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Why do we make it so hard for boys to begin taking ballet?


Stitch

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To "Dancer Sugar Plum" and "aileen":

To this day, people think I'm gay.  I'm not.  (Of course there's nothing wrong with being gay, it's just that I'm not) 

Here's a response that always seemed to help me:

"Ballet is a place where there are lots of pretty girls wearing spandex."

 

I liked your reply Stitch :)

 

In this situation, I think ballet's reputation for being pink and the association with pointe shoes, which are usually pink, is not helpful. It's bad enough that people think ballet is easy because of it's 'pinkness' but it makes people think it's a feminine activity. When I have mentioned that men do different steps from females in class, that they have slower music to jump higher, and they dance differently from females, etc, non-ballet people are always very surprised.

 

I also have never heard of, or seen a school being restrictive of what new students wear for class, be they children or adults, unless it's a safety issue.

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Would they be allowed?  Would they be pro or amateur?

 

I have a feeling that the shortage of boys taking ballet - in the UK anyway - isn't really down to what they have to wear for class. For boys, I think it starts it their families. Whenever I've mentioned I do ballet to a man who has a son(s) or grandson(s), the odds are they will say something along the lines of, 'When my son/grandson was 5 he wanted to do ballet, which made us a bit worried about him. Luckily he grew out of that,' or 'Luckily we were able to put a stop to that'. I never know what to say because I know it will start an argument but it always makes me sad that there are still these views around that boys shouldn't do ballet because it's girly and only for girls. There must be so many would-be male dancers of all ages missing/out. :(

 

This is what I originally thought the thread would be about.  And as I've no doubt pointed out before, the Royal Ballet's only two British male principals only took up dancing because their twin sisters did it and they didn't want to miss out.  It's mind-boggling how many potential dancers won't have had even that advantage.  And I'm sure I've previously mentioned the former colleague of mine who blithely sent her 3-year-old daughter and only child off to ballet classes, but when I challenged her whether she would have done the same thing if she'd had a son her response was along the lines of "Good God no, we'd have sent him to rugby or something".

 

When my DS was about 5, he used to do both Karate and Ballet. One day he had to miss his Karate for a ballet commitment, so I duly informed the sensei. A boy of a similar age overheard and said 'He does ballet?' in a very disparaging manner, to which the Sensei replied, 'Yes, which is why his kicks, posture, and jumps are much better than yours.' God bless that man!

 

At the time of posting, that post had 18 "Likes", which I suspect may be something of a record for this board :)

 

In this situation, I think ballet's reputation for being pink and the association with pointe shoes, which are usually pink, is not helpful. It's bad enough that people think ballet is easy because of it's 'pinkness' but it makes people think it's a feminine activity. When I have mentioned that men do different steps from females in class, that they have slower music to jump higher, and they dance differently from females, etc, non-ballet people are always very surprised.

 

This is very true, too.  Another reason for avoiding gender-linked colouring.

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I think that the Chance to Dance programme run by the ROH is helpful in this respect. All children in year 3 in the participating schools take part in the workshops and a certain number (who are not already attending ballet lessons) are chosen for local training, which I think is free or at least means tested.

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Regarding 'pink-ness' I have the sweetest, tiniest new boy pupil. Yesterday he arrived for class in his shorts, t shirt (as usual) and then very proudly showed me his new ballet shoes.....which were pink, and because he's so tiny, several sizes too big :) :) :) I told him he looked fantastic and none of the other children (boys and girls) batted an eyelid...

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There was a programme last week about whether you can have a 'male mind' or 'female mind' (or something along those lines). I didn't see it but a ballet friend did. She said that when they talked about typical female activities they showed a ballet class with very young girls. When they talked about typical male activities they showed a football match. Talk about gender stereotyping! And we wonder why not more boys are taking up ballet! Surely these stereotypes broadcasted on TV undermine any programmes run by ballet schools to encourage boys to dance? Oh dear. :(

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I saw that programme (Horizon) it was surely a vocational school, I forgot to check the end to see what school (pastel green leotards). The rest of the programme did examine gender stereotypes a bit more, but yes, surely they could've showed the boys class too, or even spoken to boys about their experiences in choosing ballet.

