ZooZoo Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Apologies for the very blunt title to this thread but I have a genuine interest in the answer to this and no clue what the answer is. I know dance is a vocation and passion and that dancers usually love their work and feel very fulfilled in their work, which is very important of course. However, training is expensive. If I was paying for my son to go to medical school, I would have a rough idea that at the end of it, assuming he was employed, he would earn enough money to have a decent lifestyle and buy his own home. I feel in the dark about whether the same is generally true of ballet dancers. What does the corp de ballet at the Royal earn for example? Would a dancer in a company abroad receive free accommodation to enable them to save a little, for example? I appreciate that this is a sensitive subject and I hope I will not cause anyone offence by asking. I am happy to receive personal messages if someone can help but does not want to post on the open forum. Thank you Zoo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gottokeepworking Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I believe that the starting salary for the Royal Ballet corps is around £25,000 pa. Might be more but I am sure that someone on this Forum will have the exact figures. It is London so even this doesn't go far if they want to live within an easy commute to the ROH. My DS is with a national ballet in a Eastern European country. His basic take home pay each month is just over £400. Even those who are from that country say that the amount he earns gross isn't enough to live on in a capital city. There is an extremely complicated system for earning extra per month and this usually works out to anything from £25 to £100 net. No free accommodation so his rent, travel and living experiences far outstrip his income. He wouldn't be able to work there without our financial support. He has absolutely no chance of saving, even going out socially is a treat. This does get him down and he is fairly desperate about his financial future and the fact that he still has to rely on us. If he wasn't doing something he loves he would give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It's an entirely legitimate question, ZooZoo. Principal dancers can earn a lot of money but they are few in number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifeafterballet Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I compare the earnings of a ballet dancer to that of a registered nurse ! The bandings of pay are very similar ! I'm a staff nurse / artist and my husband is a Matron / principal ! Lol ! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I thought in smaller companies the wage was very poor but in bigger companies the wage improved. Starting out it seems that you would be lucky to be earning the minimum wage in Britain. As ever in the dance world, it is considered a real privilege to get into a company, regardless of wage. If my daughter gets into a company I know that me and her dad will have to continue to support her financially, otherwise how will she afford to live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 " His basic take home pay each month is just over £400. Even those who are from that country say that the amount he earns gross isn't enough to live on in a capital city." Gottokeepworking this is truly terrifying .... It costs as much to train a ballet dancer over 3 years in vocational school as a commercial airline pilot, and I know who work harder. It's such a shame that these beautiful people aren't considered to be worth paying a living wage - one wonders how ballet companies would fare if parents didn't continue to fund their offspring,at a time when they really should be considering funding their own retirement - which seems to be vanishing into the distance .... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 A starting salary of £25K is not bad at all for a 19 year old but I suspect that the RB pays more than all the other companies in the UK. The problem comes when dancers get a bit older and no longer want to house share and want to rent or buy their own place. However, these days, many other twenty-somethings are in the same position as wages have stagnated and housing costs have become so high. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 This is why I believe our kids need a good education for later on. You can't work all those hours with such little pay for ever. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooZoo Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Oh my goodness - this is a big shock to me. I didn't think I would need to keep funding DS if he actually ever got a job in ballet. Maybe I will try and persuade DS to switch to medicine! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 A lot of companies are asking for dancers with experience and I bet the wages are still very low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Cotes du rhone, Ha ha! Exactly what I was thinking :-) Same pay, long hours, sore feet and a big smile. Slightly less imaginative seamstress in the sewing room though! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 ... I'm sure a health care assistants wage in Central London's not far behind that of a corps de ballet wage... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) In one of the Agony and Ecstasy episodes, if I remember, some of the corps de ballet members were talking about one or two of their fellow dancers earning a bit extra dancing at night clubs. Not sure if it was lap dancing or pole dancing or just dancing, but apparently it paid better than ENB! But considering the hours the corps are already working - easily 12-hour days when they're performing that evening, and dancing in a lot more performances than the principals do - it's a shame they have to get second jobs to make ends meet. But that's not all that unusual in vocational careers, especially ones that tend to be predominantly female. This might explain, though, why corps members who haven't been promoted through the ranks tend to leave the company by the time they're 30 or so, rather than staying an extra decade like the principals do. If you have a job that requires to you live in or near an expensive capital city and it doesn't pay anywhere near a living wage, there may not be much choice. Edited January 9, 2015 by Melody 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 The starting salary for a healthcare professional in central London having done a levels and a 4 year degree would be around 25k, a healthcare assistant would be a lot less I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 " His basic take home pay