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Grrrrrr. Bit of a rant about people who don't "get it".


Pups_mum

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Katymac's comment on the "News from Upper School Auditions" thread, about people's reactions to er DD's great news touced a nerve with me today, but I thought I'd start a new thread rather than derail that one.

Just why is it that dance, particularly ballet, is so undervalued by the majority? Even compared to other art forms? My son is on the Gifted and Talented list at school for music, and yes, he is quite good, but his music talent is not, in my opinion at least, as great as DD's dance talent, which the school has never taken the sligtest bit of interest in. The school wekly newsletter regularly contains congratulations to pupils on music exam success, sporting achievements etc, even those  from out of school activities, but DD has never had a mention.

After much thought, DD has finally decided to apply for post 18 dance courses rather than an academic degree, and whilst a few people who know er well have been pleased and said things like "Glad she's seen the light at last!" most people have asked me if I'm ok with that, or aren't I disappointed. The inference seems to be that since both my husband and I have "normal" professional careers, we would view anything different to that as being failure. Is it such an unreasonable thing to try to support your child's ambitions even though you do understand the difficulties? Or to think that doing something they love might actually be more important than their earning potential?

Oh, and my husband has annoyed me today. DD brought home a dvd of what is almost certainly the most demanding dance, both technically and artistically she has ever done - a contemporary duet that she used to do in festivals,though has had to stop as her partner has now gone into full time training. It is an absolutely beautiful dance, and they got over 90 every time they did it in festivals if I recall rightly. And more importantly, it's a piece that always really moved the audience and DD, her partner, and their teacher are justly proud of it. My husband never comes to watch festivals so had never seen it, and DD asked him to watch the DVD with us, which he did, but stood in the doorway to watch, made a few supercillious comments and left. I know he doesn't "get it".....but even so.....

Yes, I am very annoyed. No need for replies really. I just wanted to let off some steam somewhere where I wouldn't be laughed at.

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I get it. When dd went off to voc school at 11, apparently the siblings took it upon themselves to have a family discussion behind my back because they thought it was a bad decision. That was 7 years ago and I just found out recently (by accident) so am letting it go but geez! 

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We've had much the same thing for a few years now, but we are now beginning to hear the sound of pennies dropping among friends and family ;) They've stopped going on about A-levels and university and it's finally dawning on them that this isn't some childish fantasy that she will grow out of...!

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I kind of understand it though as a few years ago I wouldn't have "got it" myself!! I knew nothing about dancing. But like you I really wish her school could acknowledge her achievements. She is an academic high flier too and when her teachers ask about third level and I mention dance they look flabbergasted!

 

My problem  is that my family are from the performing arts world and they,having lived "the dream", are always cautioning DD against a career in the Arts. They know how difficult it is and how much rejection, frustration and unemployment lies ahead.

 

This means that, particularly my mother, finds it very difficult to praise DD's achievements without a doom laden caveat attached!

 

It's frustrating and upsetting but I get where they are coming from too and at least we are not going into anything blind.

 

I think that surrounded by such negativity it can be hard to hold onto the passion but it does mean that any kid who does get there really really wants it, not just for glory and recognition as they just don't tend to get that from outside their dancing world.

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It must be so frustrating. I remember similar negative reactions when I was training. Not from relatives,but from neighbours where we lived.And also some teachers at school.  The neighbours were questioning why my mum was spending what was for her a small fortune for me to go to the Northern`s children`s classes for 3 years. I don`t think there`s really a lot you can do with people who don`t "get it". The only time they probably WILL get it is if and when that said child eventually becomes a professional dancer. You should have heard the reactions from people when I won a place at Urdang when I was 16 then 2 years later when I told them I had successfully auditioned for the Moulin Rouge. Suddenly it was,"Oh I knew she`d do well one day" [Really???]. Just take a deep breath,smile and say nothing. 

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Oh Oh Oh can I add to that 'thequays'?  The 'of course she did' comment when you mention a success. I find that comment so belittling! Not sure why but I think because it makes light of the fierce competition in this industry and takes away from the hard work put into the accomplishment.... just my rant.

