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Do you think "good dancers" are often priced out of becoming "exceptional dancers"? Thoughts please.


joyofdance

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Festivals over here are competitions. A lot of towns will have a festival of dance and local dance schools can enter their children in group numbers, duets, solos etc. The styles of dance is many and varied from ballet, contemporary, modern, tap, song and dance, Greek, character. They have novice class and open class and usually run for a whole week. Each section is divided by age and style and usually a first, second, third is awarded. Most have a gala at the end of the week where the adjudicator selects some of her favourite dances to perform and in some festivals a cash prize/summer school is offered for the 'best' of the festival. Some have a lovely friendly vibe, some are bitchy and competitive in a nasty way.

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Festivals over here are competitions. A lot of towns will have a festival of dance and local dance schools can enter their children in group numbers, duets, solos etc. The styles of dance is many and varied from ballet, contemporary, modern, tap, song and dance, Greek, character. They have novice class and open class and usually run for a whole week. Each section is divided by age and style and usually a first, second, third is awarded. Most have a gala at the end of the week where the adjudicator selects some of her favourite dances to perform and in some festivals a cash prize/summer school is offered for the 'best' of the festival. Some have a lovely friendly vibe, some are bitchy and competitive in a nasty way.

Thanks Harwel – it sounds pretty similar to here except we don't have a Greek category and we don't have a gala, although we often have variation or championship classes where all entrants gather on the stage and sashes etc are awarded. I wonder if 'Greek' is what we call 'lyrical' (ballet end of jazz), or maybe 'classical barefoot' (ballet but in bare feet)?

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A festival is a competition.

 

Yes Greek is classical Greek dance - incredibly small print but it is good for strengthening feet and ankles.

 

Yes lyrical is ballet end of jazz - can be turned out or feet facing forward or a mix.

 

Eisteddfod is a festival/competition in Wales but usually includes other forms of performance such as music etc. Most festivals we come across in England are dance only but I know there are ones including drama/speech/music as well.

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Isn't it possible to do both without creating any problems Lisa? I don't think the majority of young dancers getting quality ballet training, who also attend festivals for fun, get carried away by any success they might have.

 

I have to agree with this. My dd attends festivals & I think has gained a lot from doing them without sacrificing ballet technique. She has been successful but the thing she likes the most is getting feedback from different adjudicators on any areas that she can improve upon. She in no way would get carried away by any success she might have had & I'm pretty sure she wouldn't know how many trophies or medals she has won. She takes a lot of normal ballet technique classes alongside any private festival classes so the festival classes are in addition to & not a replacement of her ballet technique classes. As a parent though I have seen her grow in confidence from a very shy little girl to a little girl that loves getting on stage & giving a confident performance. Do I think successes at festival guarantee her to get a place at a vocational school or have a successful career in dance? Absolutely not. Do I think that the time, effort & money involved in doing festivals is worth it? Yes I do. She has gained confidence & experience working as a team doing something she loves & has gained skills that will stand by her in life whether that be in dance or in whatever career path she chooses to follow

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Some of this sounds familiar.  Our dance school has schools they 'don't speak to' I didn't ask which as I wasn't going to get involved in all that. I'm finding it all a bit dreadful, though.  The children, on the whole, and from different schools, seem to be supportive of each other and we've kept in touch with some people we've met.  It's the parents from our own dance school who seem to be the main problem, especially the person who organises them and who views everybody in the school as competition to her daughter, whatever their age, and will also make disparaging and personal comments about our children and their abilities which inevitable gets back to us.    I thought my daughter would benefit and gain performance skills and improve expression etc which is why we let her try the festivals, but I'm really not sure it's worth it.  We're considering another school but worried it would be the same.

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I'm sorry to hear that isobit - you should seriously consider moving schools. They are not all the same! In our school there are occasionally isolated instances of poor behaviour but great on the whole - our experience is that most schools are the same.

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Some of this sounds familiar. Our dance school has schools they 'don't speak to' I didn't ask which as I wasn't going to get involved in all that. I'm finding it all a bit dreadful, though. The children, on the whole, and from different schools, seem to be supportive of each other and we've kept in touch with some people we've met. It's the parents from our own dance school who seem to be the main problem, especially the person who organises them and who views everybody in the school as competition to her daughter, whatever their age, and will also make disparaging and personal comments about our children and their abilities which inevitable gets back to us. I thought my daughter would benefit and gain performance skills and improve expression etc which is why we let her try the festivals, but I'm really not sure it's worth it. We're considering another school but worried it would be the same.

And what do the teachers say?

 

Disgusting to have comments made by a parent! I know how you feel and if I had my time again with someone who will remain nameless I would up sticks and leave!

 

But .. There's usually one wherever you go :( it's how the teachers view and handle it I think that's important

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I'm finding all the talk about festivals etc very interesting, but funnily enough, there aren't many dance schools in this area that do them. Although they are popular in some parts of the country, I suppose that they aren't an essential part of dance training, and lots of young dancers are successful in gaining vocational training places without ever having been on the competition circuit. You don't have to do them - handy to know if money is tight :)

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And what do the teachers say?

