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British training at Lower and Upper Schools


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7 minutes ago, Dancermum2003 said:

  I’m not sure it was the competition that got her in. I think the problem is the same staff sitting on audition panels Year in Year out. If they don’t like you in Year seven they are unlikely to like you in Year ten! And this particular entrant was offered places all over the world - without winning. 

 

This.

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4 hours ago, Dancermum2003 said:

 I know who you are referring to as she was at my nieces school. She didn’t win - she was placed in the top 12. She was also invited to New York finals but the school she moved to wouldn’t allow it. I’m not sure it was the competition that got her in. I think the problem is the same staff sitting on audition panels Year in Year out. If they don’t like you in Year seven they are unlikely to like you in Year ten! And this particular entrant was offered places all over the world - without winning. So are the competitions the exposure our dancers need?

 

What changed for this girl then? Are you suggesting she got the place because she was seen by someone other than those on the panel when she auditioned and would perhaps have got a place if the person who saw her at the YAGP had been on her initial audition panel?

 

I think exposure certainly helps. When you're competing a solo at a competition, you're watched more closely than you would be in an audition when the panel has to watch a whole class. You're also performing familiar work that you've perfected, so you're really showing the best of yourself. It's easier to stand out and spark a director's interest than it is in an audition when you can become lost in a crowd of talented dancers.

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Asking where are the "British" students in all these competitions - isn't it these that schools like the RBS don't send their students to because of the poor timing in relation to the academic year?

 

I reckon there are probably just as many competition winners/medallists touted as the "next best thing" who don't actually end up making it as there are those that do (not to mention the number of non-competitors who actually make it to the top!).  I can certainly think of a few who have pretty much sunk without trace, but whether they gave up or not I don't know.  It would be very interesting to go through the lists of top(ish) graduates from ballet schools worldwide and see how many of the "star pupils" have actually ended up doing "better" than their peers.

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2 hours ago, invisiblecircus said:

 

What changed for this girl then? Are you suggesting she got the place because she was seen by someone other than those on the panel when she auditioned and would perhaps have got a place if the person who saw her at the YAGP had been on her initial audition panel?

 

I think exposure certainly helps. When you're competing a solo at a competition, you're watched more closely than you would be in an audition when the panel has to watch a whole class. You're also performing familiar work that you've perfected, so you're really showing the best of yourself. It's easier to stand out and spark a director's interest than it is in an audition when you can become lost in a crowd of talented dancers.

I don’t know hercwell enough (or thinknits appropriate to comment on individuals). The point I’m making is that this wasn’t a ‘winner’ of a competition but she was seen by a teacher at the school (not the AD) and was given a place. This would imply that the original and subsequent panels at auditions (which are usually made up of the same people) obviously didn’t see what the teacher saw or didn’t like what they saw. AS Harwel  said ‘what has changed in those months! Except the observer!! 

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  • 11 months later...
On 15/03/2018 at 21:57, Sadielou said:

Does anyone else find it odd that RBS have found the money to create a new post for Samira Saidi to "recruit the worlds most gifted dancers" ? - especially as competition entrants from both YAGP and Prix are already making up two thirds of each RBS US year group. Do we really need to pay somebody to find more ?  RBS even have an International scholars page, talented kids who are technically too advanced for White Lodge and have been promised US places if they want them when they are old enough. Several foreign students in year 1 are currently only year 11 age and there is one girl joining US next term who is only 14. The RBS year 7s have the same initial potential as those students from abroad, but are obviously not getting the training they need and deserve. Why are the RBS not embarrassed about the lack of home trained students coming through ? Why is nobody questioning this. Surely money would be better spent training the students they already have to the standard they obviously require. Anybody can cherry pick from the competitions, but it seems that very few can actually train dancers !

I think the answer is simple, in GB regulations.... not allowing teachers push to hard ( health&safety, 'child abuse',  etc...) And also WL students not allowed to take part in competitions in the first place as it can 'damage' them and disturb their studies. Take note, that those international competition winners mostly home educated, private over coached, hardly pushed children ('abused' in the studio 24/7). There are few who were not really talented 'ballet children' only some years ago, now are the stars, because of all said above + really extreem strive to succeed. 

I don't know what else it can be.

