penelopesimpson Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 3 hours ago, taxi4ballet said: Are you the parent of a dancer, penelope? Because I am. My view is that if you wouldn't feel comfortable criticising someone face-to-face, then don't hide behind an anonymous forum to say it either. Theatrical reviews are one thing, but unkind remarks from internet randoms are something else. Yes, the forum is dedicated to ballet, but ballet would not exist without the dancers, would it? Sadly, I cannot agree. And no, I do not have the very great pleasure of being the parent of a dancer - I wish. Firstly, I am not hiding behind a forum. I have always posted in my own name and would be happy to repeat anything I have ever said here to anyone if they so wish. And I can say this because I have never said anything unkind or deliberately cruel. I would be more than happy to tell Matthew Ball that I thought his costume swamped him and I'm sure he'd probably have a good laugh about it. But - and I'm sorry to sound like a record on repeat - this is a forum. A forum is for discussion and as dancers are a key part of ballet, it stands to reason that opinions on their performance will and should be voiced. Dancers can choose what they read. I and others on this messageboard only have the one place they can discuss ballet and this forum is surely dedicated to just that. To suggest that it should be censored because somebody who is involved in the subject matter under discussion may/may not decided to look in is surely ridiculous? I am sure a dancer's life is one long critique and I am equally sure that each dancer is their own biggest critic. I heard Ed Watson say recently that he had only ever done two performances in his life that he was proud of. But Ballet Forum has not been set up as a safe space for dancers. I am sure they have their own support networks within their profession but just because some of the posters have children who are dancers, doesn't mean it is for dancers. I find it hard to imagine any professional dancer wanting genuine fans, as we all are, to be afraid of discussing a performance for fear it might upset someone. Fonty expresses these feelings well upthread. Those of us who wish the forum to remain the informative, discoursive and sometimes entertaining place it has always been, rather than become the exclusive property of the moral majority, find it depressing to read some of the self-censorship ideas put forward. These have included anything not exclusively the remit of the dancer such as costumes and casting because this is not 'their fault,' progressing through to anything remotely critical about a particular performance. Logically, this would leave us discussing what exactly? Blogs was fantastic tonight, son of blogs even better? And yes, I do appreciate that there are many forum members who love all the intricate detail about whether steps have been changed since the first production fifty years ago, etc. Personally, this doesn't turn me on although I love reading about it and picking up valuable knowledge. But there are others like myself who view a production in a wider sense and enjoy giving the amateur's view. And, yes, that does include costume/appearance and performance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelopesimpson Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 23 hours ago, Anna C said: It's all very well being "a free-thinker utterly opposed to group-think" but that doesn't mean that fairness, constructive criticism and sometimes even saying nothing is or should be the opposite of that (and therefore only worthy of "sheep"). I was once told very sneeringly that I was "too nice", but I don't take that as anything to be ashamed of. Nor does it mean I'm not a "free thinker". What it does mean is that I think about the effects my words may have, on human beings with feelings, before I speak, or press "post". Well, Anna, I have always done that. May I add that posters are human beings with feelings, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Well that's it. I'm done here. Bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said: Firstly, I am not hiding behind a forum. I have always posted in my own name and would be happy to repeat anything I have ever said here to anyone if they so wish. I write this as me, Janet McNulty, not as a moderator. Most members who have DC post using pseudonyms to prevent identification of their children, particularly when in education. There are others who choose to post using pseudonyms on the Forum and, as long as they do not breach AUP I respect that right. When I first started posting on the old version of the forum it would not take my full name so I used my initials. I added a signature soon after (when I found out how to) that gave, and still does, my full name. I have had an avatar that is me since this version of the Forum allowed it. I think what most people are saying is that everyone is entitled to their view but just remember how you write that down may look and perhaps change the wording slightly. This sentence is not aimed at you Penelope. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, bridiem said: But that works both ways - people also take offence too easily at being disagreed with. Well, if that is the case, Bridiem, then maybe they should not post at all. If somebody is posting anything on line, it is not a good thing to be too sensitive. Speaking personally, I have no problems at all if someone disagrees with me. I expect it, and would be astonished if they didn't. That is what constitutes a good, lively discussion in my opinion, and is the whole point of having this forum in the first place. What a boring one it would be if we were all in total agreement with each other. But I want their disagreement to be well reasoned, and expressed in a civil manner. Not simply someone saying words to the effect that the poster is an idiot or a fool for saying such a thing, or that they are just plain wrong, without expanding the argument. Edited February 17, 2018 by Fonty 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 43 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said: Well, Anna, I have always done that. May I add that posters are human beings with feelings, too. As are dancers. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Fonty said: Well, if that is the case, Bridiem, then maybe they should not post at all. If somebody is posting anything on line, it is not a good thing to be too sensitive. Speaking personally, I have no problems at all if someone disagrees with me. I expect it, and would be astonished if they didn't. That is what constitutes a good, lively discussion in my opinion, and is the whole point of having this forum in the first place. What a boring one it would be if we were all in total agreement with each other. But I want their disagreement to be well reasoned, and expressed in a civil manner. Not simply someone saying words to the effect that the poster is an idiot or a fool for saying such a thing, or that they are just plain wrong, without expanding the argument. I quite agree, Fonty. But I have to say that I can't recall ever seeing criticism like that on this forum - at least not about ballet matters. Edited February 17, 2018 by bridiem 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proballetdancer Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 This place is positively Soviet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 minute ago, proballetdancer said: This place is positively Soviet. hahahahhahahhahahhahaha!!!! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 23 hours ago, bridiem said: I'm getting a bit tired of the idea that 'independence of thought' is somehow discouraged on this forum - I think that is both incorrect and offensive to those of us who post regularly. I feel no pressure whatsoever to either withhold a negative view or state a falsely positive view. But if anyone expresses an opinion, especially if they do so in uncompromising language, they must be prepared for others to challenge them, to engage with what they've said. This isn't just a site where people can say whatever they want and expect everyone to agree with them; it's a site for discussion, sometimes disagreement, engagement. Posters of every opinion must have the courage of their conviction, otherwise don't post on a public forum. I'm delighted bridiem is more than happy to express her opinions: I always read her posts with great interest, admiring her experience, insight, independence and generosity, both in what she posts and in her many ‘likes’. But an issue being raised on this thread is that some posters have expressed a concern that they feel a little constrained when it comes to making more critical comments. Whilst I fully agree that posters should have the courage of their convictions, I do think it is reasonable to ask what more can the Forum do to encourage such expression. Here the Forum is not simply the stated policies but the culture as shaped by everyone posting. I'm sorry if bridiem sees such a question as in effect a slur on the Forum and offensive to regular posters. Part of a plea being made is, I think, for posters to be slow to take offence so it strikes me as a little ironic that inviting reflection on encouraging expression is perhaps considered offensive. I've found this thread thought provoking and in musing about the Forum’s evolving culture and collective responsibility have considered whether my own posts might have been more critically incisive. I mentioned earlier about overuse of 'wonderful' and 'fabulous' and suggesting some self-rationing. The Acceptable Use Policy deals with offensive posts and I don't imagine anyone sets out to be deliberately offensive. But might there be a place for seeking to limit the times offence is taken? For my part I tend to be wary of posts which state I find x offensive. It is the reasoning behind the taking of offence which is much more compelling and can stimulate debate: when that reasoning is set out, stating offence has been taken becomes superfluous. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 1 hour ago, JohnS said: I'm delighted bridiem is more than happy to express her opinions: I always read her posts with great interest, admiring her experience, insight, independence and generosity, both in what she posts and in her many ‘likes’. But an issue being raised on this thread is that some posters have expressed a concern that they feel a little constrained when it comes to making more critical comments. Whilst I fully agree that posters should have the courage of their convictions, I do think it is reasonable to ask what more can the Forum do to encourage such expression. Here the Forum is not simply the stated policies but the culture as shaped by everyone posting. I'm sorry if bridiem sees such a question as in effect a slur on the Forum and offensive to regular posters. Part of a plea being made is, I think, for