Another article dismissing UK dance training

[Pas de Quatre]

http://www.dancing-times.co.uk/news/item/1760-choreographers_concerns_uk_contemporary_training

 

So after being told in recent months that classical training in UK is lacking, it is now contemporary training that is being criticised! 

[taxi4ballet]

There are probably choreographers elsewhere in the world bemoaning the state of their own home-grown talent and saying they would much rather employ British-trained dancers!!!

[Miracle]

I feel that schools like Rambert are succeeding in their training and producing Not only great Ballet dancers but Contemporary dancers too. The proof is in the pudding if you go on to their website you can see where their graduates go.Very impressive and the school has a company which employees some of its graduates too. My DD would have loved to attend there. Top School.x

[JulieW]

I'm intrigued by the principal of Trinity Laban claiming to be the UK's no 1 dance school....

[Melody]

Looks as though they're getting that from a Guardian article. I'd be interested to know what that article actually said.

[2dancersmum]

The Guardian publishes university rankings guides each year based on number of factors including student success, staff to student ratios, finances etc.  These cover all UK universities and all subjects.  In the 2014 guide for subject : Dance & Drama, Trinity Laban was ranked number 1.  It has dropped to number 3 for 2015.  The guide only covers universities and does not include the vast majority of vocational dance schools in the UK

.http://www.theguardian.com/education/table/2013/jun/04/university-guide-drama-dance

Edited April 9, 2015 by 2dancersmum

[JulieW]

Ah ha thanks 2DM. Makes sense

[LinMM]

They (the Rambert) are my favourite non ballet company.

 

When watching in class their enthusiasm is very infectious!

 

However I don't know so much about contemporary TRAINING as a whole.

 

And am surprised Hofesh Shechter said he couldn't find UK dancers of enough CALIBRE to perform for his work!!

 

I don't think he's been looking in the right places.......or could it be ......just where performance skills are concerned at least ....there are more competitions to enter etc as in USA?

[veryskint]

My DS has auditioned twice in the last 12 months for Hofesh Shechter. On the first occasion it was an open audition and even though he arrived an hour early he was number five hundred and something. Despite the numbers every person was called back for a class later on in the day and personally seen by Hofesh. The second time each applicant booked a half hour time slot online. Again my DS was properly assessed. He enjoyed both auditions but was cut straight after class on both occasions. He would still try again in the future.

 

The point of my post is to say that Hofesh Shechter saw over 1000 young dancers on both occasions so he is definitely trying very hard to employ dancers who turn up at UK auditions.

 

I do not have an opinion about the quality of training at the schools mentioned as my DS did not attend any of them. However, I think if directors of companies are expressing an opinion I personally hope that schools are listening.

[Flora]

I felt depressed to read an article in the London Standard on the way home from work this evening that three top choreographers have apparently stated that UK students "lack rigour, technique and performance skills" and that UK students are "consistently outclassed by fitter stronger and more versatile counterparts from Asia, Europe and the USA" and that there is a "complete lack of high quality professional contemporary dance training" in UK.

 

If it's true I am pleased they have said so but it's a bit depressing as a parent when you are sinking thousands into your child's training. Maybe our children don't work hard enough and spend too much time on academics to compete with others in other countries who are home schooled etc but this article seems to be saying that UK training is itself an issue... 

 

 

 

 

 

[JulieW]

Flora - I've merged your comment into this existing thread

[Flora]

Thanks Julie- hadn't seen this thread. The DT article looks more balanced than the Evening Standard which really fans the fire with its title "Dance training in UK is so poor we have to hire foreign performers" 

[trog]

It's on the BBC news site today too. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-32236406

[Rosy]

Something of a sweeping statement from these 3 choreographers to say they can't find dancers in this country - Hofesh Shechter's website lists 16 dancers in his company, 5 of whom are UK trained.  It's a bit harder to find figures from the websites of Akram Khan and Lloyd Newsom, but AK has at least 3 UK trained dancers in his company at the moment.  Also worth bearing in mind that it is just the opinion of 3 choreographers.  There are other opportunities for contemporary dancers (UK trained or not) out there, if they have the talent and are prepared to work hard!