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6 of Dd1’s friends entered YAGP (in Barcelona) and 1 is through to finals in New York and 3 others got scholarships to Bolshoi summer school. British students are entering although these were all Russian trained.

We could not afford it. Competition itself is not too expensive but no heats in UK so need to factor in time and travel plus tutus and pointe shoes. There is now the launch of the British ballet Grand Prix which is more affordable but just starting out.

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An additional factor to be considered when addressing the training of British dancers is the nature of teaching prior to entering vocational training. These are key years of emotional and physical development for young people where a lot of good or indeed damage can be done. The culture of fear based training needs to be stopped at any level. When the emotion of fear is online in a young dancer you will NEVER get the best out of a student. High levels of fear actually cause changes in functioning of the brain and regulation of levels of arousal. Over prolonged periods this can cause damage. There is no way you will get or even ‘aspire’ to get the best from a student when they are more terrified by the response of their teacher than anything else. This culture and throw away comments like “it’s just the ballet world” MUST stop or be stopped. Unfortunately, teachers who are guilty of such practices will be the last to admit this is the case. As a result, more needs to be put in place to safeguard students, inform parents/carers of their rights and encourage other teachers to whistleblow when they see this happening.

Unfortunately, there is a huge hole in the dance world when teachers are not registered or accredited teachers. I am not going down the line of who makes a better teacher (ex pro dancers vs trained teacher etc) but instead addressing this from the perspective of how do we safeguard students and indeed professional dancers if there is no regulating body to which a teacher is accountable. This leaves a cohort of teachers who are not obliged to practice via any code of teaching standards, ethics, safeguarding practices etc. Some may say it is up to a school/company etc to deal with situations like this but what if they do not? What if they deny there is a problem or, worst still, blame the dancer. It is not uncommon for faculty to act in a similar manner or become imbedded in a school/company where there are inadequate safeguarding/anti bullying policies in place in the first place? This is a tricky and heartbreaking dynamic as it results in a situation where there is the potential for abusive teachers to become untouchable. Most will know that social care will show very little interest in incidents of this level. 

How can this ‘loophole be addressed’? Additionally, how can parents/carers/teachers etc have more confidence in systems put in place by teaching regulating bodies and schools. Students need to be nurtured from a young age to give the best opportunities of a successful career. Surely, the emotional aspects of teaching must also be addressed alongside the technical standard of teaching the next generation of UK students. I have no doubt that the talent is there but the formula is much in need of an ‘honest’ and indepth review. 

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As this thread from last year was resurrected I took the time to re read it all from start to finish. It truly makes for sorrowful and depressing reading. In terms of all the issues that have been raised in the personal and sometimes harrowing posts people made under this subject I would expect it must all feel very raw yet again at this time of year as some UK students and parents face the pain and bewilderment of having been told their child is 'no longer suitable' for the training the school handpicked them for a year or two ago.

 

I personally know people affected by this. There has been a large amount of current students assessed out of various years at WL in the past few weeks, and from other vocational schools. In one case students were told in advance their places could be at risk pre assessment, as spaces had been given in an already full year to international students for September. This was also before any of the final auditions were held for potential entry to that year. At the final audition for that particular year there were a few UK students but a majority of international students. No Uk students were given a place. What message does this give out? 

 

For the students who have been asked to leave they now face the worrying time of trying to find a place to continue their vocational training in one of the other schools in the UK whose classes may already be full or close to. This is a problem which could be compounded by places at White Lodge being given to international students, meaning spaces haven't been made in the other vocational schools here in the UK. Once can only imagine that some of these very students may well have turned down places at the other UK schools for y7 in order to accept a place at White Lodge - and now find themselves in this situation.

 

As Royal upper school have their final auditions this weekend  it will be interesting to see a) how many non White Lodge UK students have made it to finals, and b) out of these and the current White Lodge students how many are offered places. I would like to hope it is a different story to last year, and that a large proportion of the original White Lodge cohort do get places, which might go some way to restore people's faith in UK training, rather than it be the case that the majority of places go to either international students (competition winners and otherwise) or International Students brought in for a year or two at the end of White Lodge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, balletcoach said:

I think the answer is simple, in GB regulations.... not allowing teachers push to hard ( health&safety, 'child abuse',  etc...) And also WL students not allowed to take part in competitions in the first place as it can 'damage' them and disturb their studies. Take note, that those international competition winners mostly home educated, private over coached, hardly pushed children ('abused' in the studio 24/7). There are few who were not really talented 'ballet children' only some years ago, now are the stars, because of all said above + really extreem strive to succeed. 

