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Upper School Finals - pointe work


Direction_of_your_dreams

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Hello,

 

First proper post, so if in the wrong place, please do move me!

 

Does anyone know how much pointe work will be done in final auditions for ballet upper schools, in particular, what level they need to be working at? My dd has heard rumours of 16 fouettés on pointe but her dance teacher has said she doesn't think that will be the case. Given other posts that I have read especially re foreign students and their amazing abilities, I am wondering if it is more truth than myth?

 

In general, we have also been told to expect the final to be a much harder class than the preliminary, any tips or sharing of your DD's experiences would be gratefully appreciated.

 

Thank you!

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Hello, welcome to the forum! I'm not sure about Royal and Elmhurst, but I found it interesting that in the Northern audition (they just have one audition as opposed to prelims & finals) the only pointework was a simple echappe exercise at the barre, followed by echappes and releves passes in the centre. On the other hand, the pointework at the ballet theatre UK audition last year was slightly harder; echappes & passes at the barre, then echappes, pique turns, chaines and courus in the centre. So it varies- but in my opinion I wouldn't expect any fouettes to be involved, certainly not 16! In the Advanced 2 syllabus there are 12 fouettes en pointe, I doubt a school would expect its candidates to be beyond adv2 level! This is just my opinion & I may be completely wrong, good luck to your DD for the finals x

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Hi ,my daughter auditioned successfully at several schools last year and says that the pointe work was not too challenging ( she couldn't do a fouetté en pointe at the time) there will always be some more advanced but they might be lacking in other areas. Be the best that you can be but don't allow the fear of what you can't do detract from what u can. Good luck with finals everyone xx

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We've heard about the 16 fouettes too!  DD is going to try and practice at class next week, she's never really tried them... but I can't see they will expect them to do too much that they haven't even been taught yet.  As long as they show determination and have a go rather than crumbling into tears I'm sure it will be fine! 

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The Fouettes remind me of my first term at Urdang. We didn`t have to do them in the audition,but one of our teachers,Len Martin,in his first class asked us all to do 32 Fouettes en pointe. Only one student,who was in RAD Advanced [the old Advanced] could do them. The rest of us were either in the Elementary or Intermediate grades,and had never been taught them,not even on demi pointe. 

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I would be very surprised if RBS asked for fouettés! At mine (many moons ago) we were required to do pose in various positions and pose developpes, pose pirouettes en dehors an en dedans, chaines, petit soutenu, emboîte,couru, pose en arriere in arabesque and releve en avant/arriere in arabesque. Sissones releve, Double pirouettes en dehors/en dedans. We did a bout 4 exercises which incorporated these one of which was a grand allegro exercise to see if we could dance in our shoes!

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Guest dancer2027

Hi I can confirm from a friend who did rbs finals last year that they were asked to do fouettes en pointe. Some other finals had pirrouttes, poses, chained etc I think it depends on the schools and what they want

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Thank you everyone. I've told her to be prepared for them and to just give them a good try with a smile on her face! I guess we won't know until it actually happens so not point in worrying and definitely not to spend the audition stressing about it! As you say, they will all have different strengths and weaknesses, so good luck to all our dc's, may they all shine like the stars they are! Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, it is very much appreciated.

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Do the upper schools give any idea of what they expect applicants to be able to do? Why don't they just say, for example, 'female applicants will be expected to do four consecutive fouettes en pointe' or whatever? It would stop all this speculation and local teachers would know what level their students should be working at and would be able to advise them accordingly. If an applicant can't do fouettes just before the audition it's too late to do anything about it. I don't know whether it's better to try them if you've never done them or whether it's better to say that you haven't been taught them and sit that exercise out.