each month is just over £400. Even those who are from that country say that the amount he earns gross isn't enough to live on in a capital city." Gottokeepworking this is truly terrifying .... It costs as much to train a ballet dancer over 3 years in vocational school as a commercial airline pilot, and I know who work harder. It's such a shame that these beautiful people aren't considered to be worth paying a living wage - one wonders how ballet companies would fare if parents didn't continue to fund their offspring,at a time when they really should be considering funding their own retirement - which seems to be vanishing into the distance .... Ballet companies do value their dancers but most simply cant afford to pay them as well as they would like. The touring companies especially need audiences but often struggle to fill theatres. Ive watched well known companies such as Ballet Black and Northern in half filled regional theatres and know from personal experience that all seats need to be sold in many cases just to break even. Even more so if musicians have to be paid too! It frustrates me that even dance students and their parents rarely if ever go to a performance, so its not surprising that the general public outside of big cities will not go to see a dance production locally. Its a difficult one, if the dancers were paid more ( and as someone also having to help my professional ds I wish they were),the ticket prices would have to increase. Then even less people might venture into a dance performance. Resulting in even fewer seats sold. This in turn would mean a company possibly downsizing or even folding. So yes, many dancers are woefully underpaid. But its not necessarily due to being undervalued by the companies they work for who are also struggling and having to come up with ideas such as sponsor a dancer in order to survive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisiblecircus Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 In one of the Agony and Ecstasy episodes, if I remember, some of the corps de ballet members were talking about one or two of their fellow dancers earning a bit extra dancing at night clubs. Not sure if it was lap dancing or pole dancing or just dancing, but apparently it paid better than ENB! But considering the hours the corps are already working - easily 12-hour days when they're performing that evening, and dancing in a lot more performances than the principals do - it's a shame they have to get second jobs to make ends meet. But that's not all that unusual in vocational careers, especially ones that tend to be predominantly female. This might explain, though, why corps members who haven't been promoted through the ranks tend to leave the company by the time they're 30 or so, rather than staying an extra decade like the principals do. If you have a job that requires to you live in or near an expensive capital city and it doesn't pay anywhere near a living wage, there may not be much choice. One of the episodes did mention salaries. I think the starting salary was £23k for a member of the corps and it said that only principals can earn in excess of 60k. This was in 2010 so it will have changed by now although it was mentioned that they were unable to keep up with the rate of inflation and since the coalition government came in and the funding for the arts was cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Slightly different,but when I was at the Moulin Rouge the weekly pay was £240 a week. This was 1987. We didn`t have to pay any income tax for the first year we were there. We had to find our own accommodation,but I was lucky because I lived with an ex Moulin dancer and her husband and child. I paid her £50 a week [or the equivalent in Francs], and this was for rent,electric, all my meals,everything. I was the only one of us new dancers who had loads of money. I bought £300 Gucci handbags,Dior silk stockings ,lots of luxury items. I didn`t save a penny while I was there. Had no intention of saving. Not bad for just one morning of rehearsals every week, and often only one,one and a half hour show every night, 6 nights a week. !! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Ooh la la! Lucky you..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I won't give exact figures for my son (mainly coz I don't know them!) but I'm happy to say that he supports himself in a small company in Europe. His salary is very low but so's his rent. We helped out initially with some money for things for his flat and we do pay any flights (when he comes home at Christmas and summer - mainly to ensure I see him lol) but he has also managed to save enough to pay us back and buy a few bits of furniture. He said lots of the others do have financial help from parents but they live in nicer flats and spend more - he's very frugal and I see nothing wrong with him living that way for now. He was lucky that they got a decent pay rise after his first year. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooZoo Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Ah thanks Julie - that's good to hear. That is more like I would have expected, so I feel a bit more reassured now. Thank you. Zoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeliB Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I did a bit of internet searching: see below. hope this is of interest! Btw didnt score any hits on other european (not UK) companies.... But only did a brief search... http://www.theguardian.com/money/2002/aug/18/wageslaves.careers Wages The entertainers' union Equity has agreements with each ballet company for how much different grades of dancer earn. Members of the corps de ballet at the Royal Ballet earn £22,000 a year in their second year at the company. This rises by £1,000 every year they stay. Soloists earn £32,500, with the first soloist getting £39,000. Dancers who hop from company to company as guest artists negotiate their own fee for each production. As they are basically freelances, they often employ an agent to manage their work and an accountant to keep the books. USA info: http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/world/the-5-richest-ballet-dancers/ When a dancer first joins a company, they form part of a group called the Corps de Ballet, and they typically start as ensemble dancers in the background. If a dancer is part of the union known as American Guild of Musical Artists (also known as AGMA), they have a degree of protection, in that they’re entitled to at least a minimum wage that is livable and at a set scale. The industry – as with so many of the capricious, competitive arts industries – is notoriously underpaid, with the majority of dancers working long hours for very little financial reward. Payscale cites the average ballet dancer’s salary as a tiny $15,080 – $26,419. Midlevel dancers, often soloists, could earn as much as $50,000-$58,000 a year. In the aspirational case, celebrated principal dancers can earn a couple of thousand dollars per performance. Salaries 2010: The median salary for a professional dancer as of 2010 is between $25,000 and $55,000 a year, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. On an hourly level, dancers make between $8 and $15 an hour, according to the BLS. The full pay range for dancers varies from $17,000 a year to over $67,000. Read more : http://www.ehow.com/info_7852060_average-salary-professional-ballerina.