I don't know what else it can be.

 

Ballet Coach, sorry I wasn't quite clear - are you saying you disagree with the approach taken by international competition winners, and that the UK method of not allowing teachers to 'push hard' is in your opinion a better approach?

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23 minutes ago, KeepDancing!! said:

As this thread from last year was resurrected I took the time to re read it all from start to finish. It truly makes for sorrowful and depressing reading. In terms of all the issues that have been raised in the personal and sometimes harrowing posts people made under this subject I would expect it must all feel very raw yet again at this time of year as some UK students and parents face the pain and bewilderment of having been told their child is 'no longer suitable' for the training the school handpicked them for a year or two ago.

 

I personally know people affected by this. There has been a large amount of current students assessed out of various years at WL in the past few weeks, and from other vocational schools. In one case students were told in advance their places could be at risk pre assessment, as spaces had been given in an already full year to international students for September. This was also before any of the final auditions were held for potential entry to that year. At the final audition for that particular year there were a few UK students but a majority of international students. No Uk students were given a place. What message does this give out? 

 

For the students who have been asked to leave they now face the worrying time of trying to find a place to continue their vocational training in one of the other schools in the UK whose classes may already be full or close to. This is a problem which could be compounded by places at White Lodge being given to international students, meaning spaces haven't been made in the other vocational schools here in the UK. Once can only imagine that some of these very students may well have turned down places at the other UK schools for y7 in order to accept a place at White Lodge - and now find themselves in this situation.

 

As Royal upper school have their final auditions this weekend  it will be interesting to see a) how many non White Lodge UK students have made it to finals, and b) out of these and the current White Lodge students how many are offered places. I would like to hope it is a different story to last year, and that a large proportion of the original White Lodge cohort do get places, which might go some way to restore people's faith in UK training, rather than it be the case that the majority of places go to either international students (competition winners and otherwise) or International Students brought in for a year or two at the end of White Lodge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not disputing that there are obvious issues with the low number of lower school pupils graduating to upper school. If we compare to Paris Opera where most ( not all) seem to go through the whole system. However, I feel your account of acceptance of international students is a little biased. There were 3 new students accepted into yr 9  last September, all British and not competition winners.

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5 minutes ago, valentina said:

I am not disputing that there are obvious issues with the low number of lower school pupils graduating to upper school. If we compare to Paris Opera where most ( not all) seem to go through the whole system. However, I feel your account of acceptance of international students is a little biased. There were 3 new students accepted into yr 9  last September, all British and not competition winners.

 

Hi Valentina,

 

That is very good to hear about the UK students accepted into y9 last September. Thanks for sharing that.

 

I was referring to students being told this year that international students had been given places for September start pre-assessment.

 

 

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I’m curious is there a gender divide present? Are more girls being assessed out/leaving than boys? And are the international students predominantly female? 

 

I worry that the dancing world as a whole treats female dancers, from JA level right through to professional level, as highly replaceable. I get told by other teachers all the time how lucky I am to have so many successful boys, but no one bats an eyelid at my incredibly talented and accomplished girls. 

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It’s a complex question. Is it because we are a small nation and the  right bodies/ talent is small in comparison to Australia/ USA / Russia?

iI feel this argument doesn’t really stand up when you look at France, who’s population is not too dissimilar and, as I pointed out earlier, Paris Opera doesn’t seem to have the same issues Then there’s the training, I feel there is quite a bit of discrepancy between the way parents UK want their child’s training to be ( slow, safe practice), what most UK teachers desire for the training of their pupils and then what Directors worldwide want at 16. There are of course plenty of dancers out there who have come through the slow, careful route and  now have a successful careers, with bodies intact ( or relatively so) but it must take more time, reaching a peak around 18/19 rather than 14/15. I have no personal experience of PO, but in interviews, I have read that it is a tough place to train and not particularly pleasant.... (welcome to be corrected on this point). Just trying to work out why it works over there and not here.

