RAD Discovering Repertoire classes

[Cara in NZ]

On 2/6/2018 at 08:51, Nicola H said:

i suspect those doing  it en pointe will be those who really  really  really want to  and VGE students   wanting extra  NQF3 and 4  points 

 

We don't get any educational credits for passing RAD exams in New Zealand, although our exam certificates still mention the 'European Qualifications Framework', whatever that is. I think it's just seen as an extra challenge, and kids love learning variations. But if there's no extra credit for doing it en pointe, it suggests only the super-keen vocational kids would choose to. I'm just not sure DD's teacher will give her a choice. I guess it may depend on who else is enrolled – it doesn't seem ideal to have some of the class en pointe and some on flat, although I know the exercises are the same.

[Mummy twinkle toes]

I do think there should be some acknowledgment for doing it on pointe as the degree of difficulty is increased. 😼

[Viv]

I might be a bit of a weirdo, but I actually love pointe...precisely because it's more of a challenge! I'm not very good at it and I severely lack in confidence, and that's precisely why I would want to learn this variation en pointe. I can never get better if I don't challenge myself and I want to develop both my pointe skills and also my performance quality. I have neither the desire, nor the aptitude, to make dancing of ANY kind a career, but I do enjoy the challenge that variations en pointe present. So it's not just serious, vocationally minded students who would want to do this...

I don't really feel the need to categorise the types of people who will want to 'discover repertoire', particularly en pointe. Surely every person will have their own reasons, the same as they have for dancing in the first place. I also don't really see the point in giving bonus marks for completing it en pointe. I do the syllabus because it's the best thing I've found to make me a better dancer, the marks are just a byproduct of that. The process of learning en pointe is reward enough for me, I don't see the need to incentivise it. If it's not something a student wants to do, of their own accord, learning for learning's sake, then why on earth should they bother? Do what makes you happy

Edited February 7, 2018 by Viv

[Nicola H]

5 hours ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

I do think there should be some acknowledgment for doing it on pointe as the degree of difficulty is increased. 😼

 

 not sure what it says in the specification,  but  what do the VGE   certificates state    as female / pointe  vs  male / none pointe ?

even the entire of DR  is   enrichment  / recreational award  what is gained  other than petty   bragging rights ...

 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

Men do extra allegro to gain marks. 

Women get 10 designated marks for pointe technique If to Advanced 1. 20 marks for advanced 2

Edited February 7, 2018 by Mummy twinkle toes
More info

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, Nicola H said:

 

 not sure what it says in the specification,  but  what do the VGE   certificates state    as female / pointe  vs  male / none pointe ?

even the entire of DR  is   enrichment  / recreational award  what is gained  other than petty   bragging rights ...

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "petty bragging rights"?

 

As Mummy twinkle toes says, in the RAD Vocational Grades, there are ten points out of one hundred available for both male and female candidates; pointework for female or additional allegro for male.  

 

Page 150 or thereabouts of the specification lists the mark scheme for Advanced exams:  https://www.rad.org.uk/documents/exam-docs/RAD_Specification_2018_12_Dec_2017_ex.pdf#page91

 

[Nicola H]

pages 157 and 158 of the  RAD specification  gives   marking information for the DR  programme,  no marks  available or deducted for  the 'female' variations to be performed en pointe or  not 

[Viv]

3 hours ago, Nicola H said:

even the entire of DR  is   enrichment  / recreational award  what is gained  other than petty   bragging rights ...

 

 

What is gained? Besides the ability to maintain secure technique while giving yourself purely over to the performance side? Besides gaining an understanding of ballet history and the way movement has developed through certain time periods? Besides the ability to challenge yourself to do something knew and different from standard technique classes? Besides the joy of walking into a theatre and watching someone perform on stage, and excel at, the same variation you've been pushing yourself to learn? Besides gaining slightly more of an understanding of the process of learning classical works and not just exercises? No you're right, I'm doing this for the petty bragging rights...

 

As far as male and female pointe specifications, as this is an entirely flexible syllabus and it merely says 'pointe is optional', I wonder if that equally applies to male candidates, or if they can only do the male variation. I would actually hope that there would be a lot more freedom to choose your variation in this syllabus, even if it's just in training and not in examining the different form. Both men and women can gain a lot from breaking the traditional roles of ballet, if not in their regular syllabus work then hopefully here!

Edited February 7, 2018 by Viv

[Kate_N]

I hear you, Viv!  Wonderful post there about the joys of serious study as an adult - I wish you all the strength to your ankles you wish for yourself 

[Anna C]

10 hours ago, Nicola H said:

pages 157 and 158 of the  RAD specification  gives   marking information for the DR  programme,  no marks  available or deducted for  the 'female' variations to be performed en pointe or  not 

 

Yes, I know.  I was answering your question about Vocational exams. 

