Snowflake - no, not another Nutcracker review

[penelopesimpson]

Goodness me, aren't we going round in circles, here?  Yes, there is a difference between critique and criticism but are we implying that criticism can never be voiced and that only critique is acceptable?

 

I appreciate a lot of this is aimed at me (and I'm still standing!), but the irony is that if you read my original posts, they are surely entirely within acceptable boundaries.

 

It would be worth taking the time to go carefully through this thread and see what it is that is apparently so offensive.  All I am doing (and I will keep doing it despite the temp dropping to zero), is standing up for the right to give my opinion.  It has become enormously cliquey on here which is a shame, but isn't going to give me sleepless night.

[bridiem]

1 minute ago, penelopesimpson said:

Goodness me, aren't we going round in circles, here?  Yes, there is a difference between critique and criticism but are we implying that criticism can never be voiced and that only critique is acceptable?

 

I appreciate a lot of this is aimed at me (and I'm still standing!), but the irony is that if you read my original posts, they are surely entirely within acceptable boundaries.

 

It would be worth taking the time to go carefully through this thread and see what it is that is apparently so offensive.  All I am doing (and I will keep doing it despite the temp dropping to zero), is standing up for the right to give my opinion.  It has become enormously cliquey on here which is a shame, but isn't going to give me sleepless night.

 

None of my comments have been 'aimed at' you, penelopesimpson. This is a discussion!

[RuthE]

Mine neither - in fact I think I've directly agreed with you twice.

[RobR]

Nor me, Penelope. 

 

I had hoped that any BCF member who has read my two posts in this thread,  particularly the fourth paragraph of my post from yesterday (top of page 2) in conjunction with posts in other earlier threads would understand exactly what I (and some others) are concerned about. 

 

I make no criticism of you or any BCF member and merely posted to express what I perceived to be a proper concern regarding personal remarks posted about dancers, either specific or implied, that I believed were inappropriate in this day and age. 

 

[penelopesimpson]

2 hours ago, RobR said:

Nor me, Penelope. 

 

I had hoped that any BCF member who has read my two posts in this thread,  particularly the fourth paragraph of my post from yesterday (top of page 2) in conjunction with posts in other earlier threads would understand exactly what I (and some others) are concerned about. 

 

I make no criticism of you or any BCF member and merely posted to express what I perceived to be a proper concern regarding personal remarks posted about dancers, either specific or implied, that I believed were inappropriate in this day and age. 

 

Could you possibly be specific?  And is it 'appropriate' to judge somebody else's perception as inappropriate?  I don't know about this day and age - sounds positively Victorian to me!

As you asked, I did re-read your post and it seems to me that what you did was to lob a rather indiscriminate bomb that, without giving concrete examples, insinuated that posters were being unkind in the manner of their critique.

As a free-thinker utterly opposed to group-think, I took exception and have continued to argue the case for honest points of view - all, of course, within the bounds of website guidelines.  I was particularly upset by your suggestion that critical comments regarding such elements as costume, should be disallowed.

It may be that the debate that has ensued has made people rethink what sort of forum they would like.  I sense that there is a strong element who would be happier if this were a fan club but there are also those like myself who, to quote Fonty, are open-mouthed in astonishment at the suggestion of self-censorship along the lines you suggest.  Some may think it doesn't really matter as long as they can continue to discuss the minute details of this step or that leap.  However, there are many of us less interested in the technicalities, although delighted to learn, but who prefer a wider discusssion.

 

Personally I have not detected any drift towards bad manners or poor behaviour and I wonder what lay behind your post.  Perhaps it would have been helpful if you had been more specific about posts which had caused your concern.  

Edited February 16, 2018 by penelopesimpson

[MAB]

On ‎15‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 13:21, RobR said:

What did concern me were remarks suggesting that a particular dancer might have owed his casting to having a ‘pretty face’ and the suggestions that young dancers wanting to whistle blow on treatment they found onerous should have failed to identify themselves. 

 

RobR couldn't have been clearer regarding the posts that concern him. 

 

Btw the poster that wrote inappropriately concerning Matthew Ball's looks and those posters that were unsympathetic to the plight of the ENB dancers and those here that support them, have not contributed to this thread at all.

[Anna C]

It's all very well being "a free-thinker utterly opposed to group-think" but that doesn't mean that fairness, constructive criticism and sometimes even saying nothing is or should be the opposite of that (and therefore only worthy of "sheep").  I was once told very sneeringly that I was "too nice", but I don't take that as anything to be ashamed of.  Nor does it mean I'm not a "free thinker".  