posters to be slow to take offence so it strikes me as a little ironic that inviting reflection on encouraging expression is perhaps considered offensive. I've found this thread thought provoking and in musing about the Forum’s evolving culture and collective responsibility have considered whether my own posts might have been more critically incisive. I mentioned earlier about overuse of 'wonderful' and 'fabulous' and suggesting some self-rationing. The Acceptable Use Policy deals with offensive posts and I don't imagine anyone sets out to be deliberately offensive. But might there be a place for seeking to limit the times offence is taken? For my part I tend to be wary of posts which state I find x offensive. It is the reasoning behind the taking of offence which is much more compelling and can stimulate debate: when that reasoning is set out, stating offence has been taken becomes superfluous. Thank you, JohnS. I'm aware that I 'like' a lot; there's a lot to like. in fact sometimes the system tells me that I've reached the limit of 'likes' so I can't use it again for now. I find that MEAN! Anyway, at the risk of repeating myself, I do agree that posters should be slow to take offence, both in terms of opinions with which they disagree and in terms of people disagreeing with them. I wouldn't support self-rationing of the use of appreciative terms. I think that sometimes 'wonderful' is the only sensible response in the aftermath of a great performance. If more critical analysis follows, that's great, but not compulsory. All input - overflowing enthusiasm, critical analysis, negative reaction - is welcome. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I think we're going round in circles now, to be honest; so much so that I've lost track of who wants what and why. As Moderators, all we do is enforce rules to which every single person agrees when they sign up. Those rules include being respectful. This is not rocket science and we shouldn't have to explain over and over again what is meant by this. As in real life, we have all sorts of personalities posting here; the peacemakers, the very knowledgeable, the new ballet fans, the parents of dancers and aspiring dancers, "nice" people, people who love a jolly good debate and those who can do without drama and controversy. The forum is a place for ALL of us to discuss ballet *as long as those discussions do not breach forum rules*. If they do, expect them to be reported and hidden. That's not "Soviet", we are not "Commissars", it simply keeps the Forum running. With my non-Moderator hat on, I say this - don't like the rules? Feel free to go elsewhere. Nobody forces us to stick around and post here. If you are here expecting validation, automatic respect, or acknowledgement, you may be disappointed. With regards to freedom of speech and people taking offence - yes, it is everyone's right to speak freely (within forum rules). If you wish to criticise a dancer, make a controversial comment and so on, that's your right. But it's also someone else's right to disagree with you or even take offence. It's also everyone's right to praise, "gush" and agree. It's our right to use the word "wonderful" twenty times in the same sentence, or to simply omit mention of something or someone we don't like. Don't agree with that? Say so, respectfully. Use the Report function if something is highly offensive to you; if the post breaches AUP, it will be hidden - if not, it won't be, but we as Mods will discuss it and let you know either way. Now can we PLEASE get on with discussing ballet? 23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 A small addition to the above - if you do post a highly critical post, have the courage of your convictions and post it with your full name, not a pseudonym Dave Morgan 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, zxDaveM said: A small addition to the above - if you do post a highly critical post, have the courage of your convictions and post it with your full name, not a pseudonym Dave Morgan Indeed - also one of our rules. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Well said, Anna. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I have only just realised what this thread is about. There are two aspects of posting which I have difficulty with on here - even though I appreciate why they happen: that it is not possible for people who may be involved in a particular issue to "tell it as they see it" because they would be contravening the rules; and that we are sometimes offered what reads like an "official line" on an issue by an anonymous contributor Otherwise, I'm cool with all the differences of view. The more substantive the comments on productions/performances the better informed I feel in my own ballet-watching. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 This comment is not directed at any particular individual, so I want to state straight away that I am not having a go at anyone in particular. I think this has been an interesting discussion, which may have run its course, I don't know. However, in the past, when a topic has been going on for a while, there has been a tendency for various people to come on and start posting that it is getting dull, people are repeating themselves, can people stop posting here now and concentrate on something else, and so on. . It has always puzzled me why anyone would do that. There is no compulsion to read anything on here. Sure, a thread may get to the stage where nobody has anything else to say on the subject, but if so, it will die out naturally. There is no need for people who have no further interest to come on and say so. There may be others who still have a view they want to express, and providing they are not breaking the rules they should be allowed to do so. If you don't want to read any more about a topic because you think it has become boring.....just stop reading the thread. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Everyone has that choice except the mods, of course, Fonty. We still have to read everything, whether we want to or not. That is what we do. I am writing this post not only as Chair of the Forum Committee, but also as an individual who loves ballet and posts up as such. I would just like to remind everyone out there of what the moderators do. What we do is do our best in what are often very difficult and even unpleasant circumstances. Between us, we give up our private time to run this forum, 24/7 x 365. We moderate on Christmas day, on Easter day, on New Year’s Day, and on every other day, whether we are sick or healthy, on holiday abroad or at work. This weekend was my 28th wedding anniversary weekend, and do you know how I spent much of it? Reading all the comments on this thread, and on some others as well, and with the moderators, dealing with various reports we received, and private messages. May I please remind everyone that we consider each and every report and PM and email individually. Each one of these incidents is logged and then discussed between us and action then taken. This all takes time….a lot of time when there is a thread like this that elicits so much emotion. We do all of this with pleasure, because we love sharing our love of ballet with all of you. It is with deep disappointment and anger, therefore, to report that we received some very nasty messages and reports over the weekend, impugning us and our ability to run the forum to the standards certain people think aren’t being met. We are always very happy to receive constructive suggestions about how to improve things because, like every other human being, we don’t always get things right, despite our best efforts. However, I can tell you all now, that anyone who writes to us and swears at us, or is excessively nasty, will be immediately suspended or banned from this site. We put up with a lot of things running the forum, but we are NOT prepared to put up with that. If you are angry or unhappy about something, fair enough, but please just put your points to us in a civilised manner and we will respond in kind. To the great majority of our members, thank you for all your posts and comments about all aspects of dance, for that after all is what this forum is supposed to be about. 29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Maybe you need to put this in a separate Sticker, Sim, so it doesn't get lost? Sorry to hear you have received nasty messages. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I am sure that I speak for the vast majority when I say many thanks to the moderators who work so hard voluntarily on this forum. I have frequently just skimmed read threads recently for various reasons and I am in awe of those who somehow have to find the time to read everything. And am saddened and disgusted to read about the unpleasantness that you moderators have received. It's really not on. Thanks from me anyway. 24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 12 minutes ago, hfbrew said: I am sure that I speak for the vast majority when I say many thanks to the moderators who work so hard voluntarily on this forum. I have frequently just skimmed read threads recently for various reasons and I am in awe of those who somehow have to find the time to read everything. And am saddened and disgusted to read about the unpleasantness that you moderators have received. It's really not on. Thanks from me anyway. That's so kind, hfbrew, thank you on behalf of the Mods. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 43 minutes ago, Sim said: It is with deep disappointment and anger, therefore, to report that we received some very nasty messages and reports over the weekend, impugning us and our ability to run the forum to the standards certain people think aren’t being met. I'm appalled to hear this Sim. I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who volunteer to look after this site, without which we would all be worse off. We are all in your debt and, please, don't let a tiny minority distress you to the point you can't go on (as has happened elsewhere). We are all sincerely grateful. And happy anniversary, by the way! To those who sent such upsetting messages, cut it out. 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I am deeply shocked and saddened to read the above posts and would add my thanks to the work of all moderators. I was aware but only vaguely of the heavy workload but I'm afraid I had absolutely no idea that you might be subject to such abuse and that is truly appalling. I can only apologise if posts I've made have contributed in any way to the unpleasantness you have faced. I offer Sim belated congratulations on her wedding anniversary and do hope that at least some of the weekend was a proper celebration. Simon Smith 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I too am sorry to hear that you have received such abuse. This forum is so helpful to everyone whether newbie parent or oldie teacher - I'm the latter. It keeps us up to date with things we might not find out about in other ways. I prefer to remain anonymous, (although some friends from real life who are members do know my identity). This is merely to protect pupils, it is such a small world that if I give to much detail I would be identified and then so might my pupils. So please everyone, show respect for the moderators, for opinions that might contradict your own, and let's not fall prey to the mob rule that is evident elsewhere on social media. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmie Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Sim said: ...This all takes time….a lot of time when there is a thread like this that elicits so much emotion. We do all of this with pleasure, because we love sharing our love of ballet with all of you. It is with deep disappointment and anger, therefore, to report that we received some very nasty messages and reports over the weekend, impugning us and our ability to run the forum to the standards certain people think aren’t being met... Thank-you so much to all the mods for the hard-work, and from a personal point of view, making it my favourite place on the internet . Re the messages, I am both disappointed and astonished . 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharon Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I'm really sorry to hear that the Moderators were subjected to abuse and angry messages. But I'm not entirely surprised that it happened tbh. This particular thread had become very charged - posts full of anger, accusations, or irrationally defensive remarks, and was getting repetitive with the 'peacemakers' making no headway.... Contacting the Moderators and attacking them from the safety of your home on a keyboard - is just a childish nasty way to deal with your feelings. To the Moderators, all you ballet loving members and especially the peacemakers, I enjoy reading all your posts whether I agree or not. An interesting discussion on ballet with different opinions is better than chocolate - so thank you all. 🤗 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi'smom Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 It is inconceivable to me that the fantastic people who give up their time to run this forum are met with anything other than gratitude! As a complete ballet novice mom (something I still consider myself very much to be although I did to my delight score 100% on one of those silly Facebook 'how well do you know ballet?' quizzes so something must be going in! 😉) this forum has seen my through the ups and downs of the life of hapless ballet parent, from dd looking at associates at age 8, through lower school auditions to upper school auditions and everything in between (and almost certainly beyond!) Thank you really most sincerely moderators! You have my endless admiration! 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Really sorry, Moderators. That is quite intolerable. We all appreciate what you do. The veneer of civilisation is always thin: it takes work to keep it in place. Evidence of what happens when people give up trying, is all around. I really appreciate this space for civilised discussion ( and also for fun and shared enthusiasm) and long may it continue. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I want to add my voice to those who have expressed thanks to the moderators. I am sad to hear that some of our number, who benefit from the goodwill and hard work of these people, have abused their position and felt they can make remarks which one moderator now finds so intolerable she has to speak out. What would happen if no one wanted to do this onerous task in the future? Perhaps a good thing that will result from this thread is that we may at times pause and read through our comments before we post them. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneMarriott Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Timmie said: Thank-you so much to all the mods for the hard-work, and from a personal point of view, making it my favourite place on the internet . Re the messages, I am both disappointed and astonished . Alas I am not astonished. It is one of the reasons Bruce M. found running the original Balletco too unrewarding to continue. The unpleasantness revealed on the Internet makes me fearful of a future without civility or self-control. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) As someone one who has run comment sections on a political blog for quite a time, I am hugely sympathetic to and appreciative of the moderators, even when I disagree strongly with some of their moderation (though I'm sure they disagree among themselves just as strongly) It's a very difficult job to get even roughly right, and there are a lot of things to balance. In the end of the day it's impossible to keep everyone happy: generally you end up leaving pretty much everyone unhappy when you have to intervene except in the most clear-cut cases of abuse. Edited February 19, 2018 by Colman 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 What a dreadful way to behave! I think all the mods do a wonderful job and they don’t deserve such treatment. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_New Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I totally agree, Fiz - and with all the comments above. The moderators do a great job, which is greatly appreciated. Jacky 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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