank of company principal dancers have to have passed the technical test of successfully dancing leading roles in more than one of the five ballets which De Valois designated the "classics", Coppelia , Giselle, Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty , Sugar Plum Fairy and Prince in Nutcracker. As the acquisition and performance of these works was intended to guarantee and maintain the high artistic and technical standards of company members it seems not unreasonable to treat them as test pieces even today. The intention of the company's original management team was to establish a creative company rather than a museum one. The requirement that dancers can master the great works of the past seems to be a guarantee that no one would be promoted to principal who was only exceptionally good at dancing the roles created on them. Using the great works of the past as a means of assessing whether or not a dancer has the sort of technique, artistry and musicality which will withstand close scrutiny in exposed roles seems pretty certain to guarantee that no one who dances untidily and can only emote and sprawl will become a company principal. As the requirement seems to call for a dancer to maintain consistently high standards it seems a trifle more civilised than the POB's promotion concourse. The leading roles in these ballet are either being danced well or they are not . They are all roles which can not be fudged by acting, The same can be said of roles like Lise and Colas which while they are demi-character in nature are exceptionally exposed and technically demanding. Just because the choreography seems so simple and easy it does not mean it is easy to perform.It needs to be remembered that when Fille was premiered there were serious doubts expressed about its viability as a repertory piece in the absence of the original cast. Don Q has never been in the repertory long enough to be one of the test ballets. After a short while management tends to recognise that the ballet does not really suit the company and it prevents other more worthy ballets being performed. This is the third production the company has had. The previous two were very short lived. The Covent Garden Company has never had Paquita as part of its repertory. Its music like that of Don Q is not of sufficiently good quality to have satisfied thecompany's first artistic director or its first music director while its choreography is very much "after Petipa". Perhaps so far after him that Petipa would be hard pressed to recognise what is generally described as Paquita as his work at all. Edited April 13, 2018 by FLOSS 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Well, that "unwritten rule" seems not to have applied in quite a few cases since I've been RB-watching. I'd give an exact number, only adding Giselle and Coppelia to the mix may skew things somewhat, and I can't remember whether certain ballerinas danced those roles before or after their promotion. "Successfully" is of course a subjective judgement. "To the standard expected of a principal" might be a little less so, but might arguably exclude a few dancers. My "unwritten rule" still remains: 2 out of the 4 major strands of the RB repertoire - Ashton, MacMillan, "Classical" and neoclassical/contemporary. That covers everyone I know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) Very interesting, thanks Floss. Applying this "unwritten rule" to the earlier discussion (and since Coppelia has not been produced by the RB during her time there as a leading artist), Hayward has already danced (with much acclaim) 3 of these 4 "classic" leading roles. I would be very surprised if she is not cast as the lead in the 4th, Swan Lake, when it is repeated, which could be towards the end of next year, or later in 2019/20. I can't imagine any of the RB hierarchy regarding Hayward, out of all the principals, as somehow unsuited to "classic" roles, as one or two posters seem to imply. See here for photo credits. Edited April 14, 2018 by John Mallinson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 A couple of things, Edward Watson doesn't seem to fit your criteria for being a principal. Don Q. requires a type of dancer the RB hasn't had in sufficient quantities to make it viable as a repertory work in the past, things are changing now and hopefully the ballet will stay, though far from being a personal favourite it is very much an audience pleaser and the middle act is gorgeous. Paquita requires a line up of top class ballerinas for it to work, again the RB hasn't in the past had the resources for it. Virtually all the choreography is Petipa, though nor necessarily from Paquita. I find the music both tuneful and memorable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Dancer Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 On 12/04/2018 at 19:18, Xandra Newman said: Correct, she danced one performance as Aurora and it is only normal to have at least danced one full length classical tutu role when one has become a principal don't you think? She dance done performance as Aurora very well even though she was ill and had to miss her second scheduled performance due to illness. I have been around ballet long enough to know what some people mean about one dancer being very classical but I find that often the term is misused and overused and gets my back up and I shall stop here and not go on with the rest of what I think.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Dancer Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 On 12/04/2018 at 19:31, Xandra Newman said: She's a dancer I like a lot too but wasn't she only just promoted to soloist last season? I think it would be a tat too fast for her (knowing there is also Magri and Heap and last but not least the beautiful Fumi Kaneko who's been a soloist for several years now). Fumi has also been injured for two long spells if I am not mistaken so this is perhaps why she's been at soloist level for so long... she is a beautiful dancer and I doubt that she is being overlooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mallinson Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Richard LH those photos shouldn't be posted without a credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane S Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 hour ago, MAB said: A couple of things, Edward Watson doesn't seem to fit your criteria for being a principal. I seem to remember there was a huge argument on ballet.co when he was promoted, along the lines of how could a classical company have a principal who didn't do classical? I think he's proved his worth... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 His promotion followed fairly closely on the heels of Wildor and Galeazzi, neither of whom had done the "Classical" roles, although I'm not sure whether they'd danced Swanilda prior to being a principal. Wildor might have done Giselle? I'm not sure of my dates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyTurk Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) All classical roles are not the same. Even if one excels as Aurora (and fits the role), they may not be suited for Swan Lake or La Bayadere, for instance. I find that to be the case for Hayward. But I think all of the RB's principal dancers are beautiful (including Hayward!). They each have something to offer. * Just in case my comments get misconstrued, I only mentioned Hayward because others brought her up. My intentions were not to disparage her or question her abilities, etc. Edited April 13, 2018 by HappyTurk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saodan Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Richard LH said: I can't imagine any of the RB hierarchy regarding Hayward, out of all the principals, as somehow unsuited to "classic" roles, as one or two posters seem to imply. Just to be clear, I didn’t mean to imply that Hayward is unsuited to classical roles. The phrase I used was ‘not favoured’. I was simply observing that, where there are limited casts and a choice has to be made, other dancers seem to have been favoured for debuts in certain major Classical roles: Naghdi for Swan Lake; Naghdi and Takada, among others, for La Bayadere. On the other hand, Hayward was favoured for a debut as Lise, she got her Manon debut ahead of Takada, and Hayward and Naghdi have danced Juliet whereas Takada has not. All three have of course danced Giselle, Sleeping Beauty, and Nutcracker. Within the context of a discussion of casting, I think it is interesting to note these differences and consider what past casting decisions may suggest for the future. This is not a commentary on the relative ability of the dancers. I think they are all extraordinary, would like to see them cast broadly, and am sure they will be in time. Personally, I was hoping to see Hayward in Swan Lake, Naghdi in Mayerling, a Naghdi/Corrales/Hayward Bayadere, and want to see Hayward and Naghdi as Kitri and Takada as Juliet. Edited April 13, 2018 by Saodan 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyTurk Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) On a brighter note: Was just looking at videos of Vadim as Solor, and came across this gem of Natalia as Gamzatti. Wow. Can't wait to see them together in this, plus Nunez. (*Her solo is at 5:44). Edited April 13, 2018 by HappyTurk 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Who are Vadim and Natalia? Not all of us are RB regulars? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyTurk Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Just now, Jan McNulty said: Who are Vadim and Natalia? Not all of us are RB regulars? Sorry! Vadim Muntagirov and Natalia Osipova. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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