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My younger son told me today that while he was waiting for the school bus home, a lad realised he was DS's brother and asked him where DS had gone to school now. When younger son said he has gone to dance school the lad sniggered and said 'isn't that for girls?'. I honestly despair at the ignorance. No wonder DS joined army cadets and told everyone at school he was going to be a marine - imagine their surprise when he went off to Tring!

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I almost didn't post this thread because I was afraid that it might be a little "touchy".  Thanks to all the dancers, teachers and parents who truly understand the issue and have stepped forward to speak to it.  I have some other thoughts that I hope to post soon.

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I think the "pinkness" thing is detrimental to girls as well as boys actually. Ok, it probably does attract a lot of little girls (and their mums)in the beginning but as we all know, ballet taken in any way seriously is as physically and mentally demanding as any of the sports etc which are so revered in schools and society in general. I've posted on here previously about my frustration re my DD's academic school's lack of interest in her dancing, in sharp contrast with the plaudits given to those who excel at sport, music and so on. I know i am not alone in having that experience. Now DD likes a pretty tutu as much as anyone (as my bank balance demonstrates)but many people just don't seem to be able to see beyond that. I think her credibility amongst her peers,and certainly her PE teachers went up considerably when they did some core conditioning work in PE last term. DD hadn't broken into a sweat and the rest of the class were in a heap on the floor. Apparently she is now revered for being able to do more sit ups or something than the boys who "work out". People find it hard to believe that she has attained this level of fitness from "just dancing" which I suppose reflects the mental image of little girls doing fairy runs in pink leotards that most of the general public seem to have if they hear the words "ballet class". I don't know what the answer is, and i doubt such ingrained ideas will change sadly, but I think it would do a lot of female dancers a favour if ballet lost some of its "pink and fluffy" image, not just the guys.

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The above post makes me think of when DS did the 'Bleep test' at school with all his year when he was about 14.

 

He was one of the last 3 left and stopped because he was 'fed up' of doing it!

 

The PE department were quite surprised about how well he had done, not being keen on Rugby/Football etc.

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I think the "pinkness" thing is detrimental to girls as well as boys actually. Ok, it probably does attract a lot of little girls (and their mums)in the beginning but as we all know, ballet taken in any way seriously is as physically and mentally demanding as any of the sports etc which are so revered in schools and society in general. I've posted on here previously about my frustration re my DD's academic school's lack of interest in her dancing, in sharp contrast with the plaudits given to those who excel at sport, music and so on. I know i am not alone in having that experience. Now DD likes a pretty tutu as much as anyone (as my bank balance demonstrates)but many people just don't seem to be able to see beyond that. I think her credibility amongst her peers,and certainly her PE teachers went up considerably when they did some core conditioning work in PE last term. DD hadn't broken into a sweat and the rest of the class were in a heap on the floor. Apparently she is now revered for being able to do more sit ups or something than the boys who "work out". People find it hard to believe that she has attained this level of fitness from "just dancing" which I suppose reflects the mental image of little girls doing fairy runs in pink leotards that most of the general public seem to have if they hear the words "ballet class". I don't know what the answer is, and i doubt such ingrained ideas will change sadly, but I think it would do a lot of female dancers a favour if ballet lost some of its "pink and fluffy" image, not just the guys.

 

I agree with this. For most (non-ballet) people, the only time they come into contact with ballet is if they happen to catch a performance on TV or go along to a performance. The professionals make it look so effortless, so people think it is easy. Everyone on stage makes it look so effortless, the women might be wearing floaty costumes, the tutus are so beautiful, somethimes they are sparkly, so it has a reputation for being 'pink and fluffy'. I get frustrated when I hear people making comments to show they don't understand how much work is involved in doing ballet. If people were to understand how much work it takes to do ballet properly, would that encourage more people to go to ballet performances and do class themselves, including men and boys, or would that remove the illusion created by professional dancers on stage?

 

I can imagine it must be so hard as a young person still at 'normal' school, trying to make your peers and teachers understand your love of ballet and having to put up with comments about ballet being easy, girly, etc, whether you're a boy or girl.

 

Reading the last few posts reminded of a programme broadcasted some years ago about students at the Royal Ballet School. There were several boys who talked about having to hide their passion for ballet from their school before getting into White Lodge. One boy said he made up a story about where he was going, and his old school still did not know he was at ballet school, presumably until they saw the programme on TV and saw his 'confession'. He can't be the only one placed in this situation and I think it's really sad, having to hide what he loved doing most in the world. But on the plus side, it was great to see him happy at White Lodge, that he no longer needed to hide his love for ballet now that he was at vocational school.

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This popped up on my facebook

https://www.facebook.com/DanceUK1/photos/a.83971136371.92633.74671441371/10152309786416372/?type=1&theater-

may be of interest to some young male dancers out there

 

2DM, if nobody's done so already, maybe it would be worth putting this in a separate thread?  Could be someone will see it and it could change their whole life!

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Pupsmum, I can relate so much to your comments.  4 years ago when DD went to high school her first few PE classes weren't going so well - she's not into team sports at all and cross country (which was the module they were doing at that time) was a complete non starter as she wouldn't risk her knees or ankles by running so she walked the course.  So needless to say I had to have a 'conversation' with the Head of PE at parents night.  Thankfully he understood the amount of work she put into her ballet and arranged the next few classes around core work.  Now DD's school is a Sports Comprehensive and specialises in Rugby so to say there are a lot of boys there who 'work out' is an understatement.

 

Imagine their surprise when DD was able to out perform them not just in sit-up's but any of the exercises which they did which involved engaging her core stomach muscles AND her leg muscles.  And when it came to stamina DD had to be told to stop running (on the track) when everyone else had collapsed around her - she was quite literally the last one standing.  (She may not have speed but resembles Forrest Gump in that she can just keep going and never gets out of breath.)

 

What was great was that the head of PE used DD's skills to really emphasise that traditional male activities really didn't mean that you were the fittest, toughest or strongest around.  Something perceived as 'soft and fluffy', when done with dedication and determination can achieve higher results.  And actually arranged for a ballet teacher to come in for a couple of classes to work with some of the boys.

 

DD was really surprised when a number of the boys starting asking her which exercises she used for stretching certain muscles etc.  And even now, 4 years later, many of those boys still ask her questions about her ballet and are genuinely interested in how her training is going.

 

Now maybe they haven't taken up ballet but at least those half a dozen boys have a real appreciation of the work that it entails.  Possibly if we had more PE teachers who understood dance then we could gradually see a change in attitudes.  I hope so.

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I found out that when I was working at my dds school that one of their PE teachers loved Latin dance and also the fact that I had gone back to ballet. The school was pretty good about letting them have time off for dance and theatre exams/shows. Both of them were robust enough to refuse to do anything they thought might damage them from a ballet point of view. :)

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There does seem to be a greater awareness by sport coaches as to the fitness benefits of Ballet.

 

DS and I were invited in the summer to work with a local mixed diving team. They now do regular lessons. The coaches were impressed with how hard we made them work! And we was actually the girls in the group who were initially hard to convince about the merits of Ballet training.

Edited by hfbrew
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I have to say the strength and stamina you get from dancing doesn't end even when you are old and just doing a couple of classes a week. I choreographed a "bollywood" number for our Christmas show a couple of years ago. I was 47 they were between 12 and 14 and I could still keep going when they were on the floor and I was counting and talking whilst I was dancing! I have to say I gained a new respect from the kids!

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Articles like this may not help!

 

http://www.thehardtackle.com/2014/juventus-roma-game-is-not-a-title-decider-allegri/

 

The final paragraph says:

 

“Roma always play to win and we’ll approach it the same way as on Tuesday [against City], with the ambition to cause problems. Juventus have a strong physical presence on the field, we have to be up for that. We have to win balls in defence too and you can’t do that with ballet shoes, you need to fight,” the Roma boss concluded.

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I have a feeling that the shortage of boys taking ballet - in the UK anyway - isn't really down to what they have to wear for class. For boys, I think it starts it their families. Whenever I've mentioned I do ballet to a man who has a son(s) or grandson(s), the odds are they will say something along the lines of, 'When my son/grandson was 5 he wanted to do ballet, which made us a bit worried about him. Luckily he grew out of that,' or 'Luckily we were able to put a stop to that'..

I agree that it's less about what young boys have to wear and more about the parents attitude, but I think the parents reluctance is the result of what the male professionals have to wear i.e. Men in tights!!

 

Unfortunately I think popular culture and comedy promotes the myth that male ballet is about men prancing around in tights. I have taken friends to watch ballet, both male and female, and they have confessed that they feel uncomfortable watching male dancers in skin tight tights and feel much better when they play characters with loose-fitting breaches.

