Royal Opera: Turandot

[penelopesimpson]

Just wondered if anyone else felt the orchestra was overpowering the singing yesterday?  It was a great performance, hugely enjoyable, but...

[Lizbie1]

There were places where I agree you could argue that, but it was always in the big ensemble numbers, such as the Act I finale, where outside the recording studio the detail will always suffer a bit. Personally speaking, from my perch in the upper slips I thought the balance was about right and l had no trouble hearing the voices at the end of In questa reggia, for example.

 

Alagna was on thrilling form I thought.

[penelopesimpson]

2 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

There were places where I agree you could argue that, but it was always in the big ensemble numbers, such as the Act I finale, where outside the recording studio the detail will always suffer a bit. Personally speaking, from my perch in the upper slips I thought the balance was about right and l had no trouble hearing the voices at the end of In questa reggia, for example.

 

Alagna was on thrilling form I thought.

Hairs on the back of my neck stood up.  Absolutely wonderful.  American guy next to me was crying.  

[ninamargaret]

Seeing it on Sunday morning.  Slightly odd choice for a Sunday morning entertainment but I love the opera and this production of it.  Have spoken to several people who dislike it intensely and find the story distasteful. Can't say I agree at all.

[capybara]

8 hours ago, ninamargaret said:

 Have spoken to several people who dislike it intensely and find the story distasteful. Can't say I agree at all.

 

I have known much of the music for years but last week's rehearsal at the ROH was my first experience of this opera as a whole. I mustn't comment on the 'performance' as the first night was yet to come, but I was shocked at how dated I found the production to be and how distastefully racist is seemed, especially the names and antics given to Ping, Pang and Pong. 

[Lizbie1]

35 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

...I was shocked at how dated I found the production to be and how distastefully racist is seemed, especially the names and antics given to Ping, Pang and Pong. 

 

I can see why some feel the production to be racist but for my money it was just about the right side of the line. (I speak as one who couldn't bear the old RB Nutcracker Chinese dance.)  It also seemed far less dated to me than, say, the Mitridate which the critics insist hasn't aged at all.  As for Ping, Pang and Pong's names: I don't think we can blame the production for that!

 

I don't doubt that Puccini himself would have been alive to the distastefulness of the story: the dark side of humanity is in all his operas to a lesser or greater extent (for example, it's clear to me that Rodolfo and his friends are poor by choice, but it's Mimi, who doesn't have that luxury, who suffers for it).  And if part of the objection is to Puccini and his librettists' portrayal of Eastern culture, where does that leave, for example, Bayadere?

 

Again, I think yours is a perfectly valid point of view, but I wouldn't want the casual reader to think that it's an open and shut case: in my opinion it's too strong a show both dramatically and musically to miss.

[MAB]

If Ping, Pang and Pong had been Wing, Wang and Wong, would they be more acceptable?  Trouble is no W in the Italian language.

 

The Puccini opera I have most problems with is Butterfly, but the music is wonderful.   There was great fascination with the orient in Europe for centuries, just think of all that 'willow pattern' crockery.  I genuinely think there was no racist intent, just a sometimes clumsy interpretation of another culture.

[penelopesimpson]

2 hours ago, capybara said:

 

I have known much of the music for years but last week's rehearsal at the ROH was my first experience of this opera as a whole. I mustn't comment on the 'performance' as the first night was yet to come, but I was shocked at how dated I found the production to be and how distastefully racist is seemed, especially the names and antics given to Ping, Pang and Pong. 

The sun is shining and I am going to Otello tonight so on top of the world - until I read your post!  

 

I found Turandot a lot of things on Saturday - hugely enjoyable, colourful, moving, shocking, uplifting - but not racist.  If we start judging all our cultural heritage by today's standards we will have nothing left.  Visual art, opera, dance, monuments, statues, commemorative plaques - must they all be subjected to the PC agenda and then expunged?

I saw nothing racist in Turandot.  Ping and Pong etc. are not to be taken seriously - they are the equivalent of clowns in the Western world and nobody has yet suggested we ban them although give it time.  Butterfly is, in many ways, quite shocking, but this only heightens the drama and poignancy and it is, after all, simply depicting a custom that was prevalent at the time.  It is bad enough that students have started air-brushing history, but if it starts happen in the world of art and culture, we are really in trouble.  We should surely be defending our heritage - not necessarily the points of view expressed, but simply the artistic depiction.

