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Physique requirements prohibit talented dancers?


MrsSri

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I have not been able to find a thread particularly about this so sorry if I am duplicating.

 

We went to the Tring Open Day today and my daughter was very taken with the school (have read lots of threads and understand the negative/positive points), however, she loves dance above all else and has so far refused to do drama or sing, aside from an RAD Summer school this year. Anyway, I approached the Head of Dance about the programme to find out what audition was like and she told me that she was looking for very high arches, slender torso and great flexibility of the hip and that basically it was all about physical requirements not about experience or ability. I later noticed in the show that the ballet dancers all had long, thin arms and legs and very slight torsos (perfect for that uniformity they want). My daughter also auditioned for JAs this year and didn't get a place. When her dance teacher (whose son and several of her other students are MAs) asked about why my daughter didn't place in JAs, she was told that she didn't have the required body structure, long limbs and neck etc. I was aware of this prior to her audition so it wasn't a total suprise.

 

If her physique prohibits her from getting a ballet place at a dance school (she is slim and extremely powerful and toned but her torso is long) then do we just give up on the idea? I don't want to put her through an audition that is a forgone conclusion because of a part of her body not fitting with the current fashion (I appreciate she has to be flexible). She is a graceful dancer and loves contemporary, modern jazz and acro along with ballet. Her teacher wants her to audition for The Place, which she is keen to do, but even if she did get in then this would be in addition to secondary rather than be her main school.

 

It seems unfair to me that her body mechanics can be great but the shape of her body means she can't access government funding for a dance place and perhaps not even be offered one.

 

Should we just give up on Tring, and any of the other performing arts schools for that matter? She works so hard, it's hard to tell her it's all about body parts that can't be altered. There are many mindblowing dancers out there that don't fit into this ideal.

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Hi Mrs Sri - I am quite surprised that head of dance at tring said that as I thought last year when we went to the open day there was more of a range of shapes and sizes than say at WL. However, tring give very very few funded places (I think last year in the end only one funded place went to a year 7 girl) and perhaps the majority of children there are not on government mds awards. No doubt they are looking for very specific physical requirements, it does seem to me that all the ballet schools are, and talented children who don't fit their requirements may find it difficult to get a place. There have been various threads On the forum about physical requirements etc might be worth looking for them to hear other people's thoughts on this.

I do think at age 11 entry physique is very very high on list for audition boards, when they are looking more for those things and then will see if they can train them, perhaps less so at 16 as they are looking for accomplished dancers with strong technique not potential. Also remember physiques change during puberty and some children will develop in a way that means they no longer have the desired physique or shape. Apparently even torso to leg ratio can change during puberty! All of which is to say that yes it is what Schools are looking for at 11, but puberty changes body shapes, and at 16 they are looking for other things as well as body shape. Beyond that it is really up to you if you want to continue with your dd down a path that won't be easy or straightforward but also is not in any sense predictable at this age. Even a child with perfect physique at 11 might grown and develop, might get injured, might decide at 15 they want to be a doctor! Nothing is certain. Good luck with it all!

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Excellent advice, amos73. Puberty can make such a difference - sometimes the changes make the body more suitable for ballet training (and sometimes less, but nothing you can do about that at this stage). I echo the opinion that lower school selection panels are more focussed on physical proportions than for 16+ training.

 

If you are within travelling distance of London then as well as looking at the fantastic CAT schemes at The Place and Trinity Laban (and don't rule out applying for these), it would also be worth looking at Central School of Ballet's Associate Scheme which provides excellent ballet training as well as Character and Contemporary.

 

And welcome to the forum. :)

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Hi MrsSri - if you require funding for your dd it may be worth looking at Hammond. They have school bursaries available which have more flexibility on requirements than MDS as the school is free to decide rather than being bound by the MDS requirements. The school also offers a broad training which may suit your dd from what you say.

 

It will be a roller coaster whatevery you decide - good luck! You will get honest advice on this forum - it's a lifesaver!

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But the arts/performing arts world is not fair. Never has been, and although there have been changes & an effort to make the performing arts more diverse (eg Graeae or Theatre of the Deaf) I doubt that the basics will change. Historically, female ballet dancers have always been sought to idealise a particular female body type, connected with our cultural aesthetics of  [feminine] grace and fluidity of movement - so: small head, long neck, short torso in relation to long limbs. 