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We seem to have been incredibly lucky as DS has never been given a hard time about ballet- he was lucky enough when smaller (10-12) to have an all boy class - occasionally at junior school he had some negative comments but he didn't seem in the slightest bit bothered ... Once he got to 12 he was in a one boy one girl class anyway. All his mates at senior school knew he did ballet and clearly weren't bothered (his best friend, who despite the distance is still his best friend, even came to see ENB with us as a treat last christmas and really enjoyed it). When he got the scholarship to vocational school in yr 9, several year 11 children that he didn't even know come up to congratulate him.

 

On the other hand DD who started ballet at 3 and still dances for fun had a sudden aversion to all things pink aged 7 and insisted on wearing blue leo and black tights/shoes etc. She was the only child in her class at school wearing boxer shorts in year 2 and wore all her brothers clothes up until age 11 or so. At senior school in yrs 7 and 8 she was known for being so good in rugby that when she ran into a tackle other players would just drop the ball and run away. But she ended up slightly bullied for being too tough so gave it up sadly.... 

 

So whilst DH and I are rather proud of the lack of gender stereotyping in our household I would say on balance it is DD who has had the worst of it.....!!

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I do know what they mean,Ribbons. Yes,we can all admire their technical prowess and artistry. But is it not time the male ballet dancer worse something that concealed "The Bulge"? The buttocks being on display is enough.!!

Good point.

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"... We have to win balls in defence too and you can’t do that with ballet shoes, you need to fight,” the Roma boss concluded.

Yes, ouch, that hurts - especially when said to a large sports audience.  A one-sentence setback.

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As I recall from reading......

 

There was a time when the male dancer on the Russian stage had to wear a jacket that came below the upper thighs to hide that which it was thought should be hidden.  And wasn't it  Nijinsky who was banned from the imperial Russian stage by a complaint from a member of the royal family because his jacket was cut too high?

 

In the ensuing years, it was thought that such an attitude was prudery - and here we are with a call to return to those days.

 

This is not a comment either for or against such an opinion - but a whimsical thought of the constancy of the inconstant.

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The "bulge" never crosses my mind when I'm watching ballet (it's all smoothed out anyway with a dance belt) - I'm too busy admiring/enjoying the dancing, acting, costumes, sets. When it comes to physical aspects, I might be thinking "Wow, amazing legs" but that's it.

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I agree JulieW, it's something that has never crossed my mind either, I'm too busy admiring the technical prowess of the dancers.

 

As I recall from reading......

 

There was a time when the male dancer on the Russian stage had to wear a jacket that came below the upper thighs to hide that which it was thought should be hidden.  And wasn't it  Nijinsky who was banned from the imperial Russian stage by a complaint from a member of the royal family because his jacket was cut too high?

 

In the ensuing years, it was thought that such an attitude was prudery - and here we are with a call to return to those days.

 

This is not a comment either for or against such an opinion - but a whimsical thought of the constancy of the inconstant.

 

This is interesting Anjuli. I'm sure I've seen a documentary about Nureyev where it said that it was his 'fault' that we now have male dancers in tights on stage. Aparently, if I remember correctly from the documentary, before Nureyev came along, males dancers did not usually wear tights on stage. It was considered odd and strange when Nureyev first appeared in tights. The trend obviously caught on, but if he didn't start this trend, I wonder what male dancers would be wearing today?

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I do believe that tights (made from silk) were worn by the upper classes and at court.  Picture in your mind the various kings of France, or the Three Musketeers.  A man was judged by the elegance of his legs and in fact "making a leg" was another way of saying "bowing" or "a reverence" before royalty.  

 

It is true that the upper portion of the leg was covered by a jacket and/or doublet - but still the legs were clothed in tights.  It was a sign of wealth - who but the wealthy could afford such a wardrobe made of silk?  In fact, the entire "grand reverence" was designed to show off the various aspects of clothing indicating wealth as the hand held a hat adorned with ostrich feathers - the arm moving down the front of the body to emphasize the lace at the throat and cuffs, jeweled butttons and fasteners, silk tights on the legs, jeweled shoe buckles.  The ballet has preserved this reverance.  Many of the movements of the ballet are a living museum of the movements from centuries ago.  The petit batterie such as "royale" is another.

 

Through the years different parts of the male leg were left uncovered beginning with the ankles, then the calves, and on up the leg with the very top covered by the ballooning doublet.  The same with the female leg.

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