invisiblecircus Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Sorry invisiblecircus .....I should have said these are all ballet vocational schools I was talking about. No dd friend did not wear glasses to auditions but of course had to keep her red hair and freckles bless her I'm quite sure that red hair and freckles would not go against anyone at an audition for ballet school. She's obviously attained a very high technical standard with her marks in Adv 1 and 2 but maybe the schools thought she didn't have the right body, feet, turnout or performance quality for them. Those are things which might not go against her in an exam. I mean, even if she had a good body type, the differences at this level can be so small that she could be rejected because the panel thought another candidate was slightly better. As for the other girl, I don't believe she can be "poor," if she has got finals for not just one but several top vocational schools with high graduate employment rates. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Sorry invisiblecircus .....I should have said these are all ballet vocational schools I was talking about. No dd friend did not wear glasses to auditions but of course had to keep her red hair and freckles bless her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 OMG! I don't believe you just wrote that a child is less attractive because they have red hair and freckles! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishballetmom Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Um as the mother of a beautiful red headed little ballerina I am really hoping you don't seriously think red hair is a hindrance to a ballet career . I think we will not give up hope quite yet, she is still very young but I hope her gorgeous red hair never fades! 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggy13 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I didn't write that and would never dream of doing so, I meant less glamorous and ballet perfect. My daughter is blonde and blue eyes but she would also call herself less attractive than the young lady I was talking about. Why not accept the red hair and freckles perfect dancer but accept the one that struggles with simple technique, it became a joke apparently that every time the girls saw this young lady at auditions they said to each other that was one place gone before the first exercise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petalviolet Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I'm sure meggy13 didn't mean to imply that red hair and freckles are a negative attribute!! There are a few girls at our local school who, although unrelated, have exactly the same colour of absolutely divine red hair. Titian? I don't know the exact shade, but it looks stunning with their pale lilac leotard and so eye catching. My DD looks positively washed out in comparison! I did hear from an ex dancing friend of mine that at her old school a mother had actually dyed her daughter's hair before an audition! I don't know from what to what though.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Hi meggy13 It would seem unlikely that a girl would get multiple offers from schools if she wasn't up to it - as we know from these boards it's incredibly difficult to get finals. Have you seen the girl dance or is it a report via someone else? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I don't know what anyone else thinks but the conversation has turned to a personal tone with individuals who might/might not be recognisable. Mods your thoughts? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishballetmom Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I was just being tongue in cheek and added smiley face, I didn't really think she thought that! We are just at the start of the process and our next try for vocational is in four years, we just tried RBS this year for year 8 more as an experience, didn't really think she had a chance. We will only try if she is still as passionate as she is now. I think this forum is great for insight as to what to expect. And I have to admit I now keep coming back to cheer on the many dc trying to make their dreams a reality! There aren't many other girls wanting to make ballet a serious pursuit where we live and it is nice to find a place to ask questions and feel normal lol! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I don't know what anyone else thinks but the conversation has turned to a personal tone with individuals who might/might not be recognisable. Mods your thoughts? I agree Kat09. I am very uncomfortable with this conversation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggy13 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 My friend with the ginger haired beautiful dancer has seen my post and is happy with it x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petalviolet Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I think we should lock this thread down!! Do you know why? I can't think of anything that would truly cement- perhaps even elevate my personal participation in this wonderful forum than to have contributed (albeit uselessly) to a locked thread. It's a notoriety I previously could only dream about......go on...... I would become a legend..... It might even push me from 'member' to 'advanced member'. My only other option is to embark on a thread entitled 'applying for RBS JA- your thoughts?" Now that would get you locked down straight away. Only out of ennui though- not drama. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggy13 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 My friend with the ginger haired beautiful dancer has seen my post and is happy with it x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 My friend with the ginger haired beautiful dancer has seen my post and is happy with it x That maybe so meggy13 but there are 2 girls mentioned in your first post and if the other is as striking as you say she might be easy to identify and I for one feel that is unfair. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Maybe if you had a daughter who was black or mixed race, or were the girl with red hair and glasses who was being talked about as if she were somehow not beautiful enough for that reason, you might understand that identifying young people as being less worthy, because of a personal attribute other than this specific to ballet, is wrong. And to talk about a girl who has achieved places in top ballet schools as having poor technique is also unfair. She may have all the technical facility, theatricality, musicality, physical proportions and suitability for classical training (to quote RBS) and that elusive x factor too and good luck to her. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I think this thread in itself is a perfect example of how rumours start - people give an opinion on why someone has or hasn't been selected and it gets passed on to the next person and the next - with the original opinion and circumstances in which the opinion is given being lost in the process. I have many times heard people moan about schools and their audition processes and give reasons why these schools are not good enough for their or why their DC has not been accepted - I think its often part of human nature to try and find a reason or justification for a decision - especially to cover disappointment. But when this personal opinion is passed on it can soon become 'rumour' as it takes on a life of its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Exam results are about the past - i.e. what the candidate has learnt. Auditions are about the future, what the audition panel believes their school can do with the candidate. The two are not always the same, many dancers with excellent exam results do not have the attributes to be a professional dancer. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Very well said, Angel. Although the ballet world is not massively diverse, it is getting better. There are major role-models coming through for our young people, dancers like Misty Copeland, an established US superstar, Celine Gittens, who's just been dancing Swanhilda in BRB's Coppelia and Michaela DePrince who was in First Position is now with Dutch National Ballet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelly the Elephant Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) I've been reading this forum for quite a few years and at this time of year I like to think of it as "Silly Season". Why? Because there are many people auditioning, some are successful and some are not. Tension is high and for everyone involved it can be a very tricky time. It happens every year. People reporting about how someone got in and no one can see why.......how someone is perfect but didnt get finals etc etc. Then someone will say something that others dont like or misconstrue and everyone gets a bit 'stoppy'! I'm not wanting to belittle anyone's experiences but I'm sure no body on this thread has meant to be offensive. It's very difficult to convey tone of voice in the written word so maybe ladies (and gentleman as there are a few!) we should all remember that this is 'Silly season' and thankfulky its nearly over, for this year anyway!emoticon to hopefully convey a tongue in cheek tone! There was an emoticon in there but it hasn't shown up! Edited March 2, 2015 by Nelly the Elephant 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Um as the mother of a beautiful red headed little ballerina I am really hoping you don't seriously think red hair is a hindrance to a ballet career . I think we will not give up hope quite yet, she is still very young but I hope her gorgeous red hair never fades! Moira Shearer,anyone???? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Iana Salenko (Steven McRae's frequent guest partner) and my fave, Ksenia Ovsyanick. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Until I became a silver vixen, I had nearly black hair and always wished it was red! I have deeply envied an ex-colleague for years because of her red hair. I adore red hair!! There have been a couple of titian haired ladies at BRB that I can think of and, of course, Ed Watson and Steven McRae currently at RB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisiblecircus Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I agree. As we've seen from other threads, it's frustrating when you go for an audition, feel you did well then don't get a place and are not told why. It's only natural to look for a reason, it is a way of consoling ourselves. I have better technique than her yet she was accepted and I wasn't, it must be because she looks more glamourous. I made it to finals but didn't get a place, it must be because I had a bigger bust than the other girl. The truth is, none of us know why one candidate is selected over another so if we know someone who is successful when we weren't, it is easy to look at what that person has got that we haven't and believe that to be the reason when the reason is probably something entirely different. I auditioned and was accepted for a European school, and I remember one of my friends announcing that I was probably only accepted because I was foreign and if I had auditoined for a British school I wouldn't have been accepted. She herself had auditoned for a British school and didn't get in, so I guess it was her way of dealing with that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTL Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Sylvie Guillem. The half-Kenyan Francesca Hayward, one of the Royal Ballet's most promising. Surely by now people have got used to ballerinas who don't look like England's own part-Brazilian Margot Fonteyn! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 There was a blonde haired girl with me at Northern. Her mother used to speak to my mum in the school canteen while waiting for us to finish. She used to say to my mum she doesn`t think her daughter will make it as a ballet dancer one day because her daughter is blonde,and the "fashion " or "stereotype" was the Margot Fonteyn,Alicia Markova black haired,pale dancer type. Anyway,a couple of weeks later,both me and my mum noticed this girl`s hair was a shade darker than it had been. About a month or so passed,and it was darker again. I don`t think [although I could be wrong] that it was a coincidence that this girl`s hair was naturally becoming darker;more likely that her mother had been subtly and gradually darkening it so she would "look more like a dark haired ballet dancer". Unbelievable but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletdancer22 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Come on everyone we are all in this together I know we can all question the Whys how and ifs but in the end it is out of anyone's control the Schools choose who they want to attend there schools and there is nothing anyone can do about it . Let's wish everyone goos luck in their journey be it successful or not .! 