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British training at Lower and Upper Schools


Vonrothbart

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I’m also curious about why it is more of an issue for the girls? 

 

I have 2 JA boys wanting to audition next year for year 7 and it does seem to be a more heartening outlook for the boys- I wonder is this actually the case or are there just fewer boys parents out there telling their story and sharing their journey ? The figures for upper school do seem to suggest the training for the boys stands them in better stead for an upper school place. Wish things were more transparent! 

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8 hours ago, Bluebird22 said:

I’m also curious about why it is more of an issue for the girls? 

 

I have 2 JA boys wanting to audition next year for year 7 and it does seem to be a more heartening outlook for the boys- I wonder is this actually the case or are there just fewer boys parents out there telling their story and sharing their journey ? The figures for upper school do seem to suggest the training for the boys stands them in better stead for an upper school place. Wish things were more transparent! 

RBS Boys training is no different to the girls. It is purely that there are fewer boys coming in from abroad and therefore the Director has more boys places to give.

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13 minutes ago, KeepDancing!! said:

ENBS results have been sent. I know students with offers.

 

Have the Royal upper results been sent for non wl students?

 

I have heard anywhere between 5 and 9 boys from WL got offers at upper school, and 5 girls.Happy to be corrected if this is wrong!

I think it is 5 girls and 10 boys. Happy to be corrected.

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Unless I'm missing something, I don't see why knowing how many have been there since Year 7 is a meaningful indicator of anything in itself.  I might be inclined to look specifically at the backgrounds of those who might have joined in Years 9 or 10 having not had any RB training previously, but look at (e.g.) Yasmine Naghdi who joined WL in Year 8 having been a JA and MA (?) and not got into WL in Year 7 - clearly if there are other dancers with similar backgrounds then "joining WL late" is not the same thing as "having a non-RBS background".

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Yes you're correct Ruth - I suppose as virtually all going in at Y7 are UK trained it gives an easy indicator of British progress without going into personal details of individuals.

I would imagine a significant number of those entering after Y7 are not UK trained. 

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7 hours ago, Sadielou said:

RBS Boys training is no different to the girls. It is purely that there are fewer boys coming in from abroad and therefore the Director has more boys places to give.

Boys are in short supply, so they tend to nurture them and hang on to them if possible. There is a huge surplus of girls so they can pick and choose whoever they like from all over the world.

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6 minutes ago, mart said:

Ok then how can we find out who got US places this year . Without treading on toes .and being inappropriate on the forum 

We can’t unless the parents or child personally lets you know. 

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I’m new to the forum with a daughter off to vocational school in September , obviously reading the statistics on here is alarming and a bit depressing if I’m honest . Is there anyone on here that could share some happy/ successful stories of their children’s time at vocational school and beyond ? 

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Mart, our Forum rules are clear and all members agree to these rules upon joining the Forum.  As well as a specific section about Discussing Schools, the Acceptable Use Policy also has this paragraph under “Privacy”:

 

No member should give details of another member’s children such as their name or their dance school, unless the parent has already done so publicly here – this applies particularly in the Doing Dance forum.”

 

I hope that clarifies things.  

 

Many thanks,

 

Anna C on behalf of Balletcoforum Moderators
 

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Jeteitallaway

 

Please don’t be despondent.

One of my pupils has recently graduated and has gained a job in a reputable company in the U.K. .

 

She began at my own school , then Hammond , then another vocational school for post 16 .

 

My DS went to Tring in year 9 and graduated in 2017 .

He gained a job in a lovely classical company abroad and is extremely happy .

He had an amazing time at Tring - gained 8 GCSE , 2 A levels .

He also made lifelong friends , particularly one , who still comes on holiday with us .

His time there included 3 trips to Sweden , a fully funded Summer school in Hong Kong for 3 weeks and much more .

 

These are just a couple of the many many success stories out there .

Of course there will be a few who don’t make the grade , or have a change of heart , but equally those who go on to happy and fulfilled careers in the industry .

My DS has a friend who gave up dancing aged 18 after being 

at vocational school since 11 .

He says that he doesn’t regret a single minute .

 

Good luck on your journey into vocational world , I am sure exciting times lie ahead .

 

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4 minutes ago, tutugirl said:

Jeteitallaway

 

Please don’t be despondent.

One of my pupils has recently graduated and has gained a job in a reputable company in the U.K. .

 

She began at my own school , then Hammond , then another vocational school for post 16 .