[sophie_rebecca]

20 hours ago, Viv said:

As far as male and female pointe specifications, as this is an entirely flexible syllabus and it merely says 'pointe is optional', I wonder if that equally applies to male candidates, or if they can only do the male variation. I would actually hope that there would be a lot more freedom to choose your variation in this syllabus, even if it's just in training and not in examining the different form. Both men and women can gain a lot from breaking the traditional roles of ballet, if not in their regular syllabus work then hopefully here!

 

In 2015 the RAD updated their policy, in short you can do any exam you want, if you're female & want to do the male variations you can, if you're male & want to do pointe you can & any combination in between the exams are all about the dance / dancer which I think is fab.

[balletgremlin]

@sophie_rebecca That flexibility sounds absolutely amazing - do you have a link to the policy? For grade 8, I much prefer the boys' waltz and at my dance school there are multiple other grades with girls who want to do boys dances. My teacher was talking about petitioning/asking nicely/just putting us in for the dance we want to do but if it's already possible, that'd be great. (I know we've had male students do female exercises purely because the teacher didn't realise they were different until too close to the exam).

 

I wonder if you did a vocational grade not on pointe whether you'd be allowed to take the following level on pointe? I have a love/hate relationship with pointe - it makes me feel like a ballerina but it hurts and it's so difficult it sometimes feels like I'm learning to walk again & basic things become tricky.

 

Getting back on topic, while I think it might be fun to attempt some of the exercises in this new syllabus on pointe just to see if I can, I'm definitely looking forward to being pushed by harder choreography than what the graded exams can offer but not be held back by my weak pointe.

Edited February 8, 2018 by balletgremlin

[Nicola H]

38 minutes ago, balletgremlin said:

@sophie_rebecca That flexibility sounds absolutely amazing - do you have a link to the policy? For grade 8, I much prefer the boys' waltz and at my dance school there are multiple other grades with girls who want to do boys dances. My teacher was talking about petitioning/asking nicely/just putting us in for the dance we want to do but if it's already possible, that'd be great. (I know we've had male students do female exercises purely because the teacher didn't realise they were different until too close to the exam).

 

I wonder if you did a vocational grade not on pointe whether you'd be allowed to take the following level on pointe? I have a love/hate relationship with pointe - it makes me feel like a ballerina but it hurts and it's so difficult it sometimes feels like I'm learning to walk again & basic things become tricky.

 

Getting back on topic, while I think it might be fun to attempt some of the exercises in this new syllabus on pointe just to see if I can, I'm definitely looking forward to being pushed by harder choreography than what the graded exams can offer but not be held back by my weak pointe.

AFAIK based on the discussions on the topic here and elsewhere , if you wanted to be assessed  for any RAD grade  or VGE  'as a boy' or 'as a girl ' all you need to do is ensure  that the examiner ( and  pianist ) are aware of it .  remember also that uniform is not compulsory and there is no requirement for  'congruent gender  expression '  ...  unsure as to the state of play with  the other awarding bodies but i suspect that  the CDET  member  bodies would likely  follow  what RAD has done   in the light  of  equality  and diversity good practice  and the risk that  something could be  proven to be  Discrimination by Association or Discrimination by Perception 

some notes from  ACAS  on  discrimination by association and discrimination by perception http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5362 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Nicola H

[balletgremlin]

Thanks @Nicola H - I vaguely remember my teacher saying I could enter 'as a boy' but we were unaware of the mix & match option Sophie mentioned.

 

Could I do the boy's waltz and then the girl's free movement in grade 8? Or the pointe work and then a male variation in advanced foundation?

 

I think the more options open to everyone can only benefit us and hopefully encourage more people to continue dancing when they'd otherwise give up because they're told they have to do something when maybe they quite fancy something else.

[Nicola H]

4 minutes ago, balletgremlin said:

Thanks @Nicola H - I vaguely remember my teacher saying I could enter 'as a boy' but we were unaware of the mix & match option Sophie mentioned.

 

Could I do the boy's waltz and then the girl's free movement in grade 8? Or the pointe work and then a male variation in advanced foundation?

 

I think the more options open to everyone can only benefit us and hopefully encourage more people to continue dancing when they'd otherwise give up because they're told they have to do something when maybe they quite fancy something else.

you;d need to ask an examiner or RAD  HQ   exactly how much choice there is 

[taxi4ballet]

As far as I'm aware from having read the specification, you choose to be examined in either the male or female syllabus, whichever you prefer. I don't believe you can chop and change between syllabi during the examination itself.