 

When I saw The Dream I felt a little uncomfortable about Oberon and Titania fighting over a young boy and couldn't help wondering just why it was that Oberon wanted the lad so much.  But this is Shakespeare and maybe he intended to highlight homosexuality or maybe I am judging by today's standards.  Whatever, I giggled a bit to myself and then moved on, immersing myself in something that was written a long time ago and is still hugely enjoyable.

 

Perhaps it is my age but there are many like me who feel equally oppressed by today's 'right-on' attitude to everything.  My Turandot visit was ruined by London being virtually a no-go area for Gay Pride.  Buses were non-existent, taxis would not take you anywhere near the West End and eventually I had to hire a rickshaw (and this goes against my principles because I hate the idea of a human being transporting me) to get my 85 year-old companion who was wilting in the heat, to the station.  I chose to walk and found myself jostled and intimidated in Regent Street by people shouting and yelling.  Demonstrations are one thing, but nobody should be given the right to hold a so-called Festival in the middle of the West End.  I have no interest in whether this was Gay Pride or any other special interest group; I am simply making the point that ordinary people like me should also have rights, and that includes the right to enjoy a pleasant day out in our capital city.

 

Rant over.  Lets enjoy art for what it is and not worry about whether it is PC or not.

[MAB]

Well, now I don't feel so bad about opting out of Turandot on Saturday, .  Having also an evening ticket for Glyndebourne I worried that with so much happening in the west end I might not get to Victoria for my train on time, seems I made the right decision.

[penelopesimpson]

5 minutes ago, MAB said:

Well, now I don't feel so bad about opting out of Turandot on Saturday, .  Having also an evening ticket for Glyndebourne I worried that with so much happening in the west end I might not get to Victoria for my train on time, seems I made the right decision.

You did, although I'm glad I went.  The march/festival whatever started off three hours late so roads were closed virtually all day.  Shopkeepers were going mad as were the police but, as usual, nobody dared say anything.  When I crossed over Regent Street the atmosphere was horrible.  If you weren't waving a flag or had your face painted, you were jostled and jeered at.  Quite horrible.  All, apparently, in the name of equality.

[Lizbie1]

15 minutes ago, MAB said:

Well, now I don't feel so bad about opting out of Turandot on Saturday, .  Having also an evening ticket for Glyndebourne I worried that with so much happening in the west end I might not get to Victoria for my train on time, seems I made the right decision.

 

On the other hand it was a pretty fabulous performance - apart from Alagna's total commitment and fearlessness, Kurzak (in her role debut) was a surprisingly lush-toned Liu and Lindstrom's top is very exciting, though I'm not so fussed about the rest of her voice (and tbh I only really care about Turandot's top!).

[CHazell2]

34 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

 When I crossed over Regent Street the atmosphere was horrible.  If you weren't waving a flag or had your face painted, you were jostled and jeered at.  Quite horrible.  All, apparently, in the name of equality.

 

I am sorry that you had a dreadful experience. I wouldn't have treated you like that. Trouble is, these days society has become so polarised and there is a sense that if you aren't with us, you are against us.

 

That is totally wrong, we must treat everybody's point of view with equal respect. I think that today's gay community have achieved so much that they are reduced to bickering over trivial things - but I think that it is wrong that they treat people like they treated you.

[MAB]

2 hours ago, CHazell2 said:

 

I am sorry that you had a dreadful experience. I wouldn't have treated you like that. Trouble is, these days society has become so polarised and there is a sense that if you aren't with us, you are against us.

 

That is totally wrong, we must treat everybody's point of view with equal respect. I think that today's gay community have achieved so much that they are reduced to bickering over trivial things - but I think that it is wrong that they treat people like they treated you.

 

I'm afraid you are right, I've never gone near the Pride march because I am phobic about crowds, but from what I've seen on TV, a significant number seem an angry lot.  I was once in Barcelona on Pride day and the difference was very marked because being Spaniards they simply turned the event into a fiesta with people waving at them from balconies and children running alongside the floats.  It was all great fun and a very long way from the event in London.

[penelopesimpson]

It was a strange experience.  It was billed as a Festival but had the angry overtones of a protest - but apparently without anything to protest about.  Many of my friends are gay but they are tolerant of others and don't seem to have this belief that heterosexuals are there to be jeered at or converted.  Like feminism which so often has ugly overtones, the gay movement just seems to be so angry and intolerant of others which is hugely ironic.  