 

Disgusting to have comments made by a parent! I know how you feel and if I had my time again with someone who will remain nameless I would up sticks and leave!

 

But .. There's usually one wherever you go :( it's how the teachers view and handle it I think that's important

 

Well the teacher seems to think it is not acceptable to be discussing other pupils in a negative light and is going to have a general word with the main person.  It's still early days and whether anything will change I don't know.  General gossip about other parents seems to be the norm, but this crossed a line for me.  It seems to be not the done thing to confront parents directly, so I haven't done that.

 

Thank you both.  My instinct is to leave really.  Especially as one of the parents potentially reads our children's reports from the festivals before giving them to us, that makes me feel very uncomfortable under the circumstances.

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Way back in the days of yore when I was doing a few select comps, the fees were nothing like what you all seem to have to pay today. My mother was a professional dressmaker, so she made all my costumes, but surprisingly enough (especialy when I think how difficult it is nowadays to get the Mums to sew on elastics and ribbons)pretty much all the mothers made their own daughter's costumes too! They were always lovely as well and in very good taste. Our stage dances were taught in separate lessons, as the daily ballet technique classes were sacrosanct! Personally, I think that performing in front of an audience is just as important as technique classes, because what we are teaching is a performing art. Presentation, musicality and dance quality are an integral part of performing and technique alone is not enough. The RAD exams recognise that and a child who performs can often raise her mark considerably!

 

I think summer schools are a very useful addition to a talented child's training, but having intensive training for a week or two is not going to have a greater effect on improving your dancing daughters ability than would say taking two lessons a week instead of one all year round. As a teacher I really do suggest that instead of spending your hard earned money on holiday extras invest on extra lessons during the year.

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I'm following this post with great interest & it has really made me think about what is the best way to spend money that will be most beneficial to dd & also what may be the best way now may not be the most beneficial in the future. One thing I see has come up a few times is private lessons & although she gets private lessons with her regular teacher they are mostly in relation to learning & polishing festival dances. I sometimes think it would be beneficial for her to take a few private lessons with another teacher but what should I expect to pay for a private lesson with an experienced teacher? One perhaps that is an ex professional dancer themselves?

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I think prices vary quite widely for private lessons and who they are with based on previous discussions. We pay £26ph up north for usual school teacher.

 

Remember an ex-professional isn't necessarily a good teacher although I'm sure many are.

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I'm following this post with great interest & it has really made me think about what is the best way to spend money that will be most beneficial to dd & also what may be the best way now may not be the most beneficial in the future. One thing I see has come up a few times is private lessons & although she gets private lessons with her regular teacher they are mostly in relation to learning & polishing festival dances. I sometimes think it would be beneficial for her to take a few private lessons with another teacher but what should I expect to pay for a private lesson with an experienced teacher? One perhaps that is an ex professional dancer themselves?

 

Tootu, in our experience you should be able to ask for work on technique in private lessons, as well as competition work?

 

We are in the middle of arranging private lessons with a former principal with the Royal New Zealand Ballet (so exciting – she was my favourite to watch back in the 1980s!). I was surprised to find she charges similar rates to our own studio (NZ$80 per hour = £40 at current exchange rate, but we usually only do 30 mins. This lady also offers 45 minute lessons, which seems like a good compromise, for £25.)

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It depends on whether teachers have their own premises or not. In my area halls are very expensive and have to be hired hence private hour long sessions are £40. I personally am also incredibly busy so time is at a premium too!

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If it helps I've paid about £20 to £40 per hour depending on whether the studio is hired separately :)

Thank you annaliesey. That seems very reasonable. I'm not sure what I had in my head but I definitely had thought it would be more.

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To counterbalance it I have paid £35 per hour plus studio hire which can range from £10-£20 per hour.

But it was with an excellent sought after teacher.

Even at that though when I think what I pay for competition entries it still seems excellent value for money. Even more so when it's an excellent sought after teacher. It certainly makes you reassess the best way you can spend your money

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I can give you the teachers name in Birmingham. It's Julie Felix. She is an amazing teacher who was also ballet mistress to Birmingham Royal Ballet Company. She also does some lessons at Dance exchange in Birmingham.

  

Thank you Primrose. I really appreciate the recommendation. I will definitely look into it

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Even at that though when I think what I pay for competition entries it still seems excellent value for money. Even more so when it's an excellent sought after teacher. It certainly makes you reassess the best way you can spend your money

 

Goodness yes! :) 

 

I think if its private lessons for exams or general development it's a bit different when you are paying for creative time too ie; for competition dances as need to allow time to come up with concepts, choose and cut music etc. All that has to come into the time allowance. 