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeliB Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Personally I have wished I had red hair all my life (it runs in the family but I have a feebly reddish brown version), not that I ever had the opportunity to be a dancer anyway! I think positive discrimination is a really thorny issue when it comes to professions requiring a specific physical ability. In general few people would argue against having PD in academic based professions, and to be honest I don't quite see why other professions should be exempt- unless one is saying that people from BME populations rarely possess the physical attributes required for that profession (which would be pretty hard to justify). Surely the whole point of PD is that you DO appoint/accept people who are not quite as good (at the time of appointment) because you accept that their path to that point is likely to have been much more challenging AND because you have decided (as a society) that there should be a mix of people in the profession that more accurately reflects the population as a whole. I personally feel it would be a great thing to have more ethnically diverse people in ballet as then the specification for what is considered the ideal ballet body type might become slightly less narrow and that can only be a good thing. I recall Michaela dePrince saying in First Position that she had been told black ballet dancers were 'too' athletic and how she wanted to challenge this stereotype and be known as a delicate dancer- i thought this was so sad that she was made to feel being athletic and having a big jump (and she has a HUGE jump) was a negative skill... Anyway, I know there are arguments for and against positive discrimination but I think you have to be either for or against, you can't say it's ok in one area but not in another.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooZoo Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I see that I opened a can of worms with my PD comment. I think CeliB puts the argument well. I certainly did not mean to imply that anyone's child who is black/mixed race/British Asian etc has got where they are with anything other than huge hard work and talent. I just observe that when my DS went to state school in a provincial area there were more ethnic minority children at that school than at his current vocational one in a large City and I think that is a shame. Perhaps in time Outreach programmes will manage to address the imbalance. Or maybe there is no imbalance, but my perception is that there is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 In my last year at school my girls' grammar school was joined together with a boys' secondary modern school. Boys from the SM were accepted into the 6th form without any specific qualifications. For example in the girls' school we had done Physics, Chemistry and Biology to O level and the boys' school had only done general science. The pupils were all being taught together and there was an obvious imbalance of learning that actually caused the girls to be held back. I am against any form of discrimination and that could included positive discrimination in some cases. The results of auditions and (in the non-dancing world) interviews are so subjective that no-one can predict results. All I can say is good luck to all. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Thanks all- interesting debate... Could I add one thing: unfortunately I do think the speculation/"silly season" is inevitable - and actually very understandable - because when it comes to your own child you really have no idea and have to depend on other people telling you whether your child can dance or not. I always find my DD amazing to watch so it's pointless asking me if she is any good. I'm not sure why I am so biased because I have no allusions that she is hopeless at her Maths homework and quite good but far from brilliant at her French homework... The other thing is I think many on this forum have examples of strange decisions having been made for other people's children, where the passage of time (and the fact the dancer later gets in plus immediately does amazingly or doesn't do well and is more or less immediately thrown out) proves a bad call must have been made initially. For a non-dancer like me that is a bit hard to understand because even though I appreciate mistakes happen in all walks of life you do tend to think looking back "if I could so obviously tell she is great/awful and I know nothing about ballet relatively speaking why couldn't they?"... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeliB Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I completely agree Flora, and I think part of the problem is that often our DKs are in a family that has little or no prior experience of ballet/dance. In fact I would venture to suggest that those who post on the 'doing dance' forum are more likely to be in this situation and that's why we/they are here (I can't imagine ex principal dancers suddenly start haunting BCF when their children start ballet lessons- they already have all the knowedge anyone would need!). This contrasts with maths/english etc because we all have had to go through at very least a basic education to age 16. Some of us will have even more academic experience. We use this skills daily in the vast majority of careers and in our daily lives. So evaluating one's child's ability to do maths etc is not so hard (up to a certain skill level of course). Plus we have a huge cohort of other children (their entire school) to contextualise them and their ability/level/achievement/progress. With ballet, I for one had been to only one ballet (with my grandmother aged about 5) and never done a single lesson of dance ever. There are no dancers in either side of the family ever in our history. Before DS went to vocational school I had met only ONE other parent of a boy and even subsequently I only meet other parents at school shows once a year to say hello. So we have had to navigate with DS through totally unknown territory. This makes it really hard as a parent to try and explain to your children (for whom you are, certainly pre teen, the fount of all knowledge) why and how the system works....There are very few absolute measures of ability, and those that exist (eg RAD exams) don't seem to show a particularly good correlation with success at vocational or professional level. Under these circumstances its hardly surprising that we spend our lives speculating and trying to make sense of this infuriatingly subjective, chance ridden and often seemingly random environment!! It's a wonder we haven't all gone grey (then again, it's online- maybe we all have!!!) 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I'm def grey! Thank goodness for hair colouring..... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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