 

My DS went to Tring in year 9 and graduated in 2017 .

He gained a job in a lovely classical company abroad and is extremely happy .

He had an amazing time at Tring - gained 8 GCSE , 2 A levels .

He also made lifelong friends , particularly one , who still comes on holiday with us .

His time there included 3 trips to Sweden , a fully funded Summer school in Hong Kong for 3 weeks and much more .

 

These are just a couple of the many many success stories out there .

Of course there will be a few who don’t make the grade , or have a change of heart , but equally those who go on to happy and fulfilled careers in the industry .

My DS has a friend who gave up dancing aged 18 after being 

at vocational school since 11 .

He says that he doesn’t regret a single minute .

 

Good luck on your journey into vocational world , I am sure exciting times lie ahead .

 

Thank you , wonderful to hear this . I’ve gone through so many emotion in the last week . From happiness to sheer panic . I’m trying to approach it realistically and hope that it’s the right decision. Sounds like your son had a wonderful time regardless of the outcome. Hope to hear some more happy stories .... pours wine 🍷 

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13 hours ago, Anna C said:

 

No member should give details of another member’s children such as their name or their dance school, unless the parent has already done so publicly here 

 

Is the AD a member of this forum? Perhaps the Forum rules should be "No member should give details of *any* child ...." - just to make it clear?

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8 minutes ago, glissade said:

Is the AD a member of this forum? Perhaps the Forum rules should be "No member should give details of *any* child ...." - just to make it clear?

 

To be honest, I don’t know and I wouldn’t/couldn’t confirm or deny even if I knew.  

 

For now, let’s assume that we don’t allow “outing” of or discussion of which school anyone else’s child has or has not got into, with the exception of publicly named competition winners (also mentioned in the AUP). 

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So based on (unconfirmed and maths not my greatest subject) is this a fair comment?

 

In the girls if there are approx 18 students and from that about 4-5 have made it to Upper School that's about a 27% chance of making the cut. From these 4-5 I think only 2 have been there since Y7 which makes only 11% chance of your DC making the cut.

 

I wonder how this compares to the other schools which have Upper Schools?

If you are a new parent entering y7 with this information would you still send you DC to this school knowing the limited progression rate or would you opt for a school that you know your DC would have a better chance of going through the school years? 

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Hello everyone. I've been reading through all the posts as I often do although don't often comment or post myself. I agree and sympathise with everyone on here. But these stories are not new..... The ballet/dance world is a law unto itself. Whilst things should be fairer sadly I don't think they ever will. And can I just say it is Directors choice whether you are auditioning for schools or companies. 

My DD would probably be considered a success story having gone all the way through RBS and graduating a couple of years ago having never I might add been picked up for JAs. Her time both at lower and upper school was full of ups and downs and times when teachers comments could actually be quite cruel. Casting choices.....'Oh the same old ones' 🙄  There's a lot I believe that goes on behind the scenes..... But I think if you can keep your head down,work your socks off and look at the bigger picture and the end game and try not to get involved in the small politics that go on.....it can help your journey wherever it may land you. 

I completely understand the parents of DC auditioning for companies. We had all of that. Me tirelessly searching for cheap flights and hotels and buses to theatres. How demoralising it is for your kids if the director just about puts in an appearance 10 minutes before the end of the class. My advice there would be if you can possibly get a private audition.....for example join in with the company ....avoid open auditions....they are like cattle markets and so much talent gets missed. 

My DD is in a company in Germany and it has been very tough ......the directors are very hard. But.....she is performing , she has made a life for herself. And I think maybe if she'd had a really easy time at school she would not have been able to cope with what goes on beyond vocational school. And now that that bit is behind us we can remember the good bits. Performing with the company....dancing at Buckingham palace.....trips to Japan and New York. And definately the incredible friendships that are made and will last a lifetime.  

And some of those even though they secured contracts have actually decided this life isn't for them.....and they are perfectly happy doing other things. But at the tender age of 11.....this is what all of them wanted to do. Imagine if they'd not given it a go and then in later years thinking 'what if'. 

There are no guarantees in life whatever your children decide they want to do/be. 

But good luck to all those starting on the vocational route......and yes much wine will be needed 🍷

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35 minutes ago, Juliet said:

Hello everyone. I've been reading through all the posts as I often do although don't often comment or post myself. I agree and sympathise with everyone on here. But these stories are not new..... The ballet/dance world is a law unto itself. Whilst things should be fairer sadly I don't think they ever will. And can I just say it is Directors choice whether you are auditioning for schools or companies. 

