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Posh is as posh does


John Mallinson

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Now I would have said going to a spa or a casino is posh because of the expense involved. 

 

I see the findings as deeply disturbing, activities relating to the arts being regarded as somehow elitist seems to indicate a serious educational flaw, but sadly the findings don't surprise me.

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despite the prices of  tickets to even quite modest levels of kickball as well  ...

 

how ever it is about  'going  to ' not taking  part in ... 

Opera  in particular is seen as something that only happens at  expensive venues 

Edited by Nicola H
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Really interesting that there is a marked difference in perception between going to an art exhibition and visiting a museum. I wonder if 'going to the ballet ' and 'watching a dance performance ' would have had similar differences had the latter been included.

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The survey doesn't list classical music for some reason - presumably that would have been perceived as posh too. It's frustrating but in a way understandable, because ballet and opera are undeniably rarefied languages (or weird, to put it another way) and so for many people there will be an initial barrier to be overcome in perceiving them. Added to that the image of opera houses and the expense of (many) tickets at opera houses and it's no wonder people think it's only for a privileged few. (People never cease to be surprised at the low cost of the tickets I buy for ballet at the ROH - but many of the tickets at the ROH are way outside my reach.) I would have hoped that the work of BRB, ENB, NB, Matthew Bourne et al, and the small amount of TV, and the live screenings, would have done something to break down this perception. But I think that culture at the moment is very crude and immediate, and anything that takes a shift of mindset to appreciate is unlikely to fare well.

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A couple of people have mentioned the cost of tickets as a factor.  Some years ago Beyonce (or someone equivalent) was appearing at the Liverpool Arena and my then teenage niece was desperate to go till she found out the tickets were £122!!  As this was some years ago that was considerably more than a top price ballet ticket at ROH - and to sit in a huge arena with plastic seats!!!  My "theatre going" started with going to see bands as a young teenager but gradually expanded to see other shows and eventually ballet.  But I was seeing the bands in theatres not huge plastic seated arenas so I never saw theatres as posh and it was just a natural progression as I grew up (my parents weren't theatre goers).  With the advent of arena gigs (and pub music gigs) people who go to them do not necessarily have an opportunity to get acquainted with theatres and all the trappings that go with them.

 

I'm not sure how to address the imbalance but if (carrying on from another thread) Darcey Bussell and Ore Oduba persuade even one person to go and see a live performance they have done a good job.  13% of the population has far more opportunity to see ballet and dance than the rest of us.  We poor, plebeian Scousers have (if we are lucky) one week of quality ballet a year - no wonder people think it is posh!

 

I have always assumed that going to a casino is a very costly business, unless you have an iron self will to set yourself a low limit.

 

I also think that television "cheffy" programmes give the impression that all restaurants must be expensive and have 2 Michelin stars to be any good so perhaps that is why more people thing going to a restaurant is posh.

 

 

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I think it's a very complex and fascinating issue. We all have so many assumptions about things we don't know or understand. This is why education is so important. The BBC has an important remit as a public service provider, but we can't expect the BBC to be the sole instigator. Individual companies are doing their best to provide learning opportunities for young people, but there needs to be more joined up thinking and a unified strategy - I don't know much about the Arts Council but it must be stretched thinly across so many areas. As regards ballet, someone 'on high' needs to take this on.

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49 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

 

I have always assumed that going to a casino is a very costly business, unless you have an iron self will to set yourself a low limit.

 

 

 

I went into one in Reno (Little Las Vegas) many moons ago, with 20 bucks. Came out with 23 bucks, having drunk 5 beers and had 2 plates of food. Bargain! :-)

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54 minutes ago, zxDaveM said:

 

I went into one in Reno (Little Las Vegas) many moons ago, with 20 bucks. Came out with 23 bucks, having drunk 5 beers and had 2 plates of food. Bargain! :-)

 

As you probably know The Maryinsky has a Christmas season at Baden Baden every year and I've been several times, it also has a fabulously beautiful casino made famous by Dostoyevsky in 'The Gambler'.   As my knowledge of casinos is limited to James Bond, we turned up in evening dress and discovered only the croupiers wore dinner jackets so red faces for both of us, still it's a magnificent place to visit and I only lost twenty euros.

 

I suppose I think of such places as posh because in general you need considerable funds if you visit habitually and I equate being posh with having money.

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I think that money is only one aspect of perceived 'poshness'. As has been pointed out, tickets for gigs and musicals etc are very expensive now, and football season tickets (even for smaller clubs, for which I used to have one). The 'posh' thing is more about whether you'd feel comfortable going even if you could afford it. And unfortunately it seems that many people still don't feel that about ballet.

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13 hours ago, zxDaveM said:

 

I went into one in Reno (Little Las Vegas) many moons ago, with 20 bucks. Came out with 23 bucks, having drunk 5 beers and had 2 plates of food. Bargain! :-)

 

A friend of mine won enough in Las Vegas to cover all their spending money and part of the holiday!  I won the Grand National sweep once in work (in 36 years of trying) and had a winning bet 3 times when Red Rum (local hero) won.  I have never set foot in a betting shop or placed a bet myself (even though I have been to the races) - I left that to friends who knew how to do it!

 

Actually I always thought going to the races was a fairly minority interest until recent years when I have had the good/mis (depending on how you look at it) fortune to travel on Transpenine Trains on race days at York!!!  We've been squashed in like sardines and in had to be careful to duck as ladies walked past in giant hats!

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14 minutes ago, Jane said:

I’m considered posh by some work colleagues because I’ve never had a kebab 😂

 

hahahahahahahaha! 

That made me laugh out loud, literally. 

 

A kebab can measure how drunk you were when you bought it.

