"Russian" and other style Tutus!

[Lizbie1]

Ivy Lin, I think that the original poster was speaking in general terms - of course Russians don't *always* dance in pancake tutus, nor English companies in the "gentler" style they talked about, but there are definite trends (speaking as someone whose ballet watching has been almost exclusively in England and Russia, the tendencies are very clear to me).

 

I do agree though that the Bolshoi and Mariinsky seem to be moving away from very flat tutus of late. About time, I'd say!

[Ivy Lin]

It's a double-edged sword. I think the powder puff tutus and the pancake tutus are probably lighter to dance in, allow for more freedom of the leg, and since they

are made of lighter fabric, allow for closer partnering. The Russians in general love high extensions which are easier under the pancake tutus:

 

 

The English tutu forces the ballerina to have a less extreme extension because of the boning and the multi-layered fabric:

 

 

So it's a chicken and egg thing. Do the Russians prefer that flat tutu because of their love of high extensions or did they develop that style of dancing because of their tutu?

 

Same with the powder puff tutus: allow for more closeness in partnering and freedom of the leg.

 

 

Marianela Nunez's Diamonds has the same movement but in British style tutus the extravagant extension is not as marked:

 

[Sharon]

7 hours ago, Ivy Lin said:

Interesting that in 1957 Maya Plisetskaya's black swan tutu was more powder puff than anything:

 

 

Wow wasn't she a fantastic actress, the way she uses her eyes - sorry off topic but how amazing!

[cavycapers]

10 hours ago, Ivy Lin said:

And his reconstruction of Swan Lake:

Oh, those are glorious tutus!  The Ratmasky ones. How elegant and beautiful you must feel wearing one of those.  How much more suitable, too, for women rather than girls to wear.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by cavycapers

[cavycapers]

10 hours ago, LinMM said:

Funnily enough the romantic tutu can make you look fatter than the more classic pancake one! But as long as kept simple as in Giselle looks lovely on the right dancers!! 

 

 

I was looking at designs for older ladies to wear and came across these pics.  These ladies are all very slim but look much larger than they actually are wearing the romantic tutus.  How much better they look in their second choice of costume.  In fact, some costumiers construct their romantic tutus in 'gores' which helps to disguise that ghastly bunching up of many layers of tulle at the waist.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by cavycapers

[cavycapers]

Sometimes the extreme flatness (almost to the point of looking like an inside out umbrella) seen in the Russian tutu is merely because they are brand new, and need to 'drop' slightly.  You can see in a corps who is wearing a recently replaced tutu!  This clip makes me smile as someone obviously hadn't told second dancer from the left that tutus were being worn slightly droopier this year. 😃 makes me want to chase them round with a steam iron!  Hilarious how they overlap each other though, the taller girls' tutus over the shorter ones!

 

I love the little swans' tutus in this clip though.  The squashing together of these four tutus produces a lovely 'taco' shape. The four of them in a row makes a very pleasing effect.

 

[assoluta]

11 hours ago, LinMM said:

I believe in Ratmansky's production of Sleeping Beauty for ABT the tutus are more bell shaped ....as they were in original productions I believe.

 

Ratmansky's "reconstruction" was a reconstruction not of the original 1890 production, not of the 1914 reprise, restaged by Sergeev, with entirely new set of decorations and costumes having little to do with those of the original production, but of the 1921 London "Sleeping Princess", again, with completely new decorations and costumes. In 1922-1923 Lopukhov set up a goal to reconstruct the original Petipa production, this however resulted in departing even further from the original.

 

 

[Geoff]

3 hours ago, assoluta said:

 

Ratmansky's "reconstruction" was a reconstruction not of the original 1890 production, not of the 1914 reprise, restaged by Sergeev, with entirely new set of decorations and costumes having little to do with those of the original production, but of the 1921 London "Sleeping Princess", again, with completely new decorations and costumes. In 1922-1923 Lopukhov set up a goal to reconstruct the original Petipa production, this however resulted in departing even further from the original.

 

Well, sort of. Ratmansky's work is something of an amalgam:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/11/arts/dance/review-ratmanskys-the-sleeping-beauty-has-premiere-in-california.html

 

Without going back over the disputes which have raged since the first reconstruction attempt - Mariinsky, 1999 - maybe it is correct to say Ratmansky's designs (and therefore those tutus) are based on the 1921 Sleeping Princess, while the dancing is based on the much discussed Sergeyev collection held in Harvard (i.e. Mariinsky Sleeping Beauty 1914). Is that fair?

