taxi4ballet Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Going back to the original question about flexible dancers doing even more stretching to increase flexibility, I'm inclined to think that it isn't the best idea, and strengthening exercises would be more beneficial. The hypermobile/flexible dancer needs to have really strong core muscles, and as other posters have said, super-flexibility isn't any good unless you are able to control it. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. As you move, some muscles contract as others stretch. (I am sure Anjuli and others could explain this much more eloquently than I can)! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Yep - whilst it's important to maintain flexibility, it's probably more beneficial for hypermobile children to do prescribed strengthening exercises while other children are working on exercises to improve their flexibility. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Absolutely agree with the idea that the very flexible students (and especially if they're properly hypermobile) should be doing strengthening exercises, not trying to further increase their flexibility. I've seen lots of hypermobile students at vocational schools who have had to work really hard to improve not only their core strength but general strength to be able to hold their turnout for example (my own dd has wonderful turnout but has never been any good at holding it - we've not bothered about it too much as she's not destined to be a dancer, but would definitely have gone to a dance physio if she was!). They need to work hard on their weight placement and my ds tells me it's a completely different kettle of fish doing pdd with a hypermobile partner 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 If I had to choose which to be, hypermobile or a bit tight, I'd choose the latter; it's much easier to work with - both for the student as well as the teacher. They are polar opposites. In her autobiography, Prima Ballerina Natalia Makarova described how difficult it was for her to maintain her strength since she has a very flexible body. She says that it was a constant battle - that she felt like she was always turning to jelly. When I interviewed Premiere Danseur Nikolai Tsiskaridse, he told me the same thing. He said that before a performance he has to be careful not to warm up too much as his body gets too loose. It is a problem to him. The tighter construction gives one the stability needed while working for flexibility - while those who are hypermobile are struggling just to stand correctly with muscles engaged. This is also true when working with a partner. The more tightly constructed dancer gives her partner something to hold onto. I experienced this personally - a story for another time. One of the ways to increase core strength is to divorce oneself from heavy reliance on the barre - this is a good but seldom discussed method for both types of dancers. This needs to be done constantly - at the beginning, several times during, and at the end of every exercise at the barre. The results can be quite signficant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 My hypermobile dd has lovely technique while holding the barre - everything goes to pot in the centre, and her teacher is always saying she is too tense and stiff. DD says if she tries to relax everything goes floppy and she'll end up a blob on the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regattah Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Whilst it is often true that hypermobility does not go hand in hand with strength, that is not always the case. My daughter is hypermobile but strong. She's had to do a lot of work on posture more because of her alignment being thrown off by her hypermobility than her core muscles not being strong enough. As far as the question of whether the flexible dancer should stretch more, it is a good question. What is the purpose of getting more flexible? I know as a teenager I certainly wasn't aiming for oversplit grand jetes; in fact I'd probably never seen them or even knew they were possible! Yet, I would still sit in splits with one leg up on a chair in front of me whilst watching tv. Maybe it just feels good to stretch? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 My hypermobile dd has lovely technique while holding the barre - everything goes to pot in the centre, and her teacher is always saying she is too tense and stiff. DD says if she tries to relax everything goes floppy and she'll end up a blob on the floor. The idea is to divorce oneself from the barre - while at the barre - for both the hypermobile as well as the more tightly constructed. The barre is an aid not a prop. Judicious use of the barre - letting go of it to test placement at frequent intervals (just before, during and after) every exercise will bring barre work and centre work into balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancerbabe82 Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I actually rarely do barre work these days. I mostly teach non-syllabus ballet classes and I do a warm up, then centre practice, pirouettes, adage and allegro. The only time my pupils do barre work is in the run up to an exam, to practice the exam settings, but I've found it really helps the kids with weight placement as well as strength and control :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I explained to my dd about being less reliant on the barre, I said try to imagine it's not there! We talked about acting, and trying to remember lines - when you know them, you don't need to clutch the script any more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lula-belle Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 As a dancer currenty in the industry and also a teacher I feel I have to point out that aswell as an art dancing is also a career and as in most industries the "keeping up with the jones'" approach has to be taken to do well in auditions, if you as a dancer can't better the girl next to you in flexibility, strength AND musicality then sadly the job is going to her, and when teaching pupils who have passion and talent for entering this dog eat dog world then the best you can do is prepare them for what the panels want. In the end a dancer must know that as flexibility is important at this time, you need strength and incredibly core stability to use their mobility safely and technically correct, as well as this dancing is first and for mostly an art and artistry is obviously a must. Going back to the original topic, I personally don't have a problem with over split, if done safely by a dancer who is already comfortably down in split, try a cushion under the back knee if painful, agree with the person who said it helps to get a perfect split in a grand jete. Just to finish with, I'd like to point out that someone posted about grand jetes having a floaty quality, and I agree that this is true for the romantic era where the move takes more of a glissade action, but grand jete means Large Throw, insinuating that the jump has height and strength behind it, wich is the case in classical ballets like don Quixote. Also watch the Esmerelda Variation on YouTube, this solo is a perfect example of pure strength, technique, musicality Along with amazing flexibility. Lula xx 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Hi Lula-Belle, Thanks for posting! And welcome to the forum. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 ust to finish with, I'd like to point out that someone posted about grand jetes having a floaty quality, and I agree that this is true for the romantic era where the move takes more of a glissade action, but grand jete means Large Throw, insinuating that the jump has height and strength behind it, wich is the case in classical ballets like don Quixote. Also watch the Esmerelda Variation on YouTube, this solo is a perfect example of pure strength, technique, musicality Along with amazing flexibility. Lula xx I agree there are different qualities to the grand jeté depending upon the ballet - such as Giselle vs Don Quixote PDD - but the problem is that the one is invading the other. We are losing the ballon quality of the grand jeté in Giselle in favor of the slashing bravura as seen in Don Q. We are losing the many nuances of the jump in favor of height and split just as we are in other parts of the ballet vocabulary; developpé and arabesque come quickly to mind. And - I see teachers spending more time and concern with the knifelike quality and spending little to any time emphasizing the beauty ond difficulty of the ballon quality of the romantic grand jeté. When was the last time anyone asked a question about that quality? When was the last time you had a class that addressed ballon? or the differences in grand jeté? As for the oversplit grand jeté, for me - that is a vulgarity wherever it happens. Unless - it is in a completely contemporary dance piece - but hence, it is not ballet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurora Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I don't think you can say outright "it's not ballet". There are new versions of choreography to traditional ballets all the time and even completely new ballets. If an over split leap happens to be included then so be it, that's the choreographers choice. If its not something you like then fine but it doesn't mean it's not ballet. Ballet is evolving, as do other things, all the time. Like I said, I'm not personally a fan of over splits but I acknowledge it's use and don't try and damn it by saying its just not ballet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 But - you see - that is precisely the point - since art is subjective - we can each damn or acknowledge as we wish. and so in my post above please note - I spoke only for myself: "As for the oversplit grand jeté, for me - that is a vulgarity wherever it happens. Unless - it is in a completely contemporary dance piece - but hence, it is not ballet. " 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurora Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) Two sentences, the "for me" didn't seem to read into the second one. Plus a ballet could be a new ballet and have all the usual steps but also include an over split leap, that surely wouldn't make it a completely contemporary piece. Edited May 27, 2012 by Aurora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 The word "unless" though beginning a new sentence connects them. oy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurora Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) What does 'oy' mean?? Ah I've just googled it, for those in the UK it's exasperation and dismay. Charming. Edited May 27, 2012 by Aurora 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 It's one of those catch all words - like a sigh. Can be a sigh of happiness or a sigh of relief, or a sigh of its a shame we are getting bogged down in challenging sentence structure. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lula-belle Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 To be fair, I do remember having many classes from both the upper schools I went to and at my local dance school when younger, In wich the different quality of jumps were discussed and practised, one teacher in perticular used to drill it into us with different enchainment for each quality, and being taught the appropriate times to use them, but maybe I've been fortunate in this!? Even so I suppose this is off topic now! Lula xx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Just to say that I went to see the Royal Ballet perform last week and not an oversplit or trick in sight! A beautiful performance and no need for anything else. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 To me, any art form - just like religion - is completely personal, and what one person loves, another finds loathsome. I like my ballet to be graceful, elegant, exciting where necessary, attractive to look at, and with music that evokes an emotional response in me. I prefer narrative pieces. I don't like "gymnastic" ballet; if I want a gymnastics floor routine then I will watch gymnastics. You would probably have to pay me (or at the very least give me a free ticket) to sit through 2 hours of Wayne McGregor's choreography. In many people's eyes I am probably a complete philistine, but it's horses for courses! I like what I like. That is the beauty of art. I can see where Anjuli is coming from, because FOR ME, Wayne McGregor's pieces are Contemporary and not my idea of ballet, and FOR ME, some aspects of ballet are too gymnastic and are losing their beauty. Fortunately, many many people disagree with me, and would rather poke sharp sticks in their eyes than watch "Nutcracker" or "La Fille". Let's not knock each other for having free will to like and dislike aspects of ballet; after all, that's the beauty of personal taste. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Although I appreciate that trends in choreography have moved on, I much prefer to watch something graceful. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomuchtallent Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 I like watching all types of dance and could never say only this way!And it is true to say that nobody can knock what another person likes!! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancerbabe82 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Let us not forget that this forum is entitled "doing dance" and perhaps should not ourselves get 'bogged down' in ballet, or any other dance form. The whole topic of discussion here is whether or not practicing over-splits is helpful, NOT our own personal opinion of the direction of classical ballet choreography in the 21st century (although I do acknowledge perhaps the connection between the two). As I mentioned earlier in the thread, having the passive range of motion (ie the flexibility of the muscles and joints without using ones own strength to hold them there) to get into an over-split will allow the dancer to get a greater active range of motion in all sorts of movements - not just in ballet choreography. Dancers who can only just get to a split passively will only be able to use about 150-160 degrees of this when they're actually dancing. Dancers of all genres are more likely to be employed, given places at colleges and schools, placed higher in competitions etc etc if they have this greater range of motion as it means they have the capacity to kick, developpe, leap, arabesque, roll around, tangle themselves up in knots or whatever their chosen dance genre requires them to do, better, and with less risk of overstretching/straining muscles. Of course I back this up by saying that this needs the strength to control this greater range of motion otherwise it's about as much use as Bambi on ice! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 (edited) In answer to: Let us not forget that this forum is entitled "doing dance" and perhaps should not ourselves get 'bogged down' in ballet, or any other dance form. The whole topic of discussion here is whether or not practicing over-splits is helpful, NOT our own personal opinion of the direction of classical ballet choreography in the 21st century (although I do acknowledge perhaps the connection between the two). This is the original question: Should dancers that are flexible do extra stretching to achieve over splits or is this getting to gymnasticy? My dd is flexible and i have noticed in the lessons that they are working on over splits on both ways.Will this help with anything or is it more of a show off thing?and is it nessasary? This (above) is the original question. It includes "or is this getting to gymnasticy?" This implies a request for the opinions of respondents for an assessent of where the art form is heading. Answers included Contemporary dance as well as ballet - so, for me, I don't see it as bogged down in ballet exclusively. The next sentence also implies this: "is it more of a show off thing?" This question, too, is asking for personal opinions on the artistic worth of an oversplit.. Whatever answer you give technical or not, the question is asking for an opinion bearing on where dance/ballet is going and how each of us feels about it as well as the worth of working on this specific type of stretching. There is no wrong or right of it - each answer is the opinion of one individual in whatever context (contemporary/ballet, etc) one chooses and thus I, for one, welcome it. edited to try to make it clear which post I was responding to - and what the original question was. Edited May 28, 2012 by Anjuli_Bai 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancerbabe82 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 It includes "or is this getting to gymnasticy?" This implies a request for the opinions of respondents for an assessent of where the art form is heading. Answers included Contemporary dance as well as ballet - so, for me, I don't see it as bogged down in ballet exclusively. The next sentence also implies this: "is it more of a show off thing?" This question, too, is asking for personal opinions on the artistic worth of an oversplit.. Implies. Semantics again. My post actually said "without getting bogged down in ballet or any other art form" - and was merely to suggest that there are more dance genres, other than ballet and contemporary that might be discussed herein. But of course if a person dislikes seeing an oversplit in ballet they are welcome to say it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Well, let's not forget where we all are - this is BALLETcoforum, after all. So it's unsurprising that the conversation usually gravitates towards ballet. ;-) I don't think it's constructive to argue about the grammatical construct of people's sentences. We probably all agree that different things appeal to different people. :-) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurora Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I wasn't arguing about the sentence construction, just explaining how I had understood it which was clearly incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 My post wasn't aimed at just one poster Aurora. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 As someone who was not blessed with a huge amount of flexibility naturally, and had to work extremely hard at it, I would probably have found over splits impossible. I say "probably", because fortunately nobody ever forced me to try to achieve them. Have I misunderstood, or are people saying that everyone has to achieve this, or they are very unlikely to get a place at school or in a company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ja Sm Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Like so many topics on this forum, I have found this thread extremely interesting. I love watching ballet, but I have never danced. I therefore love reading about the physicality of dance and the steps and positions required in it. I often get my own dd to explain your discussions to me! There are so many knowledgeable people on this forum. I may not agree with everything, but it's fascinating to read. On a personal note, i know when I enjoy watching something, though I don't always know why. Generally, it's because it affects me emotionally, makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up, brings tears to my eyes. Some of the very flexible positions make me squirm to look at, but to be honest I have not yet seen a ballet where the emphasis has been on them. So, do I like them in a ballet? I don't know. Dance, like all art to me, needs to mean something to me in the sense that I feel an emotional connection to it. Thanks again for your discussions and insight. You do make me smile! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancerbabe82 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I was trying to re-focus back to what I percieved was the original question of the thread - it appears I misunderstood it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomuchtallent Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 So,if you want perfect split jetes or high Développé or perfectly split ponches then you should practice oversplits providing you can do normal splits very easy,Is this right? And i think, but not sure that all the best dancers in the world today can achieve this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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