If you bought - you were pretty drunk.

If you enjoyed it, you were REALLY drunk

If you went back the next day for a repeat as it was so delicious, you were really, utterly wasted!

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On 2/11/2018 at 08:19, Odyssey said:

I know very little about football other than a season ticket costs a packet.  Perhaps if I had been questioned for this survey, I might have considered going to a football match posh.

 

 

I know that I'd much rather sit in a theatre watching people dance rather than watching a bunch of blokes running around a muddy field kicking a ball. If that makes me posh, then so be it!

 

I started watching ballet in 1976 when I was at university. I was also (and I still am) heavily into punk. I also like early music, sculpture, paintings (especially pre-raphaelite) and wrestling. I see myself as well rounded.

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On ‎11‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 08:10, bridiem said:

The survey doesn't list classical music for some reason - presumably that would have been perceived as posh too. It's frustrating but in a way understandable, because ballet and opera are undeniably rarefied languages (or weird, to put it another way) and so for many people there will be an initial barrier to be overcome in perceiving them.

 

On ‎11‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 10:59, bridiem said:

The 'posh' thing is more about whether you'd feel comfortable going even if you could afford it. And unfortunately it seems that many people still don't feel that about ballet.

 

Absolutely agree with this - and it's only going to get worse, with early exposure to, and opportunity/encouragement to participate in, the arts increasingly sidelined (a) in mainstream state education and (b) on mainstream television.

 

I was seen as "posh" at school in the 80s and 90s because I was from a culturally switched-on family, even though we had very little money.  My secondary school was terrible for music and dance, and if I hadn't had a mother who hunted down all the external extracurricular music and singing opportunities for me, I'm sure I wouldn't have benefited from them.  My generation now has children of secondary school age; some of those children will be growing up with second-generation cultural cluelessness, and they're a lot less likely to decide to go and see an opera or ballet out of the blue, when it's never been part of their world.

 

I see arts organisations working really hard with outreach programmes and so on, but there's such a gap now between what state- and privately-educated children have access to as a matter of course.  If you don't expose most young children to "high art" at an age when they've yet to form preconceptions or prejudices about it, can you blame them if they grow up considering it to be something only those with more money do, even if they are in a position to spend exactly the same on the night out?

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On 2/12/2018 at 13:47, RuthE said:

 

 

Absolutely agree with this - and it's only going to get worse, with early exposure to, and opportunity/encouragement to participate in, the arts increasingly sidelined (a) in mainstream state education and (b) on mainstream television.

 

I was seen as "posh" at school in the 80s and 90s because I was from a culturally switched-on family, even though we had very little money.  My secondary school was terrible for music and dance, and if I hadn't had a mother who hunted down all the external extracurricular music and singing opportunities for me, I'm sure I wouldn't have benefited from them.  My generation now has children of secondary school age; some of those children will be growing up with second-generation cultural cluelessness, and they're a lot less likely to decide to go and see an opera or ballet out of the blue, when it's never been part of their world.

 

I see arts organisations working really hard with outreach programmes and so on, but there's such a gap now between what state- and privately-educated children have access to as a matter of course.  If you don't expose most young children to "high art" at an age when they've yet to form preconceptions or prejudices about it, can you blame them if they grow up considering it to be something only those with more money do, even if they are in a position to spend exactly the same on the night out?


 and unfortunately  you can blame the teaching unions for this  ... 

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9 hours ago, Nicola H said:


 and unfortunately  you can blame the teaching unions for this  ... 

My brother-in-law and sister-in-law (both teachers - one state, one private) say it's down to the individual LEA as to where the money goes. Academy schools have to balance their own books, and are obliged to concentrate on essentials (core subjects) so they have to prioritise and would struggle to fund anything else. 

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21 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

My brother-in-law and sister-in-law (both teachers - one state, one private) say it's down to the individual LEA as to where the money goes. Academy schools have to balance their own books, and are obliged to concentrate on essentials (core subjects) so they have to prioritise and would struggle to fund anything else. 

amazing how  after the mid 80s strikes  very few extra curriculars got back up and running in some places ... 

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I was lucky,to have family and teachers who encouraged my interest in the arts. Very little in my school in the 50s so this encouragement was essential. All of the various arts organisations offer so much for children and I suppose it does rub off on some of those who attend. I think those of us with an interest in the arts have always been considered posh, there seems to be some idea that things like opera, ballet, music and art are too difficult to understand.  Mind you, seeing the capacity audiences at the ROH, National, RSC etc it's just as well that it's just us posh ones that go!

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Interesting topic. I do think that ballet in particular is viewed as posh in comparison with other dance genres even. Thinking about it, in the area where I live, the schools which are identified as primarily ballet schools that do a bit of other stuff tend to be located in the more affluent parts of our area, whereas the schools which are more general dance schools that do a bit of ballet are in the less well off areas, with the corresponding differences in clientele. Of course there are other factors at play, but I would say that there is a general perception in our locality that it's the "posh" dance schools that major on ballet.

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I used to attend a ballet class in one of the most deprived (and depraved :)) areas of Brum. Great class and several of the students went on to be professional ballet dancers. I've also done class in quite a posh area and in a very posh studio. When Elmhurst came to Brum, they moved into a very posh area.

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1 hour ago, trog said:

I used to attend a ballet class in one of the most deprived (and depraved :)) areas of Brum. Great class and several of the students went on to be professional ballet dancers. I've also done class in quite a posh area and in a very posh studio. When Elmhurst came to Brum, they moved into a very posh area.

Think the support from the Calthorpe Estate might explain why Elmhurst and it’s sixth form block are situated where they are within the posh bit of Birmingham. 

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