 

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19 minutes ago, Tiaramum said:

This is my worry about taking up a year 7 place, we've also heard rumours that if assessed out of WL there will be little/no chance of getting another vocational school. What happened to just going to one class a week. LOL

 

Wow @Tiaramum that sounds like you have news worth celebrating?? (Whatever you decide to do). If I'm understanding right then huge congratulations to your DD 🎉

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34 minutes ago, Tiaramum said:

This is my worry about taking up a year 7 place, we've also heard rumours that if assessed out of WL there will be little/no chance of getting another vocational school. What happened to just going to one class a week. LOL

 

 

Wheras I have heard that certain other schools may be interested in building links to visit the school to watch class and speak to children who have been assessed out to discuss their options.

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4 minutes ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

 

Wheras I have heard that certain other schools may be interested in building links to visit the school to watch class and speak to children who have been assessed out to discuss their options.

That's reassuring. Thank you for sharing that.

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1 hour ago, Tiaramum said:

This is my worry about taking up a year 7 place, we've also heard rumours that if assessed out of WL there will be little/no chance of getting another vocational school. What happened to just going to one class a week. LOL

 

There were a few pupils assessed out of WL at Hammond and I know of others at Elmhurst in past. I think being assessed out can sometimes happen quite late in the audition season and this can make getting a place (especially MDS) tricky.

 

We never had a choice of LS places but for those who do I personally would be wanting a school where my DC had a good chance of getting to Y11 and where the LS was getting significant numbers into their US. Being assessed out before Y11 is mentally very tough and also academic issues.

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52 minutes ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

 

Wheras I have heard that certain other schools may be interested in building links to visit the school to watch class and speak to children who have been assessed out to discuss their options.

 

The way I heard it was that the teachers approached the other vocation schools to try to help the pupils.  Some have already had separate auditions and /or gone straight to final auditions.

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2 hours ago, Tiaramum said:

This is my worry about taking up a year 7 place, we've also heard rumours that if assessed out of WL there will be little/no chance of getting another vocational school. What happened to just going to one class a week. LOL

 

 

Almost all children assessed out of WL will be snapped up by another vocational school (unless due to injury). Everything WL saw to begin with will still be there and even one year training at WL makes a real difference to technique. 

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As said in various posts above, many talented Uk dancers often with 5 years of vocational training under their belt are being totally squeezed out at the higher levels. The top vocational schools in this country have no qualms about advertising their world wide auditions on all social media outlets.To the uninitiated it would seem that there is a dire need to fill spaces in these schools, but as parents and teachers on this forum know the situation is the exact opposite. I have personally been through the horrible, gut wrenching experience of assessments  with both my own children and my students. We too have listened to their teachers tell us that the chance of them getting places at the Upper level of training, would solely depend on the amount of places available after the Director had given places to foreign students (again before the schools own assessments). I can not help but wonder how these teachers can allow their students to be callously tossed aside year after year without questioning themselves and the training afforded to these students. My heart goes out to all parents and students currently going through this. The sad truth is that the training in our lower schools is not up to international standards and for many years several of our schools have simply got by on their brand names. Many parents of lower school students come to realise this quiet quickly but are caught in a catch 22 situation. If only enough parents could get together and protest, things could change, however as the ballet world is so small and parents are petrified to mess up any chance their child may have, this will never happen. I made a fuss towards the end of my child's training (we had nothing to lose as we had already made the decision to go elsewhere) but even with only one month of schooling left, I was hauled up in front of the Director like a naughty school child and literally told to get back into line if I wanted my child to graduate and perform at the end of the year. Still haven't gotten over this experience ! It is so sad that this same topic rears its ugly head year after year.

 

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Happy to be corrected, but isn't it now the legal case that in the UK our young people must remain in some form of full time higher education until they are 18? Is this part of the reason wy we cold be seen as 'taking it slow/er' or 'pacing the training' as opposed to other nations training were there are not the work age or insistence to remain in education age limitations?

The days of Margot Fonteyn dancing lead roles at 14 are long gone....but then in those times it was often the case that education ceased for many at 14 & they entered the world of work. I do seem to recall Ferri/Durante & others all joining the actual RB company aged 15 even in the 1980's....I don't think even in then that would've been allowed for a British youth? Again, happy to be corrected!