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These are the top ballet schools in the Uk and also rank extremely highly within the ballet schools worldwide..therefore why shouldn't they ask for that little bit more from the candidates at the final auditions? If the candidates are already at vocational schools they will have already had a taste of solo comps and will have already been taught some advanced steps..if you are likely to "burst into tears" because you can't or don't know how to do an exercise at an upper school final audition then to be quite frank you are not in the right place..you need to be determined and ready to have a go and mentally tough if you want to survive in the ballet school world and beyond...it's something I feel strongly about. You need "fire in your belly" to quote a very well respected retired vocational school artistic director! I truly admire these kids who not only stay for the whole of lower school, make it into upper school and then graduate and land a company contract..it's both a physically and mentally demanding process for them. Best of luck to all those currently going thro the audition process!

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These are the top ballet schools in the Uk and also rank extremely highly within the ballet schools worldwide..therefore why shouldn't they ask for that little bit more from the candidates at the final auditions? If the candidates are already at vocational schools they will have already had a taste of solo comps and will have already been taught some advanced steps..if you are likely to "burst into tears" because you can't or don't know how to do an exercise at an upper school final audition then to be quite frank you are not in the right place..you need to be determined and ready to have a go and mentally tough if you want to survive in the ballet school world and beyond...it's something I feel strongly about. You need "fire in your belly" to quote a very well respected retired vocational school artistic director! I truly admire these kids who not only stay for the whole of lower school, make it into upper school and then graduate and land a company contract..it's both a physically and mentally demanding process for them. Best of luck to all those currently going thro the audition process!

I have an even greater admiration for all those non-vocational students who have also made finals. Not only have they not had the benefit of the same level of training as vocational students, they have also had to contend with full-time academic school and then train every available evening and weekend! I suspect that the fire in their bellies burns even brighter for them to achieve so much :)

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I don't think it's helpful to speculate over whose fire burns brightest. I have a DD at vocational school and she busts a gut to maintain her academic standards whilst contending with a very full curriculum of dancing classes during the week. I'm sure the fire burns brightly for all of them :) Re fouettes en pointe - my DD's friend has applied to a number of summer intensives in the US this year and as part of her video audition had to film herself doing 16 fouettes turns en pointe - at age 14. And having never been taught them at vocational school yet, she still managed to do it! I actually sat and cheered after she had finished! Very best of luck to all auditioning it is a challenging and emotional roller coaster. 

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Bluebell, who is suggesting that candidates are bursting into tears because they can't do something at an audition? Like taxi4ballet, I have more admiration for non-voc students who get into upper schools. Vocational students have a huge advantage.

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Guest dancer2027

I'm sure nobody would think that vocational students have had it easier, they work very hard and it must be tough going to full time training away from home so young. However, of course they will be at an advantage; white lodge will obviously ensure their students have done fouettes en pointe before if they know that will be in the upper school audition!

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Training to become a ballet dancer is very, very tough. I am surprised that anyone on here is even voicing 'more admiration' for one group of students over another. Only the very best will make it. Full stop. Anyone who makes it deserves utmost admiration. Getting into 'ballet school' is a necessary step in the process, and every family makes a decision based on their own circumstances as to when the best time for this is.

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I think everybody would have to acknowledge that vocational students are going to have an advantage over non-vocational students when it comes to upper school auditions.

Not necessarily, it depends on the quality of training dc have access to. some are lucky enough to have high quality training without leaving home. DC who attend residential dance schools also have academic pressure and have to contend with home sickness etc. I absolutely don't think you can make a general judgement; every child is different and so are their experiences, whether they train locally or away from home.

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I agree. It's hard to replicate the training at vocational school when you are at a 'normal' day school and have to do all your classes in the evening and at weekends. Few local schools are able to provide enough hours and many teachers are not able to provide training at the highest level. 

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Well, perhaps someone can provide statistics about the number of upper school students who have come from vocational schools versus the number of students who have come from local schools. My guess is that at least 80% will have come from vocational schools in the case of the RBS, Elmhurst, ENBS, Elmhurst and Central, and a smaller percentage in the case of Rambert and all the other school providing some classical training. Does anyone else have a view?