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Despite the low wages at some companies, I saw something very recently about how happy people in different jobs were. Ballet dancers scored highly, which surprised me as there are many frustrations and unfairnesses (injuries and vagaries of casting come to mind) in this profession - as well as the very long hours, the physical demands and the challenges of touring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gottokeepworking Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Thank you CeliB for researching. The Guardian article was published is 2002 so 12 years on the starting salary in the Royal Ballet must now be over the £25,000 I mentioned in my previous posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Wages The entertainers' union Equity has agreements with each ballet company for how much different grades of dancer earn. Members of the corps de ballet at the Royal Ballet earn £22,000 a year in their second year at the company. This rises by £1,000 every year they stay. Which must mean that if there's increased financial pressure (and I'm assuming this would apply similarly to all companies) there might be a temptation to push dancers out after a few years in the corps and attract some school leavers instead? I remember Iohna Loots in a documentary on the RB/School some years ago bemoaning the fact (I think) that she was never going to be able to buy her own flat on a dancer's salary - that, of course, is far more common for most young people now. Not that long after, she got a promotion to Soloist (this was the same documentary in which Steven McRae said that if he didn't get promoted to principal by a certain age he'd be leaving - and again I think it was not long afterwards that *he* got promoted ) I've noticed recently that there seems to be an increase in the number of dancers modelling fashion as a sideline. I suppose that's something they can fit around work a bit, and presumably it could pay quite well for not too much time expended. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I think that dancers do all sorts of things as a sideline. I have seen ENB and RB dancers in clothing catalogues (eg Sweaty Betty), music videos and 'mainstream' advertisements on television. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 when a friends DD graduated she was really pleasantly surprised at her DDs wage as she had always thought a ballet dancer did not earn much but she said it was 'on a par with what a university graduate might expect for their first job'. This was for a UK ballet company. Of course this does not mean that a dancer's salary will increase along the same lines. Dancers has stated above might also get some modelling or advertising work and of course they may teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 These days a ballet dancer's wages compare very favourably with the wages of most graduates, who are of course a couple of years older (unless their degree is undertaken at a vocational school). I'm talking here about dancers who have a contract of employment with a company, rather than freelancers who are brought in for specific productions. I sincerely hope that companies don't start to adopt some of the bad practices which have become so widespread elsewhere eg zero hours contracts and no holiday or sick pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrystalBallet Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 This is such an important topic and I'm glad someone had the courage to ask! I trained at the Rbs and spent time at ENB, Royal Ballet and a smallish company in Germany. I earned the following: ENB 1995-1997 £16,000 pa Germany 1997-2004 £13,000 pa RB 2004-2009 started on £31,000 as recognition of years of professional experience. Left on £42,000 after being promoted to First Artist 5th Year. The salary levels of the Royal are the best in Britain and some of the best in the world. They are: Artist - £26,500 First Artist - £30,500 Soloist - £44,000 First Soloist - £52,000 Principal - £65,000 for the first year then negotaiable year on year depending on roles and shows etc. Those are salaries not including overtime and each year theres a small incremental rise to recognise years of service. Whats interesting is that in the US the basic monthly salary is often good but they run on seasonal contracts. This means that you'll get a contract for nine months then you'll be laid off for 3 months before being rehired. This means that as its not treated as a "full-time" contract getting finance for a house etc is incredibly difficult and companies get away without proper pension provisions. Basically, if you're very talented and hard working and reasonably lucky you'll do quite well. But you retire around 40 years old and you need another career for 25 years! Hope that helps. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Thanks for posting this information, CrystalBallet. How much is overtime likely to add to a dancer's basic salary at the RB? I'm surprised by the figure which you have given for a principal's salary. I had assumed that it would be quite a lot more than £65K and closer to £100K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Thank you CrystalBallet that is very useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 This was published in dance magazine today and is an interesting read, even tho referring mainly to the USA . I'm not sure the link will work but copy and paste into your browser if not. http://bit.ly15xR6Ax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I thought that this website may also be of interest, it outlines pay and conditions for companies in Europe and the US. x http://www.balletposition.com/index.html 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 That's a great site, Ellie. Thank goodness that The Arts Council insists on proper working conditions for dancers working for the UK based companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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