 

[Ivy Lin]

A comparison of Firebird tutus:

Margot Fonteyn's tutu:

 

Yulia Stepanova's Firebird tutu:

 

 

Teresa Reichlen (NYCB) Firebird tutu:

 

 

[LinMM]

Think Fonteyns just about wins the Firebird tutu for me.

 

Assoluta Thankyou for that post .....the information makes truely fascinating reading ....poor old Diaghilev having to flee across the channel from his creditors....and only wish the Alhambra Theatre was still there in Leicester Sq. 

 

will have to read up about Ratmansky's  revival of Swan Lake and what he was aiming for here ...before the RB's Swan Lake in the summer.

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by LinMM

[assoluta]

16 hours ago, Geoff said:

 

Well, sort of. Ratmansky's work is something of an amalgam:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/11/arts/dance/review-ratmanskys-the-sleeping-beauty-has-premiere-in-california.html

 

Without going back over the disputes which have raged since the first reconstruction attempt - Mariinsky, 1999 - maybe it is correct to say Ratmansky's designs (and therefore those tutus) are based on the 1921 Sleeping Princess, while the dancing is based on the much discussed Sergeyev collection held in Harvard (i.e. Mariinsky Sleeping Beauty 1914). Is that fair?

 

 

Not an amalgam if you realise that it was Sergeev himself who was responsible for the London 1921 production.

 

Anybody who is really interested in "authentic Petipa", "reconstructions", etc, must know that N.K. Sergeev is a figure at the very centre  of all these issues. There has been a strong resentment against him as a régisseur at Mariinsky in the years before the bolshevik revolution, it continued afterwards, he was held responsible for his opposition and prevention of recording the Petipa and Fokine productions, that could be easily accomplished by 1914, in full knowledge that he would be the sole possessor of the choreographic text for those productions, then he left the country taking the notes with himself, making sure he was the owner of the unique copy, and the only person who was able to understand their contents (the notes are very difficult to read and understand without a proper instruction, their coverage is also fragmentary).

[assoluta]

5 hours ago, Ivy Lin said:

A comparison of Firebird tutus: (...)

 

 

...and the famous photograph by Seymour, of Stepanova, the last one of the baby ballerinas of "Ballets russes",

 

 

The original Firebird, Tamara Karsavina, danced it in a fantasy costume, not in a tutu. The only good quality photographs I could readily locate where you can see her fully, show Karsavina partnered by Bolm, not by Fokine, her original partner.

[Ivy Lin]

Here are pictures I could find of Karsavina and Fokine:

 

 

 

The closest I could find to a tutu on Karsavina's Firebird is here:

 

 

And here's another legendary Firebird, Maria Tallchief:

[cavycapers]

I like the Fonteyn tutu best of these too!  The russian tutu is just standard issue everything as extreme as possible tutu but in red and the NYCB tutus are too pared back to represent a firebird.  However, I am just reading Gelsey Kirkland's autobiography (heavy going!) and there is much about her hatred for her Firebird costume.  Looking at images, i think she may have a point!  I like the second picture, at the fitting, she looks well pissed off!

 

Leanne Benjamin's tutu verynsimilar to the Fonteyn one, now I look at it.

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by cavycapers

[assoluta]

The first ever ballet performance I attended was a fabulous "Firebird" with Annette Page. I had an excellent seat, close to the stage, and the image of a fiery firebird, exactly like on the photograph with Fonteyn, above, remains one of my most vivid and cherished balletic memories. Annette Page passed away earlier this month, I will be always thinking of her dearly, she was the one who introduced a small child to the magnetic beauty of Ballet.

[MAB]

Thanks for sharing your memory of Annette Page.

Edited December 31, 2017 by MAB

[LinMM]

My first memory of Fonteyn...actually dancing as opposed to photos from William Chappells book ....was as the Firebird. 

She was magical too ....the tutu  seems much more vivid than in the piccies ....and she used her eyes to magnificent effect and this stayed with me ...this was around 1960 ...so pre Nureyev era.