[taxi4ballet]

This is very disheartening - and I sincerely hope that people will watch the upcoming BBC Young Dancer of the Year competition and make up their own minds. I saw the trailer on BBC4 last night and it looks as though the programmes will be really good.

[tutoo2much]

And Tamara Rojo is not too keen on  how children are brought up,though I am not sure if she just means ballet students.............................

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-32195063

Edited April 10, 2015 by tutoo2much

[Pas de Quatre]

In fact some of the other Vocational dance degree courses are covered by the Guardian article to which 2dancersmum has posted the link above.  They come under the figures for the Conservatoire for Dance and Drama.  The Conservatoire is made up of four dance establishments, LCDS, NCDS, Central and Rambert, three drama, Bristol Old Vic, LAMDA and RADA and in addition the National Centre for Circus.

 

Reading Tamara Rojo's article, I don't think she is saying there is anything wrong with British training, just that in general the idea that you need hard work to be successful is being eroded.

[taxi4ballet]

Reading Tamara Rojo's article, I don't think she is saying there is anything wrong with British training, just that in general the idea that you need hard work to be successful is being eroded.

I think many young dancers who has just gone through the physical and emotional rollercoaster of the upper school audition rounds over the last few months might feel slightly insulted by the implication that they don't know how hard they have to work in order to be successful.

 

They have to work incredibly hard to even get into a school, let alone find any kind of job at the end of their training.

[Pas de Quatre]

I have re-read the whole article in the Radio Times and I still don't think she is talking about the Vocational dance students, who everyone in the business knows work incredibly hard.  She is talking about the type of society that "rewards fast success based on little talent or commitment" .... and goes on to ask "do we want to promote self-esteem and hard work?"

 

This article is a lead-in to the BBC Young Dancer of the Year competition and I think it is highly likely that the hard work and commitment needed to reach that level and succeed in the dance world will be highlighted during the competition.

[Stirrups36]

'Article 19' blog is always good for a little controversy. Here's their take on the press release and they do not sit on the fence. In fact, I don't think that phrase would ever be in their vocabulary!

http://bit.ly/1I0lLEo

[hfbrew]

'Article 19' blog is always good for a little controversy. Here's their take on the press release and they do not sit on the fence. In fact, I don't think that phrase would ever be in their vocabulary!

http://bit.ly/1I0lLEo

Really liked this!

Anyway just to say that ds once auditioned for one of the "4" mentioned and got to the final cut. Not bad for someone classically trained from 11...

[alison]

That reminds me that as I sat watching the new Shechter piece I wondered how many of the Royal Ballet's dancers he would have taken on if they'd auditioned for him.

 

Also, there was an article by Sarah Crompton in tonight's Evening Standard: http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/sarah-crompton-talent-is-worth-little-without-the-hard-graft-that-must-go-with-it-10167626.html?origin=internalSearch

[Harwel]

Thanks for posting that link Stirrups36. Thoroughly enjoyed their take on the article and the ensuing debate. I have always considered the best training for a contemporary dancer is ballet at the highest level then, given the individuals own desire, flair and talent, they have the physical training required to move sideways. I am now intrigued to look at the training mentioned in the European schools named.

 

The standard is another good article. Thanks Alison.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Harwel

[Melody]

I think in previous discussions about ballet training in the UK, it's been mentioned that some of the vocational schools don't push their students as hard as they might, and that the students feel they're being held back in order to make sure they're doing the simple stuff perfectly before being allowed to build on it. That same issue is showing up in Sarah Crompton's article about modern dance. I wonder if it's really a big deal or whether there are other things going on.

 

I remember a tennis coach telling me many years ago that British kids tended to mature later as tennis players than American kids, and I think I've also heard the same thing mentioned in commentary during Olympic ice skating competitions. I assume this must be something either educational or cultural, because I don't see how it could be a biological difference.

 

The thing is, reading the threads about members' DC at their auditions and trying to get into vocational school, it's hard to see how anyone could work any harder than those kids are doing without driving them to physical and/or mental harm. I wonder if the difference is the amount of academic work that children in different countries are having to do along with their training.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Melody

[Pas de Quatre]

Thanks Stirrups and Alison - both articles give food for thought!