 

In in the end, unable to move through the West End, I called in to see a friend and went home later.  The streets were filthy, literally awash with cans and bottles and refuse.  I wonder what tourists think when they see our beautiful City turned over to a rabble?  

 

 

 

 

[penelopesimpson]

3 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

On the other hand it was a pretty fabulous performance - apart from Alagna's total commitment and fearlessness, Kurzak (in her role debut) was a surprisingly lush-toned Liu and Lindstrom's top is very exciting, though I'm not so fussed about the rest of her voice (and tbh I only really care about Turandot's top!).

Yes, Liu was wonderful.. I admired Lindstrom's gusty power but I find her voice just a little sour/shrill - searches for right words.  But I could happily have gone back the next day.  Did you notice how much the audience liked it - the attention span and enthusiasm was lovely.

[Lizbie1]

Yes, I can't remember the last time I heard such warm and genuine applause at ROH, and after every act: it was a terrific atmosphere throughout. And I too wanted to see it all over again!

[Anna C]

Thanks to the ROH live streaming the entire opera via Youtube last night, dd and I were able to watch Turandot from the luxury of the sofa.  This was a huge bonus as I couldn't have managed a BP Big Screen event and Turandot wasn't being streamed in cinemas, so I had thought we'd miss out.  The only thing we weren't keen on was Gok Wan's presentation; calling Roberto Alagna "Alberto" and a slightly leering reference to Alagna being "easy on the eye". 

 

We loved the opera and thought Alagna and Kurzak were both exceptional and in beautiful voice. Kurzak moved me to tears in "Signore ascolta".  Lindstrom sounded less rich and rounded than Kurzak and without knowing the story well, we found Turandot herself very cruel and somewhat unappealing as a character.  I'm not sure if that's a normal viewpoint or not! 

 

The ROH production is beautiful and both dd and we decided that due to the live stream we would definitely step out of our ballet-going comfort zone and see Turandot live next time it appears at the ROH.  We have both seen and loved La Bohème there several times so I'm glad dd loved Turandot.    Huge thanks to the ROH for streaming it. 

[Scheherezade]

I was there last night and absolutely agree with you, Anna C, as to Alagna and Kurzak. This is definitely Alagna's role. He was exceptional on so many levels, not just vocally, the best performance I have seen from him in a long time, although the biggest cheers of the evening went to Kurzak, and rightly so, as she made for a totally heart-rending Liu.

 

You are right about the character of Turandot. She is cruel, cold and totally impossible to like. I was about to say irredeemably cruel but my friend who was also there felt that last night's performance clearly portrayed the redemptive power of hope and love, which she thought was particularly pertinent in today's troubled times.

 

In some ways, you can draw parallels between Turandot's unfathomable cruelty and much of the carnage that we witness today in that Turandot believed that her behaviour was not only justified but divinely sanctioned.

 

In many ways, this makes Turandot more relevant today than at almost any time during the recent history and in the same way that the victory of hope and love makes it easier for us to reconcile the 'happy' outcome for Calaf and Turandot with the previously prevailing culture of state-sanctioned torture and Liu's terrible sacrifice, perhaps we can hope that the same will be true of many of the horrors that surround us today.

[penelopesimpson]

Gok Wan?  Mystified

[Scheherezade]

16 hours ago, penelopesimpson said:

Gok Wan?  Mystified

He did a brief introduction at the opera house along the lines of 'these are the places that will be receiving the big screen broadcasts; you can't see them but they can see you.' He may well have done more on the big screen - looking at the costumes, the odd interview ...

[penelopesimpson]

How strange.  I supposed its all the name of accessibility.  Other buzz words are available.

[ninamargaret]

Just back from today's matinee. Strange to be going to opera at 1130 but I think it attracted a slightly different audience. Quite a few children, tourists, most people definitely 'dressed down'. But one of the quietest audiences ever and so enthusiastic. No Alagna, but excellent Korean tenor, Sunh Kyu Park, who seemed to thoroughly enjoy himself. And a lovely Liu, Aleksandra Kurzak. I love the production, the stylised movement ( thought the dancers were especially good). I know people have different views about the opera, but I loved it. It's the second time I've seen,the production and I also saw the transmission on Friday, so I've done pretty well.