 

Some of the above costumes are interesting in that they are just that very theatrical costumes ...not stylised tutus...so much more interesting for a costume designer I think...but not exactly that easy to dance in some of them.

I think one or more of the above piccies come from the Fokine Book ....another now distant memory of me burying my head in...getting in touch with something which seemed magically Russian at the time.

 

[Ivy Lin]

Another comparison:

 

Bolshoi Diamond tutu:

 

Mariinsky Diamond:

 

 

Royal Ballet Diamonds:

 

 

NYCB Diamonds:

 

 

[cavycapers]

It seems to me that the Bolshoi and Mariinsky tutus are wrong, much too wide.  Lovely Nella's tutu is more like it, but the NYCB is the correct one really, being much more Balanchine in its shape.

 

 

[cavycapers]

On 29/12/2017 at 19:53, Ivy Lin said:

The pics you posted earlier in the thread, IvyLin, of the Diamonds tutus, from the NYCB and the RB, are very interesting in the light of the Gelsey Kirkland autobiography I am reading at the moment, about her constant battle with Mr. B because she fought against his desire for the steps to be everything, with the portrayal of any emotion being way down the list.  When I watch the Diamonds clip of Suzanne Farrell and look at the pic you posted, the ballerinas look almost drugged, and whilst the Farrell clip has a wonderfully dreamy quality, how much more lovely is the pic of Marianella and Thiago where they are showing so much joy?

 

 

 

[Ivy Lin]

Hmm well I've seen the Bolshoi and Mariinsky and POB perform Jewels and they all go for that far away, dreamy reverie quality. Different ballerinas take it to different extremes. Maybe the most extreme I've seen is actually the Bolshoi: Olga Smirnova dances it almost like a Shade in Bayadere -- far away, never reachable, never even approachable. The Royal Ballet video I've seen is actually an outlier. 

 

But I think all approaches are valid. I think of it like a bunch of accents that evolve from the same language, all beautiful. 

[cavycapers]

Back to an earlier discussion, my problem with the romantic style tutus for the corps in the current RB Swan Lake is that Siegfried is  frequently searching for Odette amongst all the swans, and it makes a lot more sense that he is confused if she is wearing the same as the corps apart from a little crown!  I mean, he's never seemed the sharpest knife in the box, but really.....?  It's not exactly 'Where's Wally?'....

Edited December 31, 2017 by cavycapers

[Ivy Lin]

Another tutu comparison: Royal Ballet Sleeping Beauty tutus over the years:

 

 

Alina Cojocaru:

 

 

Marianela Nunez:

 

 

 

[alison]

On 12/29/2017 at 16:59, LinMM said:

In RB Alice I hated the card tutus ....though they served the production design well I suppose.

 

OTOH, in ENB's Alice I loved the card tutus.  Does anyone have a photo?  (And the Liquorice Allsorts ones for the Mirlitons? in Derek Deane's Nutcracker)

 

5 hours ago, cavycapers said:

The pics you posted earlier in the thread, IvyLin, of the Diamonds tutus, from the NYCB and the RB, are very interesting in the light of the Gelsey Kirkland autobiography I am reading at the moment, about her constant battle with Mr. B because she fought against his desire for the steps to be everything, with the portrayal of any emotion being way down the list.  When I watch the Diamonds clip of Suzanne Farrell and look at the pic you posted, the ballerinas look almost drugged, and whilst the Farrell clip has a wonderfully dreamy quality, how much more lovely is the pic of Marianella and Thiago where they are showing so much joy?

 

4 hours ago, Ivy Lin said:

Hmm well I've seen the Bolshoi and Mariinsky and POB perform Jewels and they all go for that far away, dreamy reverie quality. Different ballerinas take it to different extremes. Maybe the most extreme I've seen is actually the Bolshoi: Olga Smirnova dances it almost like a Shade in Bayadere -- far away, never reachable, never even approachable. The Royal Ballet video I've seen is actually an outlier. 

 

But I think all approaches are valid. I think of it like a bunch of accents that evolve from the same language, all beautiful. 

 

But when I saw it I thought that (RB) approach was totally wrong: it went against everything I'd ever seen coached in that ballet.  I'd always been told the ballerina should barely be aware of the man's presence.

 

Anyway, since this is a tutu thread, can I put in my usual plea for a bit of frill across the crotch in Classical tutus?  I really don't want to be too aware of gazing at the ballerina's unmentionables - it's totally inappropriate!