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My dd went to our local school up until 16 when she went into vocational training and never once was she mentioned in a school newsletter or recieved encouragement from staff apart from the performing arts staff. When she chose her GCSEs the head of year told her she needed to cut back on out of school commitments and concentrate on GCSEs as they were the most important thing. He seemed most put out when rather than agree I told him that if dd wished to be a classical dancer getting into a vocational program at 16 was more important as GCSEs could always be retaken later. Then I had to write a letter to confirm I was supportive of her choices as they were predominately arts based and not more generalised therefore limiting her options! But this was a conscious choice to allow her to gain maximum grades without struggling too much as she is dyslexic (which we suspected but school refused to diagnose - she was formally diagnosed at voational school). She achieved 2 A*, 5A and 5B  and when it came to collecting GCSE certificates the fact that one of the Governors was on the board at the RAD was 'bigged' up; those who had moved onto the grammar school mentioned but still nothing about dd even though she had passed RAD adv 1 with distinction by then, had danced leading roles with NYB, was at Central and been told by teachers that she got 100% in her drama GCSE and the highest mark in school for dance. Of course many sporting achivements were announced such as being picked for county teams!

Anyway many years (and a first class honours degree) later dd is performing professionally and lo and behold she is contacted by the school asking if she would send a message to current students telling them about her achivements. The school also ran a trip to watch her show although not one member of staff had bothered previously. I was very proud when she replied that she didn't feel it would be appropriate to mislead current pupils into thinking they could achieve the same sort of success she has done purely based on the lessons they had at school which was the sort of message they were trying to promote and aside to me she said 'They never supported me at all when I was there so why should I do anything for them now'. Their loss in the end then!

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I'll be the first to admit I don't really get it. I don't know anyone in our family or friends in dance careers or performing arts so I have no idea what to expect. most of our family have all been military and I certainly didn't grow up with dance classes or any talk of anything fancy or arty. But so what? Whether you get it or not doesn't matter - it's about supporting someone to persue their dreams no matter what that might be :)

 

One thing as far as schools go is this "exceptional circumstances" rule that seems to translate into time off for ballet exam or performance license or audition being perceived as bad parent that deserves a fine for taking a child out of school on the odd occasion! Drives me nuts!

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One thing as far as schools go is this "exceptional circumstances" rule that seems to translate into time off for ballet exam or performance license or audition being perceived as bad parent that deserves a fine for taking a child out of school on the odd occasion! Drives me nuts! 
 
I'm surprised at that annaliesey, my GDD gets all the backing possible from her school for the many days she misses, for auditions, exams etc etc.

 

Edited by Vonrothbart
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Don't start me on lack of support from schools! When dd went for her audition for RBS I went in to school to let them know in advance why she would be off, got a slightly cool "ok". A few days later I received in the post a letter from the chair of governors saying that taking a child out of school in term time for a holiday was against school rules and that I was jeopardising her education as children who missed school go on to underachieve in their SATS. I simply put it in an envelope and returned it marked " sent in error". I really wanted to remind them of it when she got her sats results, she was the only pupil who scored 100% across all 3 maths exams and the only one to achieve level 6 reading ! She went on to vocational school but the school never acknowledged her achievements, in dancing or academics

Edited by along for the ride mum
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I enjoyed reading your 'Rant' and believe me you are not on your own. Children who venture on the long, hard, disciplined  journey of dance are in my opinion very much in control of their lives as it takes a lot of courage to lead a different pathway to everyone else in their academic class at school. They will experience so many different emotions in their teenage years ranging from happiness/ success to extreme sadness/frustration and push themselves to the limit daily with absolutely no help from their academic schools! Juggling GCSE exams and auditions for vocational schools can be very stressful together with teachers not understanding why your DD wants to live home at sixteen, live in London and train to be a dancer instead of doing A levels and university!!