So it seems to me the playing field has never been exactly even....& lets all be realistic also that quite often advanced skills/experience directly relate to how much training an individual has had which in turn often directly relates to opportunity which in many instances directly relates to how much cash can be thrown at it!

Cynical? You bet!  :wacko:

 

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Another point is there are thankfully regulations/restrictions in place to safeguard CHILDREN in education in UK.....hopefully limiting hours trained & ensuring their safety & physical/mental health is well looked after whilst training in ballet or any other area of education.

I bet this can not be said of all types of training accessed by some of these overseas 'Wunderkinder'

Some real double standards here....

So, we want the uber trained 'childbride' as long as we are not responsible for the lowering levels of acceptability for child welfare....

A bit like turning a blind eye to the sweatshop labour producing the designer brands wouldn't you say? We still buy them so are we equally culpable for the standards endured by those workers?

Any amazing talent coming in from abroad should only do so from a background of safe & balanced training. I don't want to see a child dance 32 perfect foutees en pointe but with the vacant & hopefully genuinely naïve inability to show expression & 'act' the role of a woman such as the major story ballet roles require.

Please let children worldwide be children! These hot housed kids in my opinion are as badly served in this as those forced to walk miles daily to simply collect water for their family survival.

Harsh? Maybe

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Exactly Pictures! And also, how many of these, once away from the control of pushy parents/teachers & out in the big wide world making their own life choices actually continue in dance or at least end up fulfilling the grand expectations put onto them so young?

 

Our UK youngsters do benefit in the most part from a balanced all round education with excellent dance training also available via many routes....

Please do not lets write them off as being behind their overs trained peers or lacking in standard/experience by age 16! They may well 'get there' by age 18/19/20 & then go on to have a long career of their choosing! And hopefully have a happy childhood behind them to recall too!!

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3 hours ago, Tiaramum said:

This is my worry about taking up a year 7 place, we've also heard rumours that if assessed out of WL there will be little/no chance of getting another vocational school. 

 

That isn't the case - other schools do take assessed-out WL students, and are happy to have them. Sometimes students will have auditioned there previously anyway and been offered a place, which wasn't taken up due to going to WL instead. 

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13 hours ago, valentina said:

I am not disputing that there are obvious issues with the low number of lower school pupils graduating to upper school. If we compare to Paris Opera where most ( not all) seem to go through the whole system. However, I feel your account of acceptance of international students is a little biased. There were 3 new students accepted into yr 9  last September, all British and not competition winners.

Well, one was 'returning' student, one british, but trained and lives abroad (so, no british trained), one british, and one to join in y10 from Australia (competition one).

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14 hours ago, KeepDancing!! said:

 

Ballet Coach, sorry I wasn't quite clear - are you saying you disagree with the approach taken by international competition winners, and that the UK method of not allowing teachers to 'push hard' is in your opinion a better approach?

I'm agree. It's just not making any sense as training in GB is weak in comparement to Worldwide, but why then worldwide students going to UK, especially at 16+.... Just because of the school name, or route through school to 'Rome'? Well, there's so many 'Rome' companies out there.

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8 hours ago, balletcoach said:

Well, one was 'returning' student, one british, but trained and lives abroad (so, no british trained), one british, and one to join in y10 from Australia (competition one).

 

The ‘returning’ student has trained in UK for the past 2 years, auditioning again, along with everyone else, having spent less than 1 week at RBS. Therefore 2/3 are British trained.

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23 hours ago, Tiaramum said:

This is my worry about taking up a year 7 place, we've also heard rumours that if assessed out of WL there will be little/no chance of getting another vocational school. What happened to just going to one class a week. LOL

 

 

Although my son was assessed out, if you think about it logically, the chances are that it won't.  If 10% of a year leave, 90% won't.

 

Whatever happens you have WL on your CV.  My son's view is that if he hadn't attended his first school, even though he wasn't that happy there, he wouldn't have the technique to be where he is now.  Possibly the name on the CV helped too - there were a lot of ex-students from that school in his first company.  But if he hadn't been assessed out he would have lost his love of dancing, and doubts if he would have continued,  the school  just wasn't right for him.

 

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