 

This doesn't mean that other body types are not good dancers - quite the contrary. But that aiming for professional success certain sectors  of the performing arts may be tricky. 

 

But ... there is more to the dancing life than a ballet company. Up & down the country there are well-trained dancing professionals working as teachers, dancers in the community, choreographers, school dance teachers, therapeutic workers with those with physical and/or learning disabilities. Not to mention singer/dancer/actors (the "triple threat") in stage shows all over the country.

 

Your daughter would be well-advised to learn some sort of musical instrument and singing. From what you write, she's young, so singing is probably not a priority at the moment - I was taught that the female voice doesn't mature until the early 20s. BUt a musical instrument would give her a take on the alternatives to "pure" ballet training.

Edited by Kate_N
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I agree with others in that physique plays a greater part in acceptance for younger students, but by the time upper school auditions come around, they are also looking for other things, which is when performance quality, natural ability, artistry and current level of training come more to the fore.

 

All the ballet schools teach contemporary as well now (it is needed in the job market as there is no such thing as a purely 'classical ballet' company any more - the dancers need to be versatile and adaptable) and contemporary dancers come in a much wider variety of physiques. Since your dd is also keen on contemporary, it would be well worth looking at the CAT dance schemes at The Place and Laban, which are also MDS funded.

 

Whereabouts in the country are you?

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Remember that to get in to a RBS associates scheme is incredibly difficult, there just is not enough places. Also regards the comments from the head of dance at Tring, it's just one persons opinion. I know children who have been turned down for Tring who have gained a place at Elmhurst and Young Dancers Academy. If your daughters only pysical negative is a long torso I wouldn't worry. I bet it's not that long at all. Audition for all five schools as every one of them sees different qualities in their dancers.

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It's really a sad fact that physique is so important in ballet - I look at my students and know that I have perhaps one or two in each class who have a chance to make it and be accepted by our national ballet company (and they're of necessity less picky than a lot of companies).  The point is though that our students are well represented in other dance genres professionally, because they've had a strong ballet training, so even if your daughter does not have the ideal body for classical ballet, the dance world is open to her!  I agree that she might find it easier to get in at 16 rather than 11 and by then she might decide to go down a different path.  I believe that it is very important to expand the training with modern etc, because company repertoire today is very varied and dancers need to be more versatile, but ballet should be the core of any training programme.

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It's really a sad fact that physique is so important in ballet - I look at my students and know that I have perhaps one or two in each class who have a chance to make it and be accepted by our national ballet company (and they're of necessity less picky than a lot of companies).  The point is though that our students are well represented in other dance genres professionally, because they've had a strong ballet training, so even if your daughter does not have the ideal body for classical ballet, the dance world is open to her!  I agree that she might find it easier to get in at 16 rather than 11 and by then she might decide to go down a different path.  I believe that it is very important to expand the training with modern etc, because company repertoire today is very varied and dancers need to be more versatile, but ballet should be the core of any training programme.

I agree,

 

I know of one student who attended Tring from 11 on the Classical Ballet Programme, Completed her 6th form at Laines for one year, by her own choice to expand her career choices. Successfully gaining her first professional contract on the Disney Cruises. 

 

There is no guarantee that those students that enter vocational schools at 11 will be suitable for classical ballet, as previously commented on. No matter how much training and potential a pupil has Mother Nature has the final say. Sad but I can understand, when you are watching Swan Lake for instance and the Corps. The entire corp need to be a universal size/shape. Any differences stand out and detract from the ballet. Contemporary dance companies are far more forgiving.

 

But this body size/shape crosses other careers not just ballet. It's heartbreaking for parents as I know only too well.

 

My oldest son trained from a very young age and entered a college, 16yrs at 5ft2 showing huge potential and offered places at other establishments. 3 years later he was 6ft tall  

 

Not exactly the height for a jockey!  Can't fight it. No one could have predicted that. Career path has not changed just "tweaked" as we call it.  