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Spooky it's even worse now and very probably your daughter would not be allowed to take both dance and drama as subjects.  I know our local school no longer allows it and DD was the last cohort to get to do this.  They suggested textiles instead for DS, a complete misunderstanding of how creativity manifests - i.e. it is not the case that if someone is creatively blessed in dance and drama they will be equally blessed in visual arts.  It's like they see "creativity" as an amorphous blob of a character flaw that just needs to be catered for in the most desultory way.  I will say that if we do not keep on making a noise about this the creative subjects are in danger of disappearing from school curricula entirely.  Whilst I agree that school dance does not prepare students for a life in dance (interesting that students are told they will not succeed well in GCSE music if they are not studying an instrument in outside lessons, but not told this about dance), if creative subjects continue to be sidelined as they have been for the past few years, the concern is that they will seem less and less relevant, with follow-on consequences that are varied, but all dire.

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What I don't get is how they think DD wopld be better doing a Btec in Catering or Child development rather than this

 

Alevels are out of the question at our local college; I know very clever (A*) girls doing 4/5 hours a night self study....so no out of school dance then!

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Really in this day and age when companies are crying out for employees who are resoursceful and creative does society insist that the only valuable qualifications are academic ones? Having studied to PHD level I know some people who are academically brilliant but could't colour in a picture.... whats so good about that!

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Perhaps I ought to say my dd was not saying that GCSE dance was not a valuable subject to study. In fact she picked up a lot of extra knowledge and skills from it that she didn't get from her out of school dancing such as choreographic skills; an ability to analyse and critique work and exposure to a much broader range of dance forms. However the school was trying to 'sell' the course as preparation for a possible career in professional dance which of course it isn't. DD took many hours of dance outside school, was an RB JA/MA then Central Pre-Senior, did summer schools, NYB and local dance company performances which was not being made clear to current pupils. They wanted to say look this person did dance at school and look where they are now!

 

Dramascientist - I also have a scince PhD and totally agree with your comment about academic high-flyers lacking in other areas (often common sense in my opinion).

 

I think so many people in positions of influence forget that every person is unique. We all have different but equally valuable talents and society would just not function if we were all the same. Science and the arts should be viewed as complimentary not in competion with one another.

 

Personally I love quoting Winston Churchill when asked why not cut arts funding during the war and his reply was ' Why then what would we be fighting for?'

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I am our schools marketing rep and I put something in every time about our performing arts students.just did a lovely feature on where they have all secured places at. I am mindful to cover everyone as much as possible. Maths challenge...sports success. High achievers and also students who are 'just doing something good'. We are lucky that our school recognises the need of marketing and since being in post I have changed our reporting systems. Major biased tho cause I love the arts :) x

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Round us schools have a mixture of attitudes. We have been lucky and both primary and secondary schools very supportive. They can classify it as 'education in an alternative setting' and not as unauthorised absence. If they want to.....

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When my mother informed my grammer school that I would be leaving in the middle of the year to go to a performing arts school, the headmistress was so distraught about it that she actually came out of her sacred study to talk to me and try to dissuade me.  "You won't be able to go on to university from there", she admonished me - "what will you do if you don't succeed?"  "Well Miss I can always be a housewife"  was the rather pathetic reply that I remember uttering to this day!  I have to say that when I got the B.Phil with first class honours in Ballet and Contextual Studies through the RAD, I really wished that she were still alive to see how wrong she'd been. 

 

My youngest son has just got an MA from UCL in English Lit. and even that is looked upon as rather a waste of time by most people I mention it to.  What does he want to do with it? they ask politely. Go on to a PhD, I reply. How do I explain to them how brilliant his ideas are?  Or how he uses psychology and philosophy and science, as well as creativity and imagination to write his works? No I don't suppose he's ever going to earn mega wages if he achieves his dreams, but should we measure success by how much we earn?  

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This 'not getting it' is nothing new. I am getting on in years more than a bit now but, when at Grammar School, my parents were called in to be told that they should make me cut back on my two sessions of dancing classes per week. There was no evidence of their affecting my homework or my grades and nothing was said to pupils undertaking other extra-curricular activities. My problem was that I could occasionally be seen performing on stage and that seemed to be disapproved of. On reflection, I think that the teachers' attitude may well have taken the shine off my enthusiasm for dance which only returned when I rediscovered ballet as a member of the audience some fifteen years later.

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This topic reminds me that my dd had virtually no support from the her secondary school apart from the dance teacher. She suggested we just told the school we had an "appointment" for ballet exams. By the time she was auditioning for vocational schools at 16 they must have got the message as no one ever asked my dd what A'levels she was going to do. They didn't object to time off for auditions as long as we didn't clash with exams. Surely auditions are just like university interviews just a couple of years early!

But I do remember speaking to a work colleague after my dd was at vocational school at only 16 and living 200 miles away. The colleague said to me that she loved her daughter far too much to let her do that. And her daughter was a dancer too.

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Ds never got much recognition either in junior school except from individual teachers.

 

However time off as long as performances were properly licensed was no problem.

 

In Year 6 there were quite a few children attending interviews/entrance exams for independent schools so because dd had been subject to some nastiness at school about her dancing we wanted to keep her auditions quiet so we told the school she had an assessment for an independent school.

 

On her return the secretary asked her how she had done & did she manage to answer all the questions!!!!

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Great stuff. I really think the dancing helps the academics. They compliment (or refresh) each other.

 

I was thinking of starting a similar thread, but on a slightly different tack. Why don't we make a list of benefits/advantages that our DC get from ballet that can be useful in any work or life setting. I'll try kicking things off.

 

Social Skills such as: 

Teamwork

Working to deadlines

Conflict Management

Sharing

Discussion

Networking

 

Physical Benefits such as:

Fitness

Elegance (?)

Weight management (??)

Training

Exercise

Nutrition

 

Creative skills such as:

Imagining

Visualizing

Inventing

Outlining

Composing

Editing

Teaching

 

Over to you… When it's complete, we can print it off and present it to those head teachers, neighbors, spouses, etc. and pin it on the wall to remind us all when we have to fork out for yet another pair of pointe shoes. :)

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I definitely agree with some of the rants about schools being unsupportive!

Although I think the thing that has bothered me the most is more about parental support- my mum is so incredibly supportive and would do anything to help me succeed; but my dad just doesn't seem to care at all. He pays for my classes & summer schools- but often doesn't even know which summer school I'm going to, despite having signed the cheque to pay for it! Whenever I try to talk to him about my auditions, he just becomes frustratingly unresponsive, and tries to change the subject. I am very "academically gifted" apparently, and daddy always wanted me to be a Lawyer, but obviously dance is my passion, which I am going to pursue! I just feel as if I'm a disappointment to him- he never says good luck to me before auditions, which in a way I can understand- he wouldn't wish me luck because he doesn't want me to get a place- I suppose a tiny part of me wishes that I could make him proud by going to Oxford university etc, but I know that's never going to happen because it simply isn't what I want to do...

Sorry for the little rant!!!

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swanprincess - I can almost guarantee that you are not a disappointment to your dad - he probably just does not know how to support you other than paying for your classes and summer schools because what you are aspiring to is just so far removed from his own experience and so far out of his comfort zone. A few years ago those words could have been my DDs as your dad sounds so like my dh - he only ever wished DD good luck if I told him to, never remembered anything she was doing and went seemingly reluctantly to any performances. I think part of him did not want DD to get a place anywhere because he would far rather she did A levels and went to university, following the conventional route and staying longer at home. Even now it drives me nuts that when we go and see DD perform, he only ever comments ' yes I enjoyed that. yes it was ok' Yet I know that he is extremely proud of our DD and he has got better at letting her know it. If he really didn't care or support you, he would not pay or would put obstacles in your way. My friends DD has a lot of support from her mother and grandparents but her dad thinks dance is a waste of time and from the age of 15 told her so and refused to pay for classes. So give your Dad the benefit of the doubt - its a dad's job to worry about their little girls.

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This topic reminds me that my dd had virtually no support from the her secondary school apart from the dance teacher. She suggested we just told the school we had an "appointment" for ballet exams. 

Well, our school has had a creative approach to authorised absences as follows:

 

Exams & performing with EYB etc = "Approved Sporting Activity"

 

Open days, workshops, MoveIt etc = "Educational Visit"

 

Auditions = "Interviews"

 

All of those are on the school's 'list'.

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