 

What it does mean is that I think about the effects my words may have, on human beings with feelings, before I speak, or press "post".   

[LinMM]

I more or less agree Anna C but sometimes it is hard to decide exactly what is appropriate to post on a public forum.

For example there are occasions when I might joke in person with friends about something connected to a performance but probably wouldn't post as people could take it the wrong way.

its that scenario that goes right back to childhood where it's perfectly okay for X to make a bit of a personal comment about you but definitely not okay for Y to make it......because you don't have the same relationship with X and Y. 

 

For or example a friend and I used to get into giggles about the size of Nureyev's cloaks .....once hysterically so whilst standing to watch a performance of Giselle. It must have been most annoying actually to people near us but we both collapsed in a heap( well nearly) when this particular cloak ( which we had already joked about the possibilities of beforehand) was simply enormous!! It was a silly private thing between us but would never have mentioned it on a forum. ( Also his bunch of lilies seemed a bit over the top too that night) 

 

So maybe some things should just stay private sometimes ....particularly if as in the above instance it doesn't really add anything useful for people to know......well other than did Nureyev enjoy out cloaking other dancers!!!

[Jan McNulty]

I think most of us don't realise how we come across "in print".  If you are reading the written word you cannot hear someone's tone of voice, see their facial expressions or body language.

 

Some people come across as more fluffy than others (but may not be in person), some harsher (but maybe not in person)...

 

Many years ago I worked with a truly gentle man who was incredibly kind and caring, everyone genuinely liked him and thought he was lovely.  However he could destroy people in print and I know of at least one person who was reduced to tears by a memo she received from him.  Another person was universally disliked for being a bully but I found out by accident that he and his wife invited another colleague who was on his own to Christmas Dinner every year.  When the other gentleman wouldn't come they used to take a dinner to him.

 

In Swan Lake and Don Q I personally do not count fouettés and if I was aware that there were less than 32 performed I wouldn't even bother to mention it because to me one 30 second single step sequence does not make a performance.  I may mention if someone gave a sequence that was truly spectacular but equally I may not.

[Lizbie1]

LinMM, I don't think anyone could object to your stories, the way you tell them!

[penelopesimpson]

3 hours ago, MAB said:

 

RobR couldn't have been clearer regarding the posts that concern him. 

 

Btw the poster that wrote inappropriately concerning Matthew Ball's looks and those posters that were unsympathetic to the plight of the ENB dancers and those here that support them, have not contributed to this thread at all.

As it is not clear to me, then I can hardly agree that 'RobR couldn't have been clearer.'  That would be why I asked for a clarification rather than a general catch-all indictment.

So much judgement going on - and all in the cause (wonderful irony) of being nice!  'The person who wrote inappropriately' implies that this poster has now been judged and found guilty.  I saw the comment, probably wouldn't have made it myself, but so much fuss.  Cannot comment on the ENB situation as I have neither knowledge or involvement.

[Jan McNulty]

13 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

As it is not clear to me, then I can hardly agree that 'RobR couldn't have been clearer.'  That would be why I asked for a clarification rather than a general catch-all indictment.

So much judgement going on - and all in the cause (wonderful irony) of being nice!  'The person who wrote inappropriately' implies that this poster has now been judged and found guilty.  I saw the comment, probably wouldn't have made it myself, but so much fuss.  Cannot comment on the ENB situation as I have neither knowledge or involvement.

 

What is wrong with being nice?  You can be both nice and objective.  

[taxi4ballet]

A good friend of mine is the mother of a dancer who is mentioned with increasing regularity in various threads on this forum. Before posting, perhaps it is worth bearing in mind whether one would criticise a dancer's performance to them (or their mum) face-to-face. If it would cause upset or offence, then perhaps any comments might be re-worded in a more tactful way. Criticism can be a positive thing, but it can also be extremely hurtful and taken to heart.

[LinMM]

Well it may be worth remembering that even those most legitimately free to "criticise" individual dancers ....their coaches and teachers ....do so in private! 

So here we do have a responsibility to be a little careful in how we express our views about dancers ......which I think most people are anyway.

I only saw ONE post on the Giselle thread for example which I think was a bit near the mark and there were quite a few posts there in the end!!

 

[loveclassics]

On 15/02/2018 at 13:18, RuthE said:

Very much so.