 

[Ivy Lin]

I should add that at NYCB (my home company) the Jewels interpretations vary too. There are two current main Diamonds girls: Sara Mearns and Teresa Reichlen. Sara Mearns is a very emotive Jewels. Not so much in facial expressions but in terms of movement, she's for the big dramatic poses. Teresa Reichlen is extremely classical, with beautiful long lines and a more aloof, restrained style. And in NYC balletomanes get into arguments about which approach is better. 

 

I do think that one thing about Marianela that I've seen (and I've seen her live too) is that her naturally sunny, happy stage disposition often can't be "turned off." I saw her in Song of the Earth and she was bright and happy there too. What is so winning in Sleeping Beauty or Fille Mal Gardee becomes a detriment in more dramatic roles.

[grey]

10 hours ago, cavycapers said:

Back to an earlier discussion, my problem with the romantic style tutus for the corps in the current RB Swan Lake is that Siegfried is  frequently searching for Odette amongst all the swans, and it makes a lot more sense that he is confused if she is wearing the same as the corps apart from a little crown! 

 

Yes!

Especially when the other swans in their long, greyish skirts look more like ostriches...

 

The snowflakes in the RB's Nutcracker look perfect in their long, jagged-edged skirts though - I get a sense of flurrying snow that I don't with shorter, stiffer tutus.

Edited January 1, 2018 by grey

[cavycapers]

I remember thinking, when I first saw them, Ah, that's what they do with all those recycled plastic bags!

[assoluta]

17 hours ago, Ivy Lin said:

Another comparison:

 

Bolshoi Diamond tutu:

 

When I woke up in the New Year and saw THIS (!!), I couldn't think of tutus. Those HANDS, Agrippina Vaganova must be rolling in her grave, for me it is just painful to look at it. I cannot imagine any great Kirov ballerina capable of doing this while dancing, much less during curtain calls.

[Ivy Lin]

Another fun comparison: Symphony in C

 

Old Karinska powder puffs for NYCB:

 

New costumes:

 

 

Mariinsky:

 

Bolshoi:

 

 

POB:

 

 

Royal Ballet:

 

[jmb]

This is not a comment on tutu style, which is, I confess, not a topic I have paid much attention to. But it is about tutus and deserves a wider audience. It's Brisbane in the middle of last year, and the Royal Ballet is coming. So I am at the box office sorting out a minor problem and having an animated conversation with the one of the box office ladies, who is as excited as I am about the visit. Next to us, a couple of women perhaps in their 60s sound extremely suspicious about the information they are getting from another box office attendant. Suddenly one of them taps me on the shoulder. Her eyes fixed on a poster of Steve Macrae and Natalia Osipova in a particularly impossible position, she demands, 'Is this a modern ballet?' in tones that suggest no expectation of an acceptable answer. 'Yes', I say. 'It's a modern ballet'. Her worst fears confirmed, she asks, 'What about tutus?' 'No tutus,' I say, trying to suppress a vision of Virginia Woolf in any kind of tutu. "No tutus?' Her voice goes up a least two octaves. She turns to her companion, and in a voice redolent of horror and disapproval, repeats, 'No tutus'. With one accord they turn and leave the theatre. What kind of ballet is it that doesn't have tutus?

The visit gave me a magical 10 days, but this little vignette holds a small but treasured place in my memory. 

[assoluta]

22 hours ago, jmb said:

"No tutus?' Her voice goes up a least two octaves. She turns to her companion, and in a voice redolent of horror and disapproval, repeats, 'No tutus'. With one accord they turn and leave the theatre. What kind of ballet is it that doesn't have tutus?

 

Marvelous! How refreshing! What kind of "ballet" is it, indeed?...

[cavycapers]

I mean, why would you want to see dancers in beautiful tutus and tunics when you can see them in their vest and pants  thank you, Wayne Mcgregor.....it always reminds me of when you forgot your gym kit at junior school and had to do PE in your underwear....

 

[Ivy Lin]

5 hours ago, assoluta said:

 

Marvelous! How refreshing! What kind of "ballet" is it, indeed?...

 

No tutus:

 

 

No tutus:

 

 

No tutus:

 

 

No tutus:

 

 

No tutus:

 

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Ivy Lin