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Reading through the latter comments in this thread it surprises me that people appear to think that vocational schools have an advantage over their non- vocational peers when they have little or no experience of having a child at vocational school.

As a parent who agonised over whether or not to encourage my child's desires to go away in year 7 (she did go ultimately), I can say with first hand knowledge that there are many obstacles and the path does not always run smoothly.

Yes, their academics and dance classes are planned and balanced, and to some extent this means that their is a greater understanding of the dance element of their education by the academic teachers.

Yes, they have daily dance class, and do not have to be driven here, there and everywhere doing their homework in the car and eating their tea en route. I remember that well.

We have heard many times before on this forum of the obvious disadvantages- homesickness, friendship issues etc etc. But it's the latent issues that you don't think about when you don't have a child in this position. The fact that they can sit in their room and struggle on with their homework, because really there is no one on hand to ask, and they think they ought to be able to do it. The occasions when they would like a proper chat (which is impossible over the phone for all sorts of reasons). The fact that the day is so busy and full that they forget the really important thing that they had to tell you/ ask you, and then can't remembee what it was when they come to speak to you later in the evening. Turns out a day later that it was something you needed to post because they needed it for class urgently and now it's too late. The stress and emotional turmoil in situations like this can't be explained- it's a case that you have to be there to know how it feels. As a result, this "idyllic" and "advantageous" position is often far from it. Dance class performance can become compromised as the child is worrying about the academic homework he or she couldn't do, or fact that the satin shoes she needs for tomorrow are now not going to arrive on time and the teacher will go mad.

There are no winners here, the non- vocational child will have the family support network and nurturing daily environment that the vocational child inevitably has to manage without on a practical level. Each situation is different, and we know from this forum that both can work. Good, non- vocational dance teachers can make a star out of the right pupil- not all vocational children will become stars just because they are at vocational school!

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Children at any kind of boarding school have to be more self-sufficient than children at day schools. Your child should not be scared to ask the teacher for help if s/he does not understand something. If s/he is then there is some kind of problem.  If any teacher went mad at my child because I hadn't ordered something I would put in a complaint. Why can't the school order the item and invoice the parents? They must have stuff delivered almost daily. Some children are just not suited to boarding school and should stay at home.

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Best foot forward I love your post! Thank you. I consider myself a 'good' teacher. I've had experience teaching in Voc schools and have got plenty of non voc students into ballet schools/dance colleges at 11/14/16/18 and I strongly feel our non voc students have an advantage staying at home for all the reasons you state. Having adjudicated auditions I do agree that vocational students have an advantage though as they seem to exude confidence over our non vs who are taking a step into the unknown. But this is all digressing. I think in regards to the original post all students need to remember the panel are looking for certain attributes. Fouettés display rhythm, dynamics, coordination, musicality, technical proficiency, determination and artistic flair. Why not include them and if you show 4 amazing ones and pick yrself up and carry on that is a real sign to the panel. My advice is keep working on technique of pointework and if it's meant to be it will happen.

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Well said Bestfootforward!!!! ..... Even though I have 2 children in the vocational system I do believe very strongly that with a good local teacher a child can have the best of both worlds , good teaching and daily parental support and guidance.

 

It wouldn't be a very good argument for supporting your child to attend a vocational school if it didn't give them a very good chance of succeeding in gaining a place at Upper School !

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Gosh when I first asked the question, I did not mean it to lead to such a debate over who deserves what more, respecting my dd's privacy, I will not say which camp she is in, but what I can say, knowing both vocational and non vocational students, is that they all work so hard but to the limits of their teachers, some can afford master classes, summer schools etc etc where they may be exposed to new work and opportunities to stretch themselves and some quite frankly can't. If they have earned their place at finals then they should all be applauded wherever they have come from and I wish them all well.

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Well, I think one thing we can all agree on is that there are both advantages and disadvantages to both vocational students and non-vocational students, and that both routes have their challenges.

 

However, we have veered off course from the original question, so could we bring it back to discussing pointework at finals?

 

Thanks. :-)

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