My DD would probably be considered a success story having gone all the way through RBS and graduating a couple of years ago having never I might add been picked up for JAs. Her time both at lower and upper school was full of ups and downs and times when teachers comments could actually be quite cruel. Casting choices.....'Oh the same old ones' 🙄  There's a lot I believe that goes on behind the scenes..... But I think if you can keep your head down,work your socks off and look at the bigger picture and the end game and try not to get involved in the small politics that go on.....it can help your journey wherever it may land you. 

I completely understand the parents of DC auditioning for companies. We had all of that. Me tirelessly searching for cheap flights and hotels and buses to theatres. How demoralising it is for your kids if the director just about puts in an appearance 10 minutes before the end of the class. My advice there would be if you can possibly get a private audition.....for example join in with the company ....avoid open auditions....they are like cattle markets and so much talent gets missed. 

My DD is in a company in Germany and it has been very tough ......the directors are very hard. But.....she is performing , she has made a life for herself. And I think maybe if she'd had a really easy time at school she would not have been able to cope with what goes on beyond vocational school. And now that that bit is behind us we can remember the good bits. Performing with the company....dancing at Buckingham palace.....trips to Japan and New York. And definately the incredible friendships that are made and will last a lifetime.  

And some of those even though they secured contracts have actually decided this life isn't for them.....and they are perfectly happy doing other things. But at the tender age of 11.....this is what all of them wanted to do. Imagine if they'd not given it a go and then in later years thinking 'what if'. 

There are no guarantees in life whatever your children decide they want to do/be. 

But good luck to all those starting on the vocational route......and yes much wine will be needed 🍷

Finally a success story , I do feel we are giving up so much sending her it’s nice to hear some positivity. Thank you for sharing 

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57 minutes ago, FredF said:

So based on (unconfirmed and maths not my greatest subject) is this a fair comment?

 

In the girls if there are approx 18 students and from that about 4-5 have made it to Upper School that's about a 27% chance of making the cut. From these 4-5 I think only 2 have been there since Y7 which makes only 11% chance of your DC making the cut.

 

I wonder how this compares to the other schools which have Upper Schools?

If you are a new parent entering y7 with this information would you still send you DC to this school knowing the limited progression rate or would you opt for a school that you know your DC would have a better chance of going through the school years? 

Firstly, there are way less than 18 female students in the class.

Secondly, as posters have already described, nothing is straightforward in the dance world, from yr7 ( or before) and through that uncertainty and upheaval  comes strength, persistence, creativity and experience, all of which you will need in bucketloads if you are to eventually be part of a company. Not being accepted to upper school as a natural progression may be a confidence crusher to begin with, but over the long term it can be a blessing and give you the extra experience you need. Finding new schools/ teachers who motivate you more and see different qualities and potential in you and enable you to push yourself onwards and upwards, can lead to a more creative and mature dancer.

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For my daughter it wasn’t a case that she wanted to go away to vocational school, it was a need, a thirst to really, really have to go. She was desperate to perform, loved it and yet she was a very quiet and very academic little girl. Her strength and determination got her through some of the tough times. I always asked if she wanted to come home, but she always said no this is what I have to do to become a dancer. 

I actually believe that our country has some excellent training and associate programmes alongside a very good education. If your child gets a place at a good vocational school, with good education, small class sizes etc, then be proud. If they change their mind or if it’s not the right pathway for them, then that’s fine too, best to have experienced the opportunity rather than regretting. 

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6 hours ago, glissade said:

Is the AD a member of this forum? Perhaps the Forum rules should be "No member should give details of *any* child ...." - just to make it clear?

You make a good point here, Glissade, so we have just changed the wording of the AUP to reflect your suggestion above.  Thank you.

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5 hours ago, valentina said:

Firstly, there are way less than 18 female students in the class.

Secondly, as posters have already described, nothing is straightforward in the dance world, from yr7 ( or before) and through that uncertainty and upheaval  comes strength, persistence, creativity and experience, all of which you will need in bucketloads if you are to eventually be part of a company. Not being accepted to upper school as a natural progression may be a confidence crusher to begin with, but over the long term it can be a blessing and give you the extra experience you need. Finding new schools/ teachers who motivate you more and see different qualities and potential in you and enable you to push yourself onwards and upwards, can lead to a more creative and mature dancer.