[JulieW]

A fab "rebuttal" here

 

https://headtailconnection.wordpress.com/2015/04/10/a-rebuttal/

[Flora]

Melody- I agree.

 

Tamara Rojo reportedly trained 6 hours 6 days a week from 11 and studied in the evening. Not many teenagers have the drive to do that even supposing their parents give them that option

[Interested Parent]

Loving the 'meth mouse' ((-:

[Anna C]

Melody- I agree.

 

Tamara Rojo reportedly trained 6 hours 6 days a week from 11 and studied in the evening. Not many teenagers have the drive to do that even supposing their parents give them that option

This is a discussion we've had before, even on the "old" balletco. I remember reading about - I think - Nuñez, who apparently trained every day after school until 10 or 11pm, and joined a company aged 14. That just wouldn't be possible (or legal) here; for academic reasons but also the impossibility of finding a local ballet teacher that could or would give 6 hours of private tuition 5 evenings a week.

Had she also been taking 14 GCSEs as a teenager, something would have had to give. I don't see a lack of drive in our teenagers, but most of them do seem to want a decent set of academic qualifications as a backup, in case of career-changing injury, or lack of jobs after training. That to me suggests a realism in our teenagers, not a lack of drive.

[alison]

IIRC Rojo did much of her training *before* school hours, at the time when most normal people are still in bed

 

The blog Julie's linked to does give me pause, though. Obviously I know nothing about contemporary dance training at this level, but I wonder what it is that PARTS offers? Could it be that they are able to spend rather more time on the practical/technical side of things, whereas the UK establishments, by having to provide a degree course, need to provide more in the way of academics, which can be something of a distraction for those wanting to concentrate on dancing for a career? If - as has been mentioned before elsewhere, I think - students are doing a relatively small amount of practical dance, then making the transition into a company where they will need the stamina to dance for much of the day can be difficult.

[aileen]

I take the point that these are just three choreographers. The wider question is: are the graduates of our contemporary dance schools getting paid work on the completion of their courses? I have noticed the Rambert has several dancers who have been professional ballet dancers for a few years before joining the company. In a related article it was mentioned that one of the schools mentioned (Laban?) took dancers from diverse dance backgrounds including 'community dance' backgrounds. I'm not sure what this is but I assume that it does not mean full-time vocational training or many years of intensive non-vocational training. Perhaps there is just too much for the schools to fit into three years particularly if, as alison says, there is an academic component to the courses.

[Pas de Quatre]

These days contemporary dance is closer to the acting profession than to classical dance in the opportunities for employment.  Just as there are few repertory companies left for drama, there are only a few full time contemporary dance companies.  Most contemporary dance employment is for a specific role/project, whether for a few days, a few weeks or months.  Many dancers have what is called a "portfolio" career comprising some performing, some teaching and some ordinary jobs such as waiting on tables to make ends meet.  Just because you are not in a permanent company, does not mean you are not a successful dance artist!

 

Edited for grammar

Edited April 11, 2015 by Pas de Quatre

[rowan]

LCDS says 90% of its graduates are in further study or employment six months after graduating - but doesn't say what they are employed as.

 

I've come across this article in which two Americans compare their training at LCDS to what they'd done in the States.

http://www.4dancers.org/2012/09/london-contemporary-dance-schools-edge/  (from about halfway down the article)

 

West described the teaching methods at LCDS as very“different from those…in the States because of the emphasis on freedom and personal artistry”. Most of West’s training “was mostly about uniformity in technique classes”, and in terms of the UK, West maintained that there is a “greater infusion of dynamics in the postgraduate classes and efficiency” rather than a sole focus on technique.

 

Gracelynn Whyte agreed too that UK training is “focused more on personal style and less on technique” in developing an awareness of the self as a dancer of movement, which is given higher priority.

Whyte argued, interestingly, that the focus on personal style has “become a shift from perfectionism” to finding out whom you are as a dancer...