Anon2 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) But at least you had a personal tutor and could swap. My experience of vocational schools both lower and upper is the students have no allocated person to turn to. The kids are told they can approach anyone but the reality is no one wants to get involved or give the time. We were lucky as a member of academic teaching staff looked out for my dd when she realised she was struggling to cope with issues raised by the mental health of one of her peers. And then it transpired that the staff wouldn't/couldn't discuss issues with her as it would compromise the said young persons right to confidentiality and the school's reputation. I had another child go to university whilst my dd was looking at moving from LS to upper. I was amazed by the information of the support available to the university students as listed by Aileen above. And yes it might not be perfect but having needed the services my university student child got access to free individual counselling and a student mentor to help them settle. My dance student counselling cost me a fortune over a few terms. Edit to add My experiences of pastoral care are not at Ballet West but another school within the UK. Edited October 19, 2017 by Jane To add info 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 When looking at your options for USs remember that all USs are not the same. Some are audited by OFSTED and others by QAA. Some are boarding school like and have been around for more than 50 years whilst others are much newer. In the case of BW as a fairly new institution (especially when it come to offering degrees)it is obviously from this thread needing to improve its pastoral care services/provisions. As someone who works in a Russell group university the services at universities are being improved all the time due to political pressure and the introduction of fees and competition. This is not something that the universities are necessarily doing voluntarily but the league table pressure means that they are having to listen. There are services but not all students use them and they will vary depending on the institution. I think what is important to think about for parents with 16 year old dc is to be wary of their readiness to take on the rigours of a full time ballet training at an US that offers a university degree as there are temptations when living independently and being away from home that will challenge them personally. The rigours of the training do not really allow for the party lifestyle. Many a dc can get involved in risky behaviour outside the classroom that will affect their performance in the classroom especially if an injury is sustained through misadventure. Having said that I am interested in finding out why the reputation of USs in the area of pastoral care does not appear to be particularly positive. Food for thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Speaking as one with a foot in each camp, the whole university environment is totally different to the dance world. One of my children applied to 5 campus type universities, all Russell Group and each with 11 to 16 thousand undergraduates on roll. Its easy to disappear in a place that size and your absences at lectures may go unnoticed for quite a while. By the same token an institution of that size is much better resourced to provide student services (and much more in the public gaze as another poster has noted). The profile of your typical uni undergraduate is also unlike that of a dancer, most of the ones I know grump severely at the prospect of leaving their bed before 9.30 am, and as for going to a place of study that prohibits alcohol on the premises, don't even think about it. Again, anyone with a reasonable set of A levels has a huge choice of subjects and places of learning to choose from, so getting the right match ought to be possible. By contrast, in the dance world there are a very large number of dancers chasing a very small number of places in full time training. A fortunate minority will get more than one offer; many will get nothing and others will be offered one place only. We all know (read the rest of this forum) that we invest huge amounts in our childrens dance training :financially and emotionally, so of course the idea that having been offered one or more places you would not accept any one of them is pretty unthinkable. Add to that the enormous demands that are placed on dancers in training and its no wonder that difficulties can arise. BTW I am speaking generally here, not about any individual school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 13 hours ago, aileen said: I wonder whether there is still a prevailing attitude of 'sink or swim' or 'survival of the fittest'. Yes there is, and unfortunately, it seems that often there's nobody willing or available to throw a lifebuoy when it's needed. All the attention, support and extra help/coaching goes to the students at the top, and the ones who are struggling are left to flounder. They are then given the choice of whether to jump or be pushed. This comment is not with reference to BW by the way, we could probably do with a whole separate thread for issues with pastoral care/student welfare/safeguarding, particularly at upper school level. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 For me there is one particular issue of concern that I have been told about 'in real life' that hasn't really been mentioned so far as to do so would be breaking the terms of the forum if done so under a pseudonym. Not so much of a pastoral issue as an attitude issue. My husband has taught in four different vocational dance schools/colleges & there is a difference in general pastoral care attitudes between the more school type places & the college/degree type places but on the whole all places he has worked have had systems in place to support their students. I know this isn't the case everywhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Sadly I think part of the problem is that the whole process of training has become an industry. It is normal to talk about the Entertainment industry, but now I feel that with the expansion of the number of vocational places at 16, it has just become a conveyor belt. So long as there are plenty of new recruits each year, and there are a few who get jobs when they come out the other end, the rest of the students don't seem to matter much. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 On 16/10/2017 at 17:06, aileen said: In a very recent interview with Yasmine Naghdi, newly appointed principal at the Royal Ballet, she says that she nearly gave up ballet at 16 because a teacher (at the Royal Ballet School) kept telling her that she was no good. Aileen, I was interested to read your post. DD has started training abroad and a huge difference I have noticed is a much more positive atmosphere around the chances of having a career and generally speaking a happy environment in the dance studio, where the dancers seem to have much less strong opinions on where they need to train in order to succeed. Maybe we have just been lucky so far and I know some people have had bad experiences overseas. I do feel though the attitude of some UK ballet teachers is all to often much too negative, including in the top schools. Too many UK teachers pick their one or two favourite students in the class and basically teach and correct only those students, at the same time throwing out only negative (often body focussed "you need to lose weight" or "you have bad this that or the other") corrections to the other students. This approach just ends up persuading every dancer that they are either amazing with 0% effort or useless with 100% effort, both equally counter-productive and untrue. Just my personal opinion but to me a good teacher should be correcting and encouraging every single dancer in the class, so that every student leaves feeling they have had something of a mini private lesson. There are some teachers who seem to do that, it is not impossible. I've also noticed one or two of the top UK schools seem to have a hugely patronising style of teaching. I appreciate the UK system of training may be slow and repetitive and it's certainly not for me as a non-dancer to judge whether this is right or not. Please, though, these are committed artistically minded young people. Surely they don't need to be spoken to as if they are 5 year olds? 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Flora you have hit the nail on the head discussing our experiences of UK training. This morning had a long chat to my dd about her negative school experiences and what she is now witnessing within a company. Was then discussing same with husband when you posted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Flora i don't think you DDs experience is particular to the dance world - That said it isn't acceptable in any setting and reflects poorly on teachers and their leaders / managers. There is a bit of a ego thing , one thing i've noticed is that Dancer biogs on company pages tend to make extensive reference to where they trained , not just their upper school / degree , but if they went to vocational lower school and/or the 'local' dance schools and associates/ CATs they attended... probably more so than professional / elite sports people ... the fact that such and such a premiership kickball player's first competitive matches were for Crinkley Bottom under 9s isn't seen as vital info , I've seen it in ordinary schools , iIve seen it in sports, I've seen it in work places both public and private sector, seen it massively in charities where anointed ones have rises to prominence that make some of the meteoric rises from new corps member to principal look positively lacksidaiscal. Classes is an interesting one, as an adult beginner , how short a time i'd been taking class was viewed with a bit of surprise by a well known name when i was at a intensive for grown ups ( of the 'i would have said you'd been taking class for longer than that' ), but equally i think the experience of someone whose weekly class is normally 4 -10 people and occasional bargain private/ semi private will be different to someone who is fighting for barre space in a weekly class of 20-30 students That said same well known name also seems to be able to provide personalised input to everyone in a 40 + person class over the 90 minutes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pups_mum Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Interesting comments. (Though drifting away from the original topic of the thread.....so maybe worthy of a separate one?) I've noticed significant cultural differences between my DD's dance training over the years and my son's sports training. Admittedly this is not a statistically meaningful sample, and one does hear some dreadful stories from the sports world so maybe we've just been lucky so far. But I have observed that my son's coaches in both his sports are very positive in their approaches. They are not soft or easily pleased by any means, but he is definitely encouraged to "dare to fail" and always seems to have something positive to say after a session,(even if it's just "I didn't get injured today!") He seems to be encouraged to focus on his own individual development - where he's improved from and where he's going - whereas I feel that with DD's dance it's always been more about comparison with other people (generally unfavourable of course!) than her own progress. Plus I've found more consistency and what just feel like more modern coaching techniques in the sports, along with a clear desire to build the children's self confidence rather than the often negative ethos encountered in ballet. Maybe I've just been lucky so far, but I'm yet to come across a hockey or cycling coach who uses humiliation as a teaching technique, but I've seen plenty of that in the dance world. I think most educators have now accepted that you don't get the best put of children (or adults come to that) by scaring and/or belittling them, but ballet does seem to be a bit behind the times in these matters. (Speaking very generally rather than about any specific teacher or institution.) 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 On 25/10/2017 at 13:29, Pups_mum said: . Maybe I've just been lucky so far, but I'm yet to come across a hockey or cycling coach who uses humiliation as a teaching technique, but I've seen plenty of that in the dance world. I think most educators have now accepted that you don't get the best put of children (or adults come to that) by scaring and/or belittling them, but ballet does seem to be a bit behind the times in these matters. (Speaking very generally rather than about any specific teacher or institution.) Yes I think you have been lucky, and hope that you continue to be. One of my young relatives was completely put off tennis after being selected for academy training, due to the excessively 'serious' nature of the coaching and the pushy behaviour of other parents. She loves the game but did not like the competitiveness and the pressure to win matches (she was 7 at the time). Anyway to return to the OP and subject, on our limited experience of it, we have found Ballet West thus far to be a friendly and warm hearted school with excellent training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 11 minutes ago, mnemo said: Yes I think you have been lucky, and hope that you continue to be. One of my young relatives was completely put off tennis after being selected for academy training, due to the excessively 'serious' nature of the coaching and the pushy behaviour of other parents. She loves the game but did not like the competitiveness and the pressure to win matches (she was 7 at the time). Anyway to return to the OP and subject, on our limited experience of it, we have found Ballet West thus far to be a friendly and warm hearted school with excellent training. That is something interesting about Dance , ballet in particular... yes there is JAs but serious training is limited before yr 7 and if not 'in the frame' by 16 / 17 for upper school entry it's very rare especislly for female dancers to have a high level pro career... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletaddict Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Hey, I've recently auditioned at Ballet West and have been offered an unconditional place to start in September! I absolutely loved the place and everything about it, but was hoping to hear a bit more from people who are currently or have trained there as I need to make sure it is the right school for me to go to, as it is such a big decision! I was wondering if I could find more out about the accommodation, weekly schedule, teaching, how stressful the degree is alongside training, living in Taynuilt, and half terms/holidays you get and how much time you get to visit back home, and anything else that there is to add about ballet west! Thank you!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Balletaddict said: Hey, I've recently auditioned at Ballet West and have been offered an unconditional place to start in September! I absolutely loved the place and everything about it, but was hoping to hear a bit more from people who are currently or have trained there as I need to make sure it is the right school for me to go to, as it is such a big decision! I was wondering if I could find more out about the accommodation, weekly schedule, teaching, how stressful the degree is alongside training, living in Taynuilt, and half terms/holidays you get and how much time you get to visit back home, and anything else that there is to add about ballet west! Thank you!!! Here are a few points to start you off. Accomodation is either in the chalets in the grounds or in houses/flats in the village. Pretty well everyone rents from the school as it is such a small place there are few other options. The advantage of the chalets is that its a short walk in the morning and you can go back to make your lunch. The drawback is that you have a long walk to go anywhere else. The scenery is undeniably stunning but the weather can be dreadful in winter with heavy snow and storms. It can get very cold - towards the end of last term the washing machines froze. Also the terrain makes for unreliable wifi and poor TV/mobile reception. The school are pretty good at fixing accommodation problems. Most people get their groceries delivered from Tesco and there is a small shop in the village. There isn't very much to do locally, however the course is pretty full on so this is unlikely to be a problem. Its a lot of dance and so far pretty limited academics. There is only one half term (in October) although I understand that this might change next year. Classes run Monday to Saturday so unless you are local going home is out of the question in term time. The annual tour is a big deal for most of the students, but it is exhausting as they are taken to the venues there and back by coach. On at least one occasion they did not get back until 02.30am but still had to attend class the next morning. It is invaluable experience though. One area that could be improved on is transparency in the application process. Successful candidates are told on the day if they have been offered a place, however it is not until they start the course in September that they will find out which one of two groups they have been allocated to although the allocation is made at audition. Happy to answer more specific points by pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletaddict Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 38 minutes ago, Mnemo said: Here are a few points to start you off. Accomodation is either in the chalets in the grounds or in houses/flats in the village. Pretty well everyone rents from the school as it is such a small place there are few other options. The advantage of the chalets is that its a short walk in the morning and you can go back to make your lunch. The drawback is that you have a long walk to go anywhere else. The scenery is undeniably stunning but the weather can be dreadful in winter with heavy snow and storms. It can get very cold - towards the end of last term the washing machines froze. Also the terrain makes for unreliable wifi and poor TV/mobile reception. The school are pretty good at fixing accommodation problems. Most people get their groceries delivered from Tesco and there is a small shop in the village. There isn't very much to do locally, however the course is pretty full on so this is unlikely to be a problem. Its a lot of dance and so far pretty limited academics. There is only one half term (in October) although I understand that this might change next year. Classes run Monday to Saturday so unless you are local going home is out of the question in term time. The annual tour is a big deal for most of the students, but it is exhausting as they are taken to the venues there and back by coach. On at least one occasion they did not get back until 02.30am but still had to attend class the next morning. It is invaluable experience though. One area that could be improved on is transparency in the application process. Successful candidates are told on the day if they have been offered a place, however it is not until they start the course in September that they will find out which one of two groups they have been allocated to although the allocation is made at audition. Happy to answer more specific points by pm. Thank you so much! That information is really helpful... However, would you be able to expand please on the two different groups they have? Is this done on ability, and are there any differences between the two groups. For example, are there any disadvantages for being put into group 2? Thank you Xx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Happy to answer specifics by pm. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowBallerina Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Hi guys, hoping to start a facebook group for people starting at ballet west in September as I am going to be and I think it would be great if as many of us as possible could talk beforehand. Message me if you are. <3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 On 09/03/2018 at 17:22, Balletaddict said: Hey, I've recently auditioned at Ballet West and have been offered an unconditional place to start in September! I absolutely loved the place and everything about it, but was hoping to hear a bit more from people who are currently or have trained there as I need to make sure it is the right school for me to go to, as it is such a big decision! I was wondering if I could find more out about the accommodation, weekly schedule, teaching, how stressful the degree is alongside training, living in Taynuilt, and half terms/holidays you get and how much time you get to visit back home, and anything else that there is to add about ballet west! Thank you!!! Hi, I’m currently in my third year at Ballet West feel free to send me a PM and i’ll be happy to answer any questions that you have🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 Going back to the OP’s question I just wanted to share a little of my experiences. I am coming to the end of my third year at Ballet West and I couldn’t be happier with the training and care I have received. My journey was far from straight forward believe me. A major injury half way through my first year left me pretty much off dance for six months and I would say I wasn’t fully recovered for the best part of a year. It was during this time that I experienced the care and compassion of all members of staff who took the time to make me feel included and part of the school community. On the night I got injured I had to be transferred to Glasgow for an emergency operation and a member of staff drove me there and stayed with me for 5 hours leaving at 5am even though he was teaching at 9 that morning. In my experience I can’t fault the pastoral care. I know that if I have a problem there is always somebody who I can pop and speak to. I have been given invaluable experiences through the annual tour and yearly showcase and have had the chance to perform in three full length productions as well as a solo in last years showcase and soloist roles in two Ballet excerts in this years showcase. These experiences coupled with the great all round training I have received over the three years I have been here gave me the confidence going into company auditions this year and just this week I received an offer of a contract from a UK company for next season. I have achieved more than I ever thought I could and have been pushed and encouraged to fulfil my potential even when I believed that I didn’t have any. Obviously these are my own experiences and other people’s may be different but just wanted to share my thoughts. I don’t want to make this any longer because I seem to have a habit of doing that😬 but feel free to PM me if anybody has a specific questions they want answered and I would be more than happy to have a chat🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 10 hours ago, anaballerina said: These experiences coupled with the great all round training I have received over the three years I have been here gave me the confidence going into company auditions this year and just this week I received an offer of a contract from a UK company for next season. I have achieved more than I ever thought I could and have been pushed and encouraged to fulfil my potential even when I believed that I didn’t have any. Congratulations!! I'm absolutely thrilled for you xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Lovely news @anaballerina. I remember you going and your toe/foot problems (just before you started or very soon after you started). So pleased you e had such a positive and successful training. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Congratulations @anaballerina great news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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