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When I was auditioning for jobs there were no advanced/professional level classes to take in Manchester. But there was a fitness centre in Manchester called Sherbet which was owned by the entertainer Marti Caine. There were the usual classes and a few basic dance classes in the main room. But upstairs was a small [very small] studio with mirror and a barre. No one ever went up there. My membership was really cheap for each month, and I could go in and use this small studio from 9 am to 8pm Monday to Sunday if I wanted. It was great for increasing my flexibility and practising cartwheels , as I couldn't do them if my life depended on it. Never once did I encounter anyone else using this studio. I didn't have to book it in advance or ask permission and I wasn't turfed out after two hours. I was sad a few years later when Sherbet closed down. For about a year I practically lived in there and made some lovely friends too.

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When I was auditioning for jobs there were no advanced/professional level classes to take in Manchester. But there was a fitness centre in Manchester called Sherbet which was owned by the entertainer Marti Caine. There were the usual classes and a few basic dance classes in the main room. But upstairs was a small [very small] studio with mirror and a barre. No one ever went up there. My membership was really cheap for each month, and I could go in and use this small studio from 9 am to 8pm Monday to Sunday if I wanted. It was great for increasing my flexibility and practising cartwheels , as I couldn't do them if my life depended on it. Never once did I encounter anyone else using this studio. I didn't have to book it in advance or ask permission and I wasn't turfed out after two hours. I was sad a few years later when Sherbet closed down. For about a year I practically lived in there and made some lovely friends too.

 

My local gym has a huge studio (as in, the size of 1 or 2 at the Place) but nobody uses it - probably because the barre runs along a floor to ceiling window, on the first floor, facing directly onto the street. They're weird about practicing (or even stretching) in there; the answer is to "ask forgiveness, not permission". That said, since intensive week their barre seems weirdly low:-)

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Thank you Lisa. My daughter secured a contract for a small well known ballet company that didn't pay well and me and her father refused to top up to the extent we would have to. She also secured a contract on Costa cruise ship which she was pleased about and then the one she really, really wanted came up the Royal Caribbean cruise ship. She will be very well looked after, stretched as a dancer and she is off to Australia. Elizabeth no longer wants to be a purely classical dancer even though she loves ballet a huge part of who she is. At the end of the day my daughter loves to dance and perform but she was getting fed up of being in constant pain from being on her toes all day. my daughter dream job would be to have a part in Cats, the white cat being her ultimate dream. Most of her friends graduated last year but a lot of them securing a job this year, that is why graduate lists can be out of date very quickly, one contract can end as another persons begins. Cruise ship auditions are cut throat too, students are up against ballet students and musical theatre students and a huge amount of them are after the cruises ????

I think this is a common problem - my dd also secured a contract with a small company in London but has had to turn it down due to lack of pay. The cruise ship contracts do look a very attractive alternative and what a fantastic opportunity to see the world.

Good luck to your daughter Tulip - I hope that she has a wonderful time x

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I was surprised to see just how many of DDs friends still get to perform ballet professionally despite not joining ballet companies.  Many cruise lines offer ballet numbers in their shows and like at least some of their dancers to be able to dance on pointe, my DD included, though I am aware that several of her friends working abroad in Majorca and Greece in particular, at hotel complexes - also have ballet in their shows.   My DD was advised by an agent to always keep up her ballet as it will be in demand and not all those working on cruise ships have the strength or proficiency required.

 

 

And back on topic of good dancers being priced out of being exceptional - DD's small village ballet school never did festivals and only the occasional competition (Fonteyn Nureyev when it ran). She had some private lessons as exam preparation from about age 12.  The school was so small she was allowed to attend the grade below hers free of charge to give her more hours. Her first summer school was aged about 13 and she only ever did one a year. We could not have afforded more, though luckily her home ballet school only shuts for 2-3 weeks in the summer anyway. She went to vocational school aged 16 and was offered her first professional contract on a cruise ship in May of her final year. Would she have been a better dancer if we could afforded more for her when she was younger? I don't know - possibly but possibly not. You cannot forsee how a child will develop physically, emotionally or mentally when they are only 7 or 8 years old - or even when they are in their early teens. There are so many factors that come into play. We may have been priced out of many things as she grew up - but regardless she is happy and earning a living dancing and that's all I ever really wanted for her.

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Finances are certainly a pressure for most families. And it does seem that the further they go down the route of ballet, the more expensive the exams and the equipment gets. As you get more proficient, seeking out centres of excellence further away rather than local grass-roots schools also adds layers of cost. I'm absolutely sure that promising children have dropped out because of expense.

Conversely, I'm sure there are very rich families whose dc's are kitted out to the nines, able to afford the best teachers, always immaculately presented who will drop out early because of injury or even because they are just not good enough. 

Opportunity fails to knock for many reasons. An achievement is something that requires strength, courage, persistence, patience, application and sacrifice.... Otherwise it is not an achievement. 

From what I can see, funding is available if your dc has genuine talent. However, this is like elite sport - you have to justify it (audition) first. I'm sure there are children who never get to these auditions due to cost. 

From this news article viewing classes - not wishing to take sides - I wonder whether cost of classes was a driving issue to the friction caused by the father.

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