 

 

 

[Anna C]

8 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

As far as I'm aware from having read the specification, you choose to be examined in either the male or female syllabus, whichever you prefer. I don't believe you can chop and change between syllabi during the examination itself.

 

 

 

 

That could make difficulties for the examiner - for example, if four students of the same gender (e.g. female) turn up for Advanced 1 or 2 but one chooses to do the male variation, or the male grand allegro after the other three have been examined on the female variation and pointework. It would make the exam longer, for one thing, and involve chopping and changing for the pianist.   Much easier for everyone concerned if they know in advance whether they are taking/examining the male syllabus or the female syllabus? 

[sophie_rebecca]

9 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

As far as I'm aware from having read the specification, you choose to be examined in either the male or female syllabus, whichever you prefer. I don't believe you can chop and change between syllabi during the examination itself.

 

 

 

 

This,

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear, you can do either the male or the female exams regardless of your gender identity, you can't pick bits from the male & female from the same exam but you could do for example grade 7 girls & grade 8 boys, or both boys & girls grade 7 hope that's clearer.

 

 

[sophie_rebecca]

10 hours ago, balletgremlin said:

Thanks @Nicola H - I vaguely remember my teacher saying I could enter 'as a boy' but we were unaware of the mix & match option Sophie mentioned.

 

 

For @balletgremlin @Nicola H & anyone else interested who doesn't want to go through pages & pages of RAD documents 

 

"3.1.5 Gender. According to the heritage of the art form, the requirements for males and females in ballet are different. Candidates may feel unable to enter for a particular unit or qualification if it is designed for a specific gender."

 

"3.2.5 Gender. It is the policy of the Examinations Board to ensure that equal opportunities are accorded to males and females, in the context of the heritage of ballet. Candidates, including transgender candidates, may enter for their preferred syllabus according to the gender with which they choose to identify in relation to dance."

 

This is from the equality & diversity document https://www.rad.org.uk/documents/exam-docs/20170301equalitydiversityandinclusionpolicy.pdf 

 

For those that don't know my backstory I didn't think I'd be able to take exams due to being transgender, in 2015 my teacher who's an RAD board member asked what the policy was, there wasn't one so they added an open policy, since then I took my exam & I know of at least 4 other transgender students who've also taken their exams & several girls who've done the boys exams, I'm not aware of any boys choosing the girls variation as yet but there was a class of 4 men who took grade 8 female exam as the teacher hadn't realised she'd taught them the wrong one  (they all passed & we're apparently fabulous) 

[youngatheart]

Personally I would prefer to have the "non-binary" option of having only one qualification at each level, with anyone being able to choose any combination of exercises/variations they choose - but I suspect we're a long way from that. The fact is that, as the RAD say, it's the heritage of classical ballet to have male & female roles - although of course these could actually be played/danced by anyone regardless of gender - e.g. "Les Trocs". There is also the argument that teachers of vocational level ballet would benefit from having to dance as both genders in order to gain a full understanding of the work.

 

Re the pointe vs non-pointe options in Discovering Repertoire - surely the best solution would be to have a "pointe endorsement" on the certificate - e.g. "Level 2 Unit 2 (Pointe) as opposed to just "Level 2 Unit 2" for those not dancing on pointe. (You should also be able to take both versions, i.e. do the exam on flat if you are a level 2 student not en pointe or just starting pointe, and then go back to retake it on pointe years later, maybe when you are in Advanced 1). The male units should have been designated "Variation 3" and "Variation 4" not "Variation 1/2 Male".

 

There could also be the option of adding more units at each level later on if the programme proves popular.

 

I have only seen the Level 2 material so far, but I was very pleased to see that it was complementary to the existing work, with different steps that are not in the main syllabus. Apart from the very simple barre, it was more advanced than I was expecting for level 2 though - I would not think it suitable for someone who had only achieved at Grades 2-3 - rather for someone working towards Grade 5/IF level already (or the equivalent standard).

 

[balletgremlin]

21 minutes ago, youngatheart said:

Apart from the very simple barre, it was more advanced than I was expecting for level 2 though - I would not think it suitable for someone who had only achieved at Grades 2-3 - rather for someone working towards Grade 5/IF level already (or the equivalent standard).

 

As far as I'm aware level 2 is supposed to be Grade 5/IF, level 3 is intermediate/AF/grades 6-8 and level 4 is Advanced 1 & 2 level. My teacher's taken a look at level 4 and is considering starting us with level 3 instead as it's trickier than she thought.