 

Good Luck in whatever you decide on MrsSri, just open up your search for potential school/colleges. There are plenty out there for excellent technically accomplished and/or potential dancers.  :)

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I would go to all the auditions, you never know what they are looking for or may see in your child. I didn't believe my child fitted the criteria regarding physique but she was given a place this year. I guess it depends on how much your ds wants it too. Good luck!

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Sad but I can understand, when you are watching Swan Lake for instance and the Corps. The entire corp need to be a universal size/shape. Any differences stand out and detract from the ballet. Contemporary dance companies are far more forgiving.

 

                              

 

 

As a ballet-watcher I absolutely disagree with this and, fortunately, so do the two copies I most follow!  Vive la difference!!

 

Reading Doing Dance with no background in dance whatsoever (just being a keen watcher) I sometimes wonder what a straw poll of ballet-watchers would find.  I bet most of them are not too bothered by different body types.  

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As a ballet-watcher I absolutely disagree with this and, fortunately, so do the two copies I most follow!  Vive la difference!!

 

Reading Doing Dance with no background in dance whatsoever (just being a keen watcher) I sometimes wonder what a straw poll of ballet-watchers would find.  I bet most of them are not too bothered by different body types.  

Yes, but Northern don't "do" a traditional Swan Lake, where the Corps have to look almost identical.

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I think in answer to the original thread that physique can prohibit talented dancers, i'm afraid it is what it is. You could have the most beautiful, highly photogenic young lady, but if she isn't at least five feet nine inches tall she will never be a model. [some very rare exceptions]. When I stopped dancing I considered applying for a job as Cabin Crew as [at that point] I spoke fluent French. I was turned down flat by every airline. Didn't even make it to the interview stage. Why? Because I was short sighted and wore contact lenses. When I asked a friend who works for Air France as Cabin Crew why this was,she told me if there was an emergency on board and all the lights went out, if someone knocked into me and one of my contact lenses came out I would be useless and helpless to help the passengers. Modelling and Cabin Crew are just two jobs I know of where your physical limitations will rule out a career. Professional Jockeys is another one. It's tough, but talent is useless if not presented in the correct body for that particular career.

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Yes, but Northern don't "do" a traditional Swan Lake, where the Corps have to look almost identical.

But they have in the past and 5 years ago they did a beautiful traditional production of Giselle. BRB do traditional productions of Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty, Nutcracker and Giselle .

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If you watch the company classes from world ballet day, you will see a similarity across all companies with their female dancers. They are different heights and weights but there is a similarity in that they are long limbed, their proportions of leg length to body length are similar, their leg lines are all smooth and streamlined, the line of leg into foot is similar. They are incredibly strong and flexible, but with subtle differences. Feet are beautiful, mostly highly arched but not usually, excessively so. Heads are usually small on top of proportionally long necks. This is the classical look. There are, of course exceptions, but you can spot a ballet dancer a mile off. I think it's mostly about body proportions.

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Thank you for making me welcome!

 

I've just spent a while reading through your well thought out responses, thank you for taking the time to reply. Hoglett - your thread was really interesting, how are you feeling now?

 

Whilst I appreciate everything said about uniformity, I am thinking about athletes, for example, and trying to work out what that must be like. All 100m sprinters will be muscular and powerful, but there are different heights, physiques, as with other events. They all run competitively fast in order to qualify. That got me wondering about whether coaches select athletes in the same way, disregarding speed etc if they have the wrong shape. But I appreciate that ballet is about aesthetic so perhaps this matters. This is presumably why the Misty Copelands of the world have to fight harder. I don't know the answer, but what I do know is that I have had strangers approach me to tell me how moved they have felt by watching my daughter dance. She does seem to have something in the way of artistry or musicality or emotion as well as technique. She also loves to choreograph.

 

My daughter has started to shift focus to contemporary. What I find strange, as someone not from a dance background, is that classical ballet seems to be the focus of all vocational schools with intake at 11yo and contemporary as an additional. Are there fewer contemporary jobs out there? I would have thought the opposite was true. Perhaps ballet is regarded, still, as a higher art form? I also note that contemporary is not always taught on summer schools, for example, to the younger students. Maybe this is to do with maturity of emotion? I hope she hasn't shifted her focus purely because she feels rejected by authority in the classical ballet world. She has a great body, good technique and she is dedicated to, and serious about, her dance studies.