[alison]

On 10/07/2017 at 11:23, penelopesimpson said:

I found Turandot a lot of things on Saturday - hugely enjoyable, colourful, moving, shocking, uplifting - but not racist.  If we start judging all our cultural heritage by today's standards we will have nothing left.

 

Very true.  But ironic that you almost immediately go on to say:

 

Quote

 

When I saw The Dream I felt a little uncomfortable about Oberon and Titania fighting over a young boy and couldn't help wondering just why it was that Oberon wanted the lad so much.  But this is Shakespeare and maybe he intended to highlight homosexuality or maybe I am judging by today's standards.

 

 

 

Yep.  He only wanted the boy as a page ("I do but beg a little changeling boy to be my henchman") - and probably only for oneupmanship because he was in Titania's care - wouldn't have bothered if he'd belonged to anyone else.  The alternative interpretation is extremely unpleasant, and I'm sure Shakespeare wouldn't even have hinted at it.

 

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Demonstrations are one thing, but nobody should be given the right to hold a so-called Festival in the middle of the West End.  I have no interest in whether this was Gay Pride or any other special interest group; I am simply making the point that ordinary people like me should also have rights, and that includes the right to enjoy a pleasant day out in our capital city.

 

It seems to me that there are more and more events - often officially supported - liable to bring central London to a standstill for hours on end.  For example, I'm once again receiving all Transport for London's standard emails warning me that central London will be a no-go area at the end of this month because of a major cycling event - and that's not to mention the Tour de France/Formula 1(?) etc. events.  Surely there must be a better way of allowing these events without them causing total chaos for other people who don't want to participate in them but just want to be able to move around the capital in a relatively normal manner?  (And don't get me started on Charing Cross on New Year's Eve!)

[alison]

On 10/07/2017 at 16:08, MAB said:

 

I'm afraid you are right, I've never gone near the Pride march because I am phobic about crowds, but from what I've seen on TV, a significant number seem an angry lot.  I was once in Barcelona on Pride day and the difference was very marked because being Spaniards they simply turned the event into a fiesta with people waving at them from balconies and children running alongside the floats.  It was all great fun and a very long way from the event in London.

 

I've only ever really skirted the Pride celebrations while coming out of Charing Cross to make my way to the ROH (and now I think of it I probably haven't even done that recently since the Royal Ballet's tended not to be performing at that time of year), but a fiesta is what I always thought it was - you know, pride in being gay?  If it's changed so much, I find that really disturbing - but then I obviously managed to miss any TV coverage, so am probably not best placed to judge.  

 

On 10/07/2017 at 13:18, CHazell2 said:

That is totally wrong, we must treat everybody's point of view with equal respect.

 

I look forward to that day - but I fear that at the moment it looks like being a very long time in coming.  I don't believe I've ever known this society as intolerant as it is at present.

 

But anyway, back to Turandot ...

[alison]

On 15/07/2017 at 09:21, Anna C said:

Thanks to the ROH live streaming the entire opera via Youtube last night, dd and I were able to watch Turandot from the luxury of the sofa.  This was a huge bonus as I couldn't have managed a BP Big Screen event and Turandot wasn't being streamed in cinemas, so I had thought we'd miss out. 

Seems to me the ROH is getting very selective about what it notifies patrons about.  I'd probably have liked to have seen this had I known about it *

 

Quote

We loved the opera and thought Alagna and Kurzak were both exceptional and in beautiful voice.

On 10/07/2017 at 12:59, Lizbie1 said:

 

On the other hand it was a pretty fabulous performance - apart from Alagna's total commitment and fearlessness, Kurzak (in her role debut) was a surprisingly lush-toned Liu and Lindstrom's top is very exciting,

 

On 09/07/2017 at 18:44, Lizbie1 said:

Alagna was on thrilling form I thought.

 

On 09/07/2017 at 21:44, penelopesimpson said:

Hairs on the back of my neck stood up.  Absolutely wonderful.  American guy next to me was crying.  

 

Doubly wish I'd known about this

 

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without knowing the story well, we found Turandot herself very cruel and somewhat unappealing as a character.  I'm not sure if that's a normal viewpoint or not!

 

Well, if it's not, then my viewpoint isn't normal either!

 

 

* Sorry - I just cannot get my comment out of Anna's quote and into the gap between it and the next one!

[Bluebird]

18 hours ago, alison said:

 

 

 

Doubly wish I'd known about this

 

 

 

 But you can still watch it. It's available online for another few weeks: