aileen Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Realistically, it's hard to meet a partner outside the company when you are working so many evenings plus long days and some of Saturday as well. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLOSS Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) The reality is that we none of us know whether what we have read is an accurate account of genuine problems within ENB or a story manufactured out of information which while factually correct has been carefully assembled to create a wholly inaccurate picture of the internal relationships within the company. We need to remember that coincidence and causality are two very different things but that fact is unlikely to stop a journalist in search of a good story from passing off a series of unconnected coincidences as having an obvious causal relationship. Just because events occur in a particular sequence does not mean that there is a genuine causal connection between them. I think that we need to remember the story published at the time when Muntagirov joined the RB about Kevin "poaching" him from ENB written by a journalist whose area of "expertise" was writing about show business celebrities. I am not attempting to gloss anything over. If there has been harassment or bullying that needs to be dealt with effectively whoever it is who has been engaged in such behaviour. Organisations not only need HR systems which address these behaviours adequately and effectively on paper but ones which are applied whenever such allegations are made whoever is involved. The dynamics of a small specialist division in any organisation is always altered by the presence of a new recruit and those dynamics will be greatly altered if not turned upside down if the newcomer is exceptionally talented. Some of his or her immediate colleagues may have their noses put out of joint by finding themselves displaced in the pecking order and not achieving the positions which they had thought were rightfully theirs. Something like that happened to David Blair when Nureyev appeared on the scene. But as far as the implied allegation of favoritism is concerned it seems to me that if Hernandez were not in a relationship with the director he would still be getting the roles and the billing which he receives at present because of his talent. It is not as if he always gets first nights or is being cast in roles for which he is manifestly unsuited. I do not know whether or not Hrnandez is given opportunities to appear as a guest with other companies and whether his opportunities are comparable to those offered to other dancers in the company.Something which Yonah Acosta is reported to have said in interview suggests that they are not. Research tells us that most people find their partners at their place of work and that research is generally concerned with people who work standard office hours and have ample opportunities to meet people outside the workplace. It comes as no surprise to discover that those who work unsociable hours in more confined self contained communities such as hospitals tend to find their partners in the workplace so why should anyone be surprised that dancers tend to find theirs in the workplace as well ? As far as the turnover of personnel at ENB is concerned it did appear to be higher than is usual at the end of last season but the reasons for it may have little or nothing to do with the director's management style. A company may expect to loose a few dancers each year for personal reasons which have nothing to do with the company or its management such as the wishes and needs of the dancer's partner or family not all of which can be met over long distances.Whether a dancer stays or leaves a company may have little to do with whether they are happy where they are working and everything to do with their partner's ability or willingness to move connected with the partner's family or employment. If a company recruits a large number of really talented dancers it can not hope to hang on to them unless it can offer them the development opportunities and the range and type of repertory which they need and want. ENB's business model does not enable it to offer the wide range of repertory which other companies are able to provide which means that at some point some of its dancers are likely leave for other companies unless they are able to undertake activity outside ENB such as being allowed to appear as guests with other companies. At the end of last season there was an added pull factor the new director at Munich. Having lost or dispensed with the services of a large number of dancers who served under his predecessor Zelensky was actively recruiting new dancers. I suspect that this was a far more significant factor in the personnel changes which occurred at ENB than has been suggested in the article which prompted this discussion. The problem is that the most likely explanation for what happened at ENB lacks the vital element required for a good newspaper story there is no sex in it. Edited February 9, 2018 by FLOSS 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 2 hours ago, FLOSS said: The reality is that we none of us know whether what we have read is an accurate account of genuine problems within ENB Really? I wouldn't put money on that if I were you. If there were no problems why did ACE step in? What was in that article is the tip of a very ugly iceberg. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevsky Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 4 hours ago, FLOSS said: The reality is that we none of us know whether what we have read is an accurate account of genuine problems within ENB But Mark Monahan and Christopher Wheeldon clearly thought they knew something was amiss. Otherwise, why would ENB have been referred to in that article and why did Wheeldon say "the issue of concern is all the other stuff". 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 8 hours ago, turtledove said: an interview with Christopher Wheeldon. ‘’you don’t choose who you fall in love with....... Obviously, the issue of concern is all the other stuff and I hope that they sort it out because they're a really good company". Precicely, I really don’t see that a personal relationship is anyone else’s business. But there are some serious allegations amongst the smoke screen, anyone choosing to not see it, or take it seriously is being rather blasé IMO. The signs are there, have been there for a while and need addressing without a doubt. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, Harwel said: Precicely, I really don’t see that a personal relationship is anyone else’s business. But there are some serious allegations amongst the smoke screen, anyone choosing to not see it, or take it seriously is being rather blasé IMO. The signs are there, have been there for a while and need addressing without a doubt. It isn't anyone's business as long as that relationship doesn't adversely affect other staff. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 I don't want to add fuel to the fire but, having followed ENB quite closely over the last couple of years, I would say that it was Corrales rather Hernandez who displaced Acosta in the pecking order in terms of casting, scheduled performances (opening nights and evening rather than matinee performances) and creating roles. I know that Acosta has been injured, and no doubt people will say that it's because he became disillusioned at ENB, but I personally feel that he had lost some of his spark and I think that the move to Munich may work out very well for him (obviously, I hope that it does) with plenty of new rep and a fresh start in a thriving company in what I believe is a very nice city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavycapers Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, Kate_N said: If we're going to criticise Ms Rojo for this, where do we start? Balanchine? His behaviour came close to what we might call abusive nowadays. Do we discount what he did because of his relationships (multiple) with his leading dancers? I think it is well documented that his behaviour didn't just come close to abusive, it was abusive. (His treatment of Suzanne Farrell when she rejected his advances and married Paul Mejia, for instance). Whilst it doesn't dim my recognition of Balanchine as a choreographic genious, it does colour everything I watch that he created. Ditto, Woody Allen. It makes me very uncomfortable. Working in the BBC for many years, one formed relationships with others at work, because few partners would understand why you came home at midnight most nights, but if you formed a relationship with a superior, one of you had to move to another department.. I am not suggesting that this was the case at the ENB, but I think those in a position of authority would be best to avoid relationships with subordinates, because there will always be the possibility for the latter of the consequences of saying no. Edited February 9, 2018 by cavycapers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavycapers Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) A Edited February 9, 2018 by cavycapers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 3 hours ago, cavycapers said: A You’re adorable 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavycapers Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 B you're so beautiful.... 😁 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Macmillan Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 .... but what are we going to do about HIM? (Now, was that with Angela Rippon or Glenda Jackson?) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Ian Macmillan said: .... but what are we going to do about HIM? (Now, was that with Angela Rippon or Glenda Jackson?) Angela - in the split dress 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Macmillan Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Dave: Thanks - I can still see her emerging from behind that desk! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheherezade Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 On 09/02/2018 at 16:35, nevsky said: But Mark Monahan and Christopher Wheeldon clearly thought they knew something was amiss. Otherwise, why would ENB have been referred to in that article and why did Wheeldon say "the issue of concern is all the other stuff". I have no way of knowing whether the allegations are correct and would not therefore wish to speculate but surely the 'other stuff' must remain an 'issue of concern' unless and until the allegations are either confirmed or dismissed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 On 09/02/2018 at 20:15, aileen said: I don't want to add fuel to the fire but, having followed ENB quite closely over the last couple of years, I would say that it was Corrales rather Hernandez who displaced Acosta in the pecking order in terms of casting, scheduled performances (opening nights and evening rather than matinee performances) and creating roles. I know that Acosta has been injured, and no doubt people will say that it's because he became disillusioned at ENB, but I personally feel that he had lost some of his spark and I think that the move to Munich may work out very well for him (obviously, I hope that it does) with plenty of new rep and a fresh start in a thriving company in what I believe is a very nice city. I had understood that Yonah Acosta had been unhappy about being unable to guest elsewhere; has he also suggested that he lost out on roles to Hernandez? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Perhaps the uproar when Muntagirov left ENB for the RB, with the accusations of poaching by the RB and of his having left Klimentova and indeed Rojo in the lurch, should be looked at in a different light now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Muntagirov didn't leave Klimentova in the lurch. She had already decided to retire, so they left within a short time of each other. She was very supportive of his move to the RB. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 (edited) I made this point in response to FLOSS' point that when new talented people come into companies other dancers can be displaced in the pecking order. Having observed casting closely over the last couple of years ((I would usually go to opening nights and see several casts in all programmes apart from Nutcracker) Acosta did seem to drop down the pecking order after Hernandez' and particularly Corrales' arrival. I would not expect Acosta to complain about this directly in an interview as it would make him sound jealous. Rojo's policy of bringing in guests for many programmes also displaced Acosta in the casting. Edited February 11, 2018 by aileen Changed one word and spacing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, Sim said: Muntagirov didn't leave Klimentova in the lurch. She had already decided to retire, so they left within a short time of each other. She was very supportive of his move to the RB. I know, but the discussions on the forum when Muntagirov announced his departure for the RB did include accusations from some that he was leaving both Klimentova and Rojo in the lurch and that this was not appropriate behaviour. At that stage those posters did seem to take the view that ENB had been wronged by his decision to move to the RB. I meant that now that these further matters have been aired it casts a different light on that viewpoint. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynette H Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, Legseleven said: I know, but the discussions on the forum when Muntagirov announced his departure for the RB did include accusations from some that he was leaving both Klimentova and Rojo in the lurch and that this was not appropriate behaviour. At that stage those posters did seem to take the view that ENB had been wronged by his decision to move to the RB. I meant that now that these further matters have been aired it casts a different light on that viewpoint. It is possible to read your statement as implying that there might be a link between the arrival of Hernandez, and the departure of Muntagirov., which might not of course have been your intention. Muntagirov left ENB in spring 2014 to join the Royal. Hernandez joined ENB in 2015, (though he had guested previously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 That certainly wasn’t my intention Lynette - I simply remembered the furore on Muntagirov’s departure and think this casts a different light on the view of some that he had to have been ‘poached’ rather than deciding to leave for his own reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletfanp Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 (edited) Muntagirov has been quite open in a number of public interviews about his reasons for leaving ENB. Namely, that he didn't feel he was developing as a dancer by dancing a restricted repertoire, and that Rojo had flatly refused to allow him to guest elsewhere (a freedom allowed to him under Eagling). Was she worried about him being "poached" if she let him dance with other companies? If so, that backfired on her somewhat.... Edited February 11, 2018 by Balletfanp 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 This has appeared on social media, everything in this article is accurate. http://www.balletposition.com/blog/the-two-faces-of-english-national-ballet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 MAB, how do you know that everything in this article is accurate? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 It seems from this that the cat is well and truly out of the bag now. I do hope that the dancers will be helped in finding a way forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Dilemmas, dilemmas... I have supported ENB for the past few years, i thought that Emerging Dancer and the new corps de ballet award in the past couple of years was a sign that they were really forward thinking in terms of people management. So to support the dancers who remain or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Turtledove, why do you post almost exclusively about the internal workings of ENB (I've looked at your posting history)? Are you an ex-employee of the company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletfanp Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 All I can say is, if it isn’t true, it’s one hell of a complex story for a whole group of dancers to make up. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 1 hour ago, aileen said: MAB, how do you know that everything in this article is accurate? 14 minutes ago, aileen said: Turtledove, why do you post almost exclusively about the internal workings of ENB (I've looked at your posting history)? Are you an ex-employee of the company? Crikey, aileen, to quote Monty Python, "nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition"! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 35 minutes ago, Blossom said: Dilemmas, dilemmas... I have supported ENB for the past few years, i thought that Emerging Dancer and the new corps de ballet award in the past couple of years was a sign that they were really forward thinking in terms of people management. So to support the dancers who remain or not? Please do support them, in its long history the company has had its ups and downs and I've supported them through thick and thin. If they are demoralized the audience can play its part in letting the dancers know just how much they are appreciated. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheherezade Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Anna C said: Crikey, aileen, to quote Monty Python, "nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition"! Tempted to 'like' but I wouldn't dare! And purleeese don't take that the wrong way, Aileen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, MellissaHuntsley said: I'm bothered by some of the petty descriptions of the unknown contributors for this article But not bothered by what has been alleged, apparently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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