 

I think, from what everyone is saying, that I will support her to audition for The Place this year (as we live in central London) and see if she can get onto their programme, as advised by her extremely supportive teacher! She auditioned for a dance scholarship this morning for a school specialising in performing arts so she may be in with a chance there, offering her extra opportunities to study. If not I will keep supporting her (she's doing 5-6 lessons a week by choice) and we'll look again at 13 or 16 to see what is out there then. Her teacher wants her to compete so that will give her an opportunity to build her confidence. She seems quite low in confidence at the moment. I think it's stressful in general, this time of life!

 

I would like to say we'd try Tring just for the experience but I am still unsure!

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PS. What are your thoughts on whether she will be able to access summer/Easter/Christmas weeks? Will they select based on physique too? She has done RAD before but thought it would be fun to try Tring for a week...

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Classical ballet is given the MDS funding as it is felt by the funding bodies that on the whole you need to begin training at a young age for a career in classical ballet.

 

Contemporary dancers can begin the intensive training in that genre at an older age.

 

And yes, often contemporary isn't tsught to younger students as you need a certain level of maturity.

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Ballet provides the basic training in strength, posture etc required from which all other dance forms benefit - that's why it's at the centre of all training.

 

On the whole summer schools etc do not select on physique. Tring have some great holiday courses you could try.

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I understand exactly what you are going through. My dd is a lovely ballet dancer, but does not have the physique and therefore did not get into JA's.  She is however on the contemporary CAT programme at NSCD (third year now) and is doing amazingly well and absolutely loves it.  Body shape is not as strict in contemporary and the reasons that make her "unsuitable" for ballet are the ones that make her a good contemporary dancer.  

Her ballet training (she still does 2 classes a week) stand her in good stead for her contemporary work.

 

Goodluck to your dc whatever she decides to do

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Never let one persons opinion deter your dreams.

My dd doesn't have high arches, long legs or a short torso but she got funding at Tring and now has a ballet contract. That may be what they would look for in an ideal world but hard work and determination go a long way.

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My DD does not have high arches yet is a RB JA... its something she is visually (even to my untrained eyes) improving with exercise as time goes on, and was really rather flat footed before she started with them.

 

I am curious about the long / short torso issue as that's something I've not come across before... can someone explain it to me please, ratio etc, I assume?

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Never let one persons opinion deter your dreams.

My dd doesn't have high arches, long legs or a short torso but she got funding at Tring and now has a ballet contract. That may be what they would look for in an ideal world but hard work and determination go a long way.

 

I just want to say thank you for posting that!

 

My DD refuses to audition and is insistent she is not the right body shape. She tells me she knows and she's the one that has seen / knows of girls that have been accepted and she doesn't look like them. In her words she says she doesn't have flat (or even nearly flat) turn out, swaybacks, or banana feet! 

 

Her various teachers have all tried to encourage her and that her physique is "in the range" of what they will be looking for and actually last week one teacher said exactly what you have said that "hard work and determination goes a long way" (she does have that in spades as a lot of them do). 

 

So my dilemma is whether to give her a gentle shove in that direction to just try again and keep trying alongside all the other things she does that she is perfectly happy with :)

 

I might just see if I can get her to try for MA first though.

 

To other parents, and MrsSri, it's really tough isn't it? This whole physique business :)

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Never let one persons opinion deter your dreams.

My dd doesn't have high arches, long legs or a short torso but she got funding at Tring and now has a ballet contract. That may be what they would look for in an ideal world but hard work and determination go a long way.

Posts like this are always so encouraging to read especially as I can see this being a route we will have to explore with dd in the future.

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Whilst I appreciate everything said about uniformity, I am thinking about athletes, for example, and trying to work out what that must be like. All 100m sprinters will be muscular and powerful, but there are different heights, physiques, as with other events. They all run competitively fast in order to qualify. 

 

 

Thing is, that's just sport. Ballet is a performance art form. Aesthetics and communicating to & entertaining the audience are the main thing. The athleticism of ballet is a side-issue. We train as dancers to get the technique perfected, so that the artistry & communication are dominant on stage.

 

It's easy to forget that in the training: that the ultimate goal is to please an audience, not oneself ...

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