[Mummy twinkle toes]

42 minutes ago, youngatheart said:

Personally I would prefer to have the "non-binary" option of having only one qualification at each level, with anyone being able to choose any combination of exercises/variations they choose - but I suspect we're a long way from that. The fact is that, as the RAD say, it's the heritage of classical ballet to have male & female roles - although of course these could actually be played/danced by anyone regardless of gender - e.g. "Les Trocs". There is also the argument that teachers of vocational level ballet would benefit from having to dance as both genders in order to gain a full understanding of the work.

 

Re the pointe vs non-pointe options in Discovering Repertoire - surely the best solution would be to have a "pointe endorsement" on the certificate - e.g. "Level 2 Unit 2 (Pointe) as opposed to just "Level 2 Unit 2" for those not dancing on pointe. (You should also be able to take both versions, i.e. do the exam on flat if you are a level 2 student not en pointe or just starting pointe, and then go back to retake it on pointe years later, maybe when you are in Advanced 1). The male units should have been designated "Variation 3" and "Variation 4" not "Variation 1/2 Male".

 

There could also be the option of adding more units at each level later on if the programme proves popular.

 

I have only seen the Level 2 material so far, but I was very pleased to see that it was complementary to the existing work, with different steps that are not in the main syllabus. Apart from the very simple barre, it was more advanced than I was expecting for level 2 though - I would not think it suitable for someone who had only achieved at Grades 2-3 - rather for someone working towards Grade 5/IF level already (or the equivalent standard).

 

 

I do like the idea of stating pointe on the certificate. Not sure how RAD will recognise though.

[Anna C]

44 minutes ago, balletgremlin said:

 

As far as I'm aware level 2 is supposed to be Grade 5/IF, level 3 is intermediate/AF/grades 6-8 and level 4 is Advanced 1 & 2 level. My teacher's taken a look at level 4 and is considering starting us with level 3 instead as it's trickier than she thought.

 

That's right.  Given the difficulty of the pointework in the current Advanced 2 syllabus, I'd be surprised if those physically able to dance en pointe *don't* do the Level 4 DR exam en pointe - that would be a missed opportunity to practice advanced pointework.  

[Anna C]

29 minutes ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

 

I do like the idea of stating pointe on the certificate. Not sure how RAD will recognise though.

 

All they'd have to do is add "performed en pointe" to the Level/Variation on the certificate.  Would be a nice touch. 

[youngatheart]

6 hours ago, balletgremlin said:

 

As far as I'm aware level 2 is supposed to be Grade 5/IF, level 3 is intermediate/AF/grades 6-8 and level 4 is Advanced 1 & 2 level. My teacher's taken a look at level 4 and is considering starting us with level 3 instead as it's trickier than she thought.

 

Correct - however under "prior learning" it only states Grade 3 and the prepublicity indicated all you needed was to be at a G2/3 level.

 

I don't know why your teacher would consider putting you straight in for level 4 - since once achieved, it means you would have "nowhere to go" after that! Personally I would expect EVERYONE to want to start at level 2 (en pointe if it would have been too easy otherwise!) so they had the opportunity to experience the whole syllabus.

Edited February 9, 2018 by youngatheart

[balletgremlin]

@youngatheart - the class in question is an open advanced ballet class (class is in flat shoes, pointe is separate) so exams aren't necessarily the end goal (I do plenty of other RAD classes with teenagers where it is) but this new repertoire syllabus seems to fit us perfectly - we're more than capable of dancing tricky choreography and like being challenged by Advanced 1 at the moment but we would also love to dance without having to do pointe. I have done exercises from as low as grade 4 since starting dancing again as an adult in lower level classes and enjoyed them but I'd say everyone in this class was grade 5 standard at least 15 years ago (when we were in our early teens) so level 2 probably wouldn't be the best fit for us.

 

My teacher will trial it with us and then start with the teenagers who, again, want the challenge without worrying about pointe (though I'm sure there'll be plenty more who will be more than happy to do it on pointe). Then she'll probably do the lower levels which will open up more classes to everyone who wants to do more ballet.

 

Edited to add: haven't had a repertoire class yet so we'll see how difficult it actually is as I realised I sounded a bit cocky when I said I thought level 2 would be too easy. As I'm one of the weaker dancers in the advanced class and also do as much ballet as I can possibly fit into my life, I'm sure there'll be a point in the future where I'll have learnt dances from each of the levels in the various classes I attend but I think the stronger members of the class would be put off by the drop in difficulty and it just wouldn't be right for the class my teacher is trying to teach it to.

Edited February 9, 2018 by balletgremlin

[Mummy twinkle toes]

The level 2 exam is equivalent to grade 5/IF. Do not forget these variations are danced by ballet principals so should be sufficiently challenging to do well although they have stated level 2 will be modified. Level 4 will be the full version.

[youngatheart]

No Balletgremlin you didn't sound cocky at all - all I was trying to say was that if you only did the top level, once it was over that would be that - whereas if you did all 3 levels you could look forward to years worth of classes to keep you busy! I totally agree you would probably find Level 2 too easy if you were doing it on flat - but if done on pointe, there is NO WAY it could still be considered Level 2 work (apart from the basic classwork unit which is not en pointe). In terms of the RAD syllabus, you would need to be at the level of "working towards Advanced Foundation" at least to attempt it en pointe - which would actually make it into Level 3 work!

 

Of course, as you say, once your teacher introduces the lower levels you could always go back and try them en pointe later on, even if you don't do the exam......

 

I guess that is why the RAD have given pointe/no pointe options at all 3 levels, so that vocational students can still be challenged by going back to Level 2, while recreational dancers can gain access to Level 4 for the first time.

 

I really hope Discovering Repertoire takes off, as there don't seem to be many classes on offer around here yet - and I have heard that some teachers won't introduce it because they believe it to be too advanced for their adult classes since there is no Level 1. Of course it is not clear yet what actual standard of dancing is required to get a pass.......

 

Actually It would be good if the RAD could (perhaps as the next project) introduce an exam at Level 1 for adult and teen beginners, as their lower grades are so definitely aimed at children (unlike some of the other syllabi).

[Nicola H]

1 hour ago, youngatheart said:

<snip>

Actually It would be good if the RAD could (perhaps as the next project) introduce an exam at Level 1 for adult and teen beginners, as their lower grades are so definitely aimed at children (unlike some of the other syllabi).

i did make a similar suggestion  earlier in the  thread 

ideal world would see  the adult beginner  syllabus  as a CDET  project rather than specifically  RAD  and  then  each ofthe award bodies could opt in and produce their   materials  using their house style and  technique definitions ... 

[youngatheart]

I was thinking more along the lines of an RAD standalone "Level 1 Award in Adult Ballet Technique" and/or "Level 1 Award in Adult Ballet Performance", to be taken using 3rd rather than 5th position throughout and leading directly into both Intermediate Foundation and Discovering Repertoire Level 2, with a minimum age for entry 11 (or perhaps 10).

 

BTW I've just seen that the RAD have updated the Discovering Repertoire page on their website to state in bold why there is "currently" (interesting.....!) no Level 1 - so obviously this is an issue that has already been coming up a lot, not just in the circles I have heard it!

 

 

[Nicola H]

Not sure why people are complaining that that  DR level  2  includes  new material over and above gr 3 , surely gr 4 / 5 and IF  do  as well ... 

a link to the  page in question would be appeciated  as i can;t  find any  reference to  the statement over why  no  NQF  level 1 qualification  is offered  

[youngatheart]

Hi Nicola

 

Here you go:

 

https://www.rad.org.uk/achieve/exams/what-we-do/discovering-repertoire

 

This is definitely a change to the original page, as I first saw it yesterday after making my earlier post.

 

I don't think it is the new material people are complaining about - on the contrary, that is surely a major plus point! - but (in the context of recreational adult ballet) there is a huge jump between Grade 3 vocabulary and DR Level 2. (i.e. if you are a child doing the grades, there is firstly G4, then G5 and IF (even if you are learning IF at the same time as G4/5, that is the intended order for taking the exams).

 

For a hitherto recreational adult who has never done an exam before, I can see why teachers are dubious that they could achieve the required standard (whatever that actually is).

 

Personally I have perceived DR as intended more for adults who danced as children into their teens, perhaps completing the grades and even some of the vocationals, later returning as adults and wanting to continue with exams. In that context IMO it is ideally pitched.

 

What is now required is something for the true adult beginner to "bridge the gap". Not a "moan" (on my part, anyway) - just a suggestion!

 

[Michelle_Richer]

On ‎11‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 12:28, youngatheart said:

 

For a hitherto recreational adult who has never done an exam before, I can see why teachers are dubious that they could achieve the required standard (whatever that actually is).

 

Personally I have perceived DR as intended more for adults who danced as children into their teens, perhaps completing the grades and even some of the vocationals, later returning as adults and wanting to continue with exams. In that context IMO it is ideally pitched.

 

What is now required is something for the true adult beginner to "bridge the gap". Not a "moan" (on my part, anyway) - just a suggestion!

 

 

I’ve been following this topic for a little while now and I really do wonder where I would fit in as a “recreational adult dancer who has never done an exam before”.

I trust exam in this context means “ballet exam”

 

Does anyone have a list of the actual solo’s covered by each level.