As I said my figures are unconfirmed (some years are close to that number),  and I agree on your points. It was more of a point of if there was anyway in comparison between schools. If one school had a retention percentage much higher and still produced good dancers than another would this be a better school? WL does have a advantage as a "Brand Name" but its a shame there is not a independent process to check that the standard is deserved. A proper independent league table of dance schools may make interesting reading! A OFSTEAD of the dance schools would help a lot of people and probably schools who don't have huge financial backing but do have great teachers and passion.

 

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Facebook reminded that 10 years ago today my son was offered a place at ENBS. I was more than a little excited having felt very stressed for weeks over the auditions - we heard on the day of the final audition and we were still waiting to hear from others schools at the time. He went to WL from year 7 to 9 then to Elmhurst, which is where he chose to stay for upper school in the end. He went on to work in a ballet company in Europe for 3 years before coming back to work freelance in the UK but then decided to give up dancing. 

 

We (that does include him) don't regret a minute despite some terrible lows - there were plenty of highs to keep us going. It was always about giving him the opportunity to try and see what happened with no regrets of "what if?". 

 

Out of his WL year group most have gone on to be professional dancers - well the boys at least. I'm not sure about all the girls - fewer of them are still dancing. 

 

All you can do is make the best decisions you can at the time without looking too far ahead because you just don't know what's going to happen. Some will go on to be Royal Ballet principals, most won't, but they will have amazing experiences along the way.

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4 hours ago, FredF said:

As I said my figures are unconfirmed (some years are close to that number),  and I agree on your points. It was more of a point of if there was anyway in comparison between schools. If one school had a retention percentage much higher and still produced good dancers than another would this be a better school? WL does have a advantage as a "Brand Name" but its a shame there is not a independent process to check that the standard is deserved. A proper independent league table of dance schools may make interesting reading! A OFSTEAD of the dance schools would help a lot of people and probably schools who don't have huge financial backing but do have great teachers and passion.

 

I totally get your point and yes, it’s very easy to use the ‘ brand name’ without it being thoroughly deserved. However trying to ‘measure’ the standard is fairly impossible to do. Exams sometimes give us some idea of a certain standard being reached but we all know they are not conclusive evidence. Darcy Bussell is the example of this having achieved a pass plus for her first Professional exam ( the marks used to be pass, passplus, commended, highly commended, honours) Would hate to think of ballet taking the route of some academic schools where being top of the league tables is the main goal. Destroys the meaning, enjoyment, artistry of learning anything! How can you possibly measure that certain ‘something’ that makes a dancer a dancer and not a sports person. Most vocational schools, have their fair share of good and less good teachers and are a mixed bag of desirable and less desirable. Just because one will be more likely to take you through both  lower and upper school does not necessarily mean you are of a better standard or more likely to find employment at the end. Many of the students I trained with had, at some point, been assessed out of another school. After the initial shock, most went on to have successful dance careers in classical work. And is finding employment the absolute measure of good standard? As many people have mentioned there is the journey to consider. Then there is the element of taste. What one artistic director loves another hates and so on, not to mention how the different personalities of the students will do well at one school and not the other and vice versa.

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The schools are all inspected for the quality of academic and vocational education but it’s impossible to quantify a league table of which is the best. One could argue that where teachers only have cherry picked students to work with they have an easier time than those who work with students with more impe factions for example. 

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Remember also some DC’s may just want a change of scene/location/peers/teachers etc. Spending Years 7-11 in one school - especially if boarding - can seem a long 5 years & even though the US may well offer what they want, they may still seek to change! Variety is the spice of life & just as many non dancing young people change schools for Sixth Form with so many more options opening up, it should be expected that the dance world will be the same with more defined courses/qualifications/company associations/performance opportunities/costs etc meaning many more choices in the small world of dance & even smaller world of ballet!

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35 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Remember also some DC’s may just want a change of scene/location/peers/teachers etc. Spending Years 7-11 in one school - especially if boarding - can seem a long 5 years & even though the US may well offer what they want, they may still seek to change! Variety is the spice of life & just as many non dancing young people change schools for Sixth Form with so many more options opening up, it should be expected that the dance world will be the same with more defined courses/qualifications/company associations/performance opportunities/costs etc meaning many more choices in the small world of dance & even smaller world of ballet!

Couldn’t agree more peanut68. Being in the same establishment for too long can lead to a sort of apathy for both students and teachers.

Nothing like a change of scene to re- energise oneself. The downside of this is the funding issue, I guess.

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