I didn't see this performance but I do remember reading about a general rehearsal in which the ribbons on Mitzi Kaspar's dress caught on her chair, leading her to take it with her when she arose and started dancing.  That was way back when, 2002-4 approximately (when the role was being danced by Marianella Nunez).  If this is still happening I'm amazed that either the chair/dress hasn't been altered in the interim!

 

Linda

[bridiem]

11 minutes ago, loveclassics said:

I didn't see this performance but I do remember reading about a general rehearsal in which the ribbons on Mitzi Kaspar's dress caught on her chair, leading her to take it with her when she arose and started dancing.  That was way back when, 2002-4 approximately (when the role was being danced by Marianella Nunez).  If this is still happening I'm amazed that either the chair/dress hasn't been altered in the interim!

 

Linda

 

Oh dear!! But this was a different problem, in fact - it was Princess Louise (I think) and part of her dress/bustle was too long/loopy and the dancer's leg got caught in it every time she tried to dance. (Completely off topic, but this reminds me of when I saw Wall and Seymour in Mayerling in 1978 and Seymour's dress got badly torn in the frenetic last pas de deux, so she had to keep pushing swathes of material over her shoulder and arm in order to try and prevent herself from falling over it all. She did an amazing job!).

[loveclassics]

Thanks for the update, Bridiem.  I never saw the performances quoted so wasn't sure what the problem was.  But it does illustrate how difficult it must be to combine the dramatic requirements for historically accurate costumes with the need for dancers to move freely and incorporate the often gymnastic demands of a choreographer like MacMillan.

 

Linda

[JohnS]

On 14/02/2018 at 23:43, Jamesrhblack said:

... but I am occasionally concerned that anything that is not just what is liked ... seems to lead to potential acrimony

 

On 15/02/2018 at 09:08, penelopesimpson said:

Well, well.  When you read on a discussion forum that 'if you can't say something nice, it's better to say nothing,' there's only one action to take:

Exit stage left - followed by a bear!

 

On 15/02/2018 at 10:41, Sim said:

The last thing that we as moderators want (and we have said this many times) is for this to become a fan site.  That's why we call it a forum.  I am all for everyone being able to say exactly what they think....and in this snowflake world that is becoming less and less possible or tolerated.  So please everyone, keep your impressions coming, both positive and negative;  as long as you all respect each other, and keep within our Acceptable Use Policy, all opinions are very welcome here.  And please give each other some slack;  as was pointed out above, what is said in writing can sound very different from how it is meant to sound.  Finally, remember that we are all equally passionate about the art form, and this will lead to deep and differing opinions all round.  

 

I recognise this thread has become more than a little fractious.  The discussion has also impacted on other threads where some posts suggest comments have been constrained in case of triggering censure.  Jamesrhblack's post from this thread captures that concern not to offend.

 

If posters do feel they need to be circumspect to such a degree that is indeed sad and the Forum will be poorer, as highlighted in penelopesimpson's telling post.

 

Sim's post is a clear statement of what should be, although I would not wish to see any diminution of critical comment in response to 'this snowflake world' other than respecting social norms which as far as I'm concerned predate references to snowflakes.

 

But in light of the debate on this thread and concerns expressed on other threads where posters are wary of making critical comment, it seems to me that we should do more to encourage expression of independence of thought.  So despite the difficulties of this debate, if the outcome is a healthier, more open debate where people feel more able to express their views, positive and negative, that would be most welcome. 

[bridiem]

I'm getting a bit tired of the idea that 'independence of thought' is somehow discouraged on this forum - I think that is both incorrect and offensive to those of us who post regularly. I feel no pressure whatsoever to either withhold a negative view or state a falsely positive view. But if anyone expresses an opinion, especially if they do so in uncompromising language, they must be prepared for others to challenge them, to engage with what they've said. This isn't just a site where people can say whatever they want and expect everyone to agree with them; it's a site for discussion, sometimes disagreement, engagement. Posters of every opinion must have the courage of their conviction, otherwise don't post on a public forum.

[penelopesimpson]

14 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

What is wrong with being nice?  You can be both nice and objective.  

I agree and believe that is what I have always done.

 

[penelopesimpson]

2 hours ago, JohnS said:

 

 

 

I recognise this thread has become more than a little fractious.  The discussion has also impacted on other threads where some posts suggest comments have been constrained in case of triggering censure.  Jamesrhblack's post from this thread captures that concern not to offend.

 

If posters do feel they need to be circumspect to such a degree that is indeed sad and the Forum will be poorer, as highlighted in penelopesimpson's telling post.

 

Sim's post is a clear statement of what should be, although I would not wish to see any diminution of critical comment in response to 'this snowflake world' other than respecting social norms which as far as I'm concerned predate references to snowflakes.

 

But in light of the debate on this thread and concerns expressed on other threads where posters are wary of making critical comment, it seems to me that we should do more to encourage expression of independence of thought.  So despite the difficulties of this debate, if the outcome is a healthier, more open debate where people feel more able to express their views, positive and negative, that would be most welcome. 

Well, hallelujah!  

Yes, the mods have been clear about encouraging independence of thinking and expression of views but your post surely acknowleges that there is a creeping problem?

 

I don't mind standing out there on my own but it is telling the number of private messages of support I have had from posters unwilling to publicly say that I might have a point for fear of getting cold-shouldered.  That is not, by the way, saying that I am right about everything or even anything, just a fear that what was a lovely forum has now become enormously cliquey.  By way of an experiment yesterday I posted some descriptive comment that more or less mirrored that of another poster - and got not a single acknowledgement!  Being frozen out doesn't particularly worry me but it is surely all a bit Chalet School as was yesterday's mutual back-slapping!  

 

I was interested by the post above whose friend is mother to a dancer.  I do not think we should be censoring our comments because dancers may or may not read this forum.  If you are in the theatrical world, you learn that reviews, good and bad, are part of the game and you make your choice as to whether or not you read them.  To suggest that a Forum dedicated to ballet (not just dancers) should be adapted in this way would lead nowhere fast.  As the Moderators and others have made clear, this is not a fan club, it is a site for those who love the world of ballet and who wish to air their views with likeminded souls.  One of the things that I have always liked about Ballet Forum is its civility and graciousness which has made it a happy place to indulge ones passions.  That is why I have fought back about what I perceived as a creeping self-censorship.  Surely it is safe to assume that most posters love ballet and the beautiful dancers who give us so much joy, and would never wish to hurt them in any way?  But we post when we see a performance that takes our breath away and, equally, we should post when maybe things are not quite as wonderful as they might be.

I had more or less made up my mind to disappear after yesterday but I will keep looking in, even though it does appear that my views are not respected.  Disagreeing is absolutely fine but the obvious disrespect is uncomfortable even for those of us prepared to tough it out.  Friendly is surely better?

[alison]

3 hours ago, JohnS said:

Sim's post is a clear statement of what should be, although I would not wish to see any diminution of critical comment in response to 'this snowflake world' other than respecting social norms which as far as I'm concerned predate references to snowflakes.

 

Precisely.  And I, for one, would like to get back to discussing ballet and dance

[Rachelm]

On 2/14/2018 at 13:40, RobR said:

As a longtime BCF follower I have, recently, become concerned about what I perceive to be a small, but significant, change in the general tone of remarks made in some of the more recent threads.

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree, and have noticed this myself, particularly this week, so much so that I contacted admin about it. I'm relieved it's not just me that has noticed this, as I thought maybe I was going mad!

 

Personally I feel that it is not criticism that is causing an issue, but the general squabbling that can ensue. I find that I have to wade through defensive comments that become less and less to do with the topic of the thread, to get to the interesting reviews and comments. Perhaps people can take up individual issues they have with what another member has said through personal messages, rather than on the board.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Rachelm

[alison]

Oh, it has been noticed, all right.

[Timmie]

I think a bit of steam-letting is healthy enough and I'd much prefer it on a dedicated thread such as this rather than on an actual 'performances seen' thread . Personally, if someone says something I disagree with I'll mention it once or twice and then stop. Internet arguments are essentially pointless and we should rely on the mods to step in if comments go too far.

 

Edited to add: by arguments I don't mean discussions on points of technique etc., just general bickering.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Timmie
qualification of comment

[taxi4ballet]

1 hour ago, penelopesimpson said:

I was interested by the post above whose friend is mother to a dancer.  I do not think we should be censoring our comments because dancers may or may not read this forum.  If you are in the theatrical world, you learn that reviews, good and bad, are part of the game and you make your choice as to whether or not you read them.  To suggest that a Forum dedicated to ballet (not just dancers) should be adapted in this way would lead nowhere fast. 

Are you the parent of a dancer, penelope? Because I am. My view is that if you wouldn't feel comfortable criticising someone face-to-face, then don't hide behind an anonymous forum to say it either. Theatrical reviews are one thing, but unkind remarks from internet randoms are something else.

 

Yes, the forum is dedicated to ballet, but ballet would not exist without the dancers, would it?

[bridiem]

1 hour ago, penelopesimpson said:

By way of an experiment yesterday I posted some descriptive comment that more or less mirrored that of another poster - and got not a single acknowledgement! 

 

 

It may (or may not) amuse you to know that the reason I didn't like that post of yours was because it was entirely unlike your usual posts - it was short and rather bland and, as you say, merely mirrored another post. I should perhaps have guessed that it wasn't a genuine post!

[Fonty]

On 16/02/2018 at 12:25, penelopesimpson said:

'And that would leave us with...what, exactly? 

Critiquing a production can surely, legitimately, involve comments on casting, costume, appearance and performance?

Ballet is a visual medium and the aesthetics can often be crucial to how one feels about what one has seen. 

 

Precisely my feeling, too.  

 

On 16/02/2018 at 12:25, penelopesimpson said:

'I think posters on this site are all sophisticated enough to understand that remarking on a costume does not imply criticism of a dancer. 

 

 

You would think so, but after some of the comments made recently, I am beginning to wonder.  

 

[Fonty]

On 16/02/2018 at 12:25, penelopesimpson said:

 

As to appearance, I enjoy commenting on how someone looks in their role.  I thought Akane was meltingly exquisite in Giselle and admire Ryochi's immense physicality.  Edward Watson as the Indian in the Arthur Pita work was a stunning creature.  One is hardly going to comment that a dancer has a big nose or anything remotely personal, but dancers can be exquisite creatures that take my breath away and I like to comment to that effect.

 

 

Of course not, and in any case, the size of their nose has no bearing on their dancing. But by the same token, we should be allowed to make comments about their physique, which might make them look less than exquisite in certain outfits.  Obviously, saying dancer A's costume emphasises their big a**e would be rude, but surely it is perfectly acceptable to say it doesn't flatter their extremely muscular physique.  Likewise, if a female is wearing ugly shoes which spoil the look of the pointe work, then we should be free to say so.  

 

Unfortunately, the way things are going, I feel that if I did say something critical about their overall look, then somebody would take exception, there would be a multitude of comments about how the poor dancer can't help the size of their thighs or their bunions, that I should remember that they have feelings as well etc etc.  And before you know where you are, the moderators have closed yet another entertaining and interesting thread, because someone took a dislike to something posted that was less than gushing enthusiasm.  Well, dancers are picked for training in the first place because of their looks: the shape of their bodies, the length and shape of their limbs, their overall proportions and so on.  And I am sorry if their mother gets upset if there are critical remarks about their child's appearance, but I am sure it is nothing that the dancer themselves hasn't heard already many times throughout their training.  

Edited February 17, 2018 by Fonty

[Anna C]

Moderators don't close threads on a whim, you know.  Usually it's a last resort because the thread has gone irredeemably off topic, breached AUP or turned into a flame war.  As it says in the Forum rules, we aren't responsible for what forum members post; all we do is (voluntarily, I might add) enforce the rules so that the forum can keep going.   

 

In my *personal* capacity as a member, if people think it's bad here, I suggest taking a look at Mumsnet to see what goes on elsewhere on the internet.   Quite often, anything goes - and it's not as fun as you might think, being un-"censored".

 

 

 

[Fonty]

3 minutes ago, Anna C said:

Moderators don't close threads on a whim, you know.  Usually it's a last resort because the thread has gone irredeemably off topic, breached AUP or turned into a flame war.  

 

 

I am a moderator of two websites myself.  I know why threads are closed, and I am not criticising the moderators for their actions.  It just seems to me that there are certain people on this forum that can be relied upon to inflame a situation, which results in thread closure, because they seem to get offended so easily.  

 

[bridiem]

2 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

I am a moderator of two websites myself.  I know why threads are closed, and I am not criticising the moderators for their actions.  It just seems to me that there are certain people on this forum that can be relied upon to inflame a situation, which results in thread closure, because they seem to get offended so easily.  

 

 

But that works both ways - people also take offence too easily at being disagreed with.

[taxi4ballet]

16 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

And I am sorry if their mother gets upset if there are critical remarks about their child's appearance, but I am sure it is nothing that the dancer themselves hasn't heard already many times throughout their training.  

Yes, the dancers have heard it all before. Thousands of times. But that doesn't make it right.

They are constantly being judged; continually made painfully aware of their shortcomings every single minute of every day, whether at dance school, at work in the studio, rehearsing, performing, wherever. They are rarely, if ever, happy with their own performance, and no wonder.