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Ballet training in the UK


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Interesting article - thanks for posting. Although I'm not sure the decision to leave Elmhurst was entirely her own. 

 

Anyway , just look at the difference in hours of training between Claudia and Tierney at age 15. Claudia was moved up to second year after 6 weeks and I am told that this is very common with students from abroad - again, because they are so much more advanced.

 

Spanner -  I don't think it is about over-pushing children or hothousing them but it is about doing more than they do now. Even at White Lodge, the year 10's and 11's only do a 2 hour classical ballet lesson a day. 

 

I wonder what other established ballet vocational schools do. Anyone?

 

I have heard somewhere that one POB school student was allowed to go do the classes outside the POB school in the evening because she was "a bit behind".  Not sure if  this was exception or the norm, though, as the student in question was Noella Pontois' daughter, who then joined the POB and made it just below the etoile rank...

 

I will ask my cuban (who went to the same school as Carlos Acosta) friend of mine next time I see her.  I know from what she told me that they assess students out every term (!) - but if you graduate there will be a guaranteed place at the Cuban National Ballet.

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There are no vocational boarding schools in Australia and only three public funded dance schools (Australian Ballet School, Victorian College of the Arts Secondary School and Queensland Dance School of Excellence). The students have dance for around 4 hours per day and academic lessons for the remainder of the day. Consequently there is a large number of private dance schools that offer full time dance programmes and the students continue their schooling by distance education (even if they live in a city). The majority of very serious ballet students from around the age of 14 yrs who wish for a career in dance study by distance education in Australia so that they can fit in their dance training of 16+ hours per week. Sometimes considerably more hours if they are entering competitions. 

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In DS's school in USA he is grade 11 (year 12). He has academic classes all morning from 7am through to 12 I think, then class 1-4.30/5 p.m. Every evening he has partnering (around 1.5 hours I think) and he also does class on a Saturday 9-1. I think he does one contemporary and one character class each week (for about an hour?) but the rest is pure classical. When there's a performance coming up he may also do rehearsals saturday afternoon and a few additional evenings in the week. He often then goes in to the studio on a sunday to practise with his PDD partner some more just on their own.... Plus at least 3 times a week in the gym to do extra strength workouts. He certainly clocks up a lot of hours but don't know if it is significantly more than UK schools...

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My apologies, I certainly didn't intend to try to invade her privacy. It was just my initial reaction to Ribbons' post.

 

I thought she was great to have said that every year she auditioned unsuccessfully for WL - what a boost that could give to any student feeling disheartened at having auditioned unsuccessfully at any of the lower schools, when she nevertheless went on to be very successful re offers at 16 and has been very successful so far at the Royal Ballet! She had no need to indicate that earlier on she wasn't successful in RBS auditions but her choosing to do so may give some hope to other candidates who have also received 'not now' letters.

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Another interesting thread. 

 

In the above article, Claudia was getting 4 hours of private coaching a day (I think?).   That would have given her a huge advantage over others who are just taking part in general classes.  

 

Sorry if this question has already been asked, but how do vocational schools react to a pupil taking a private lesson elsewhere?  Or having lessons in the summer holidays?  Would they frown upon it?  Certainly, if I had a child who was struggling to master something such as pirouettes, and an opportunity to pay for individual tuition with a teacher who was producing children who were effortlessly turning triples, then I would try to get at least one session for them with that teacher!

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I know of lots of vocational students who have private lessons outside of school, the vocational a schools don't know about it. My daughter also had private lessons as I felt that there were gaps in her training and having one to one with a good teacher soon sorted the problems out. The student I know of have come from White Lodge, Elmhurst, Tring and Hammond. All these girls got into top upper schools and not the ones they came from.

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What exactly is the purpose of this thread? To moan about British schools? To discuss why overseas students are so good and British students aren't?

 

Any school will have its problems and if you have a problem with a school, then there are always ways to make your views known at the school - exactly as with state schools, or indeed any sort of high level training in any sport or art.

 

I am sure there are many dancers who started the Bolshoi at 11 who do not have contracts at 18. Wonder how their complaints got heard...

 

But if UK schools are not good enough for you, then good luck with the private coaching, overseas schools or whatever. Fortunately in the UK, we have plenty of choice and as has often been quoted on ballet.co, we are the consumers so can vote with our feet.

 

Just make sure the grass IS greener.

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Well I happen to think Cental is a school that offers brilliant all round training I have no complaints at all, so no more private lessons. The statement grass is not always greener can even apply to schools within our own country. If there is a need for one to one training and you can afford it and your child wants to do them, then that is a personal choice.

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What exactly is the purpose of this thread? To moan about British schools? To discuss why overseas students are so good and British students aren't?

 

 

No it's none of those Stirrups. It was started as a genuine look at whether ballet training in the UK is up to the same standard as that received oversees and look at the reasons why that might be.  If you are not interested in adding something constructive to the conversation then maybe better not to post.

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well from what I have read it is not so much to moan as to angst that UK schools are not able to compete with schools in countries where they find it acceptable to push their children harder from an earlier age.

 

As far as I see it the issue is not 'are our schools fit for purpose?'but 'what do we believe the purpose is?'  Is it to take 100 aspiring dancers and out of them make 5 international principals, 25 corps members and 70 children who have been assessed out or given up through injury or physical/mental exhaustion or depression OR is it to turn out 0.5 principal dancers, 50 corps members and 49.5 children who have a good, well-rounded education and are able and happy to find a career in the dance world somewhere?

 

Of course I have invented the numbers to make the point, but I think this is the essence of the question....and unfortunately we don't know the answer. We are afraid that pushing hard is detrimental to our childrens well being, but at the same time we are afraid that not pushing hard means they can't compete in an arena where others push harder. And we don't know when pushing hard becomes pushing too hard. And this is partly because a) there isn't enough good evidence out there comparing training with outcomes and B) it depends a lot on the individual.....

 

I wish I knew the answer :(

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I'm amazed that children at vocational schools, many of whose parents are paying thousands of pounds for the training, feel the need for private lessons as well, which are an additional expense. It's very interesting to hear about how many private lessons some overseas students have; I'm sure that it must accelerate their progress.

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I think that would be another topic aileen. Sometimes when a child is injured and has had time out, or perhaps the child is not quite understanding how to engage with certain muscles, then on to one lessons can be really useful. One could not expect a teacher who may have 20 other students in the class to offer this one to one coaching.

 

I don't believe our children need pushing harder, perhaps we need our own system of training. I believe the Russians have their own method of training and so do the French. Our country seems to use lots of everyone else's method of training, which may not be a bad thing, I don't know the answers either.

 

Within Early Years which is my profession, we are always researching successful ways of teaching little ones, we research other countries and theorists to see how we can improve and move forward. I don't know but do our ballet schools look closely at the most successful schools to see if they like or agree with what they see, or do they presume that we are just as good or even better???

 

I happen to believe that the UK does and has produced some excellent dancers especially the men, however it can't be ignored that the foreign student especially the Japanese are stronger and sometimes much more comfortable to perform and show off what they have got when they come to our upper schools.

 

Stirrup66 just encase you thought I was having a moan about the British schools, well I wasn't, I was reflecting and joining in with the discussion.

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Attending Upper School Auditions this year and have noted that there is no shortage of non British Nationals auditioning alongside our home grown dancing children. I think our schools' reputation abroad speaks for itself - the training offered is first class - it might not suit everyone and some might need to supplement to achieve their potential in all areas. I am just happy that we have training available here and that it is recognised as excellent on the International stage. Many factors will come into play as to whether a dancer will become a member of the corps, a soloist or a principle. Training,physicality,contacts,luck and pure talent will all play their part and of course being in the right place at the right time. If my DD achieves a place at her dream school we will remain firmly on these shores if not we will look elsewhere. To train in Britain is the dream of many dc abroad - lets celebrate that if you have the talent the training is here for the taking and if it was so much better elsewhere surely not so many international wannabes would be in my DDs audition class ;)

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I'm amazed that children at vocational schools, many of whose parents are paying thousands of pounds for the training, feel the need for private lessons as well, which are an additional expense. It's very interesting to hear about how many private lessons some overseas students have; I'm sure that it must accelerate their progress.

But if you had a child at a private school who was struggling with one subject, despite the school's assistance, wouldn't you pay for a private tutor to help? For a while at least? I know I would, if I could afford it. Same with a vocational dance school.

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Given the amount of international students applying to and attending our 6th form schools UK schools are clearly highly rated by other nations with students from abroad very eager to win scholarships to UK schools via international competitions as well as being self funded or are sponsored by their own nations. At my DD's lower school over the last 4 years there has definitely been an increase in the number of international students gaining places in the lower school too. They of course aren't eligible for UK MDS scholarships, so the families pay or they get support from their own country. A very demonstrable commendation of first class training.

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I think this is the essence of the question....and unfortunately we don't know the answer. We are afraid that pushing hard is detrimental to our childrens well being, but at the same time we are afraid that not pushing hard means they can't compete in an arena where others push harder. And we don't know when pushing hard becomes pushing too hard. And this is partly because a) there isn't enough good evidence out there comparing training with outcomes and B) it depends a lot on the individual.....

 

I wish I knew the answer :(

I totally agree with this. I wish there WAS more evidence upon which to form an answer. All we can do is learn from what has gone before in dance and what is happening in similar situations where young people are trained intensively for elite level art or sport. 'More hours dancing' doesn't necessarily result in 'better dancer'. The old adage 'quality not quantity' sort of applies here. And I think this is where the UK schools can learn from those who are expert in child training/education and take the best from all aspects ie ensuring emotional well being, fostering artistry, training technique and training fitness (strength, flexibility, control etc).

 

My PhD research looked into training for purpose and it's a topic that interests me a great deal. The 'typical' ballet class attempts to train artistry, technique, strength, flexibility, control, power, complex motor skills such as turning/batterie all in one fell swoop. Athletes will focus on one or two of these elements per training session and wouldn't dream of combining them every session. However, taking such a radical approach in dance would, at the present time, be seen as a HUGE risk. It's something I'd love to try though!!!

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I think the purpose of this thread is to discuss vocational ballet training in the UK, isn't it?

 

Just done a search to find the article that I remember reading in The Guardian.  I draw your attention to the second to last paragraph. 

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2012/mar/25/will-they-make-royal-ballet

That article struck a chord with me too, especially this paragraph:

 

"They're so lovely," Young sighs after the class. "And their legs go far higher than ours ever did. All this, though…" And here she strikes an attitude, the position pliant and alive, her arms framing her face with subtle épaulement. "All this is gone." But if her pupils go for eye-catching hyperextensions and "six-o'clock arabesques" rather than nuance and refinement, it's perhaps because they know that in an audition they have to grab a director's attention fast. In a mercilessly unforgiving milieu, their instincts are fine-tuned for survival.

 

When one of the RBS teachers is saying that what used to be a vital part of training for British dancers is being jettisoned in favour of the current trend toward more and more acrobatic dancing, then I think Luke Jennings is right to wonder what this means for the identity of British ballet and the prospects for British trainees.

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Well, this is an interesting discussion, especially for someone applying for UK schools from abroad.

 

I think everyone tends to have a 'grass is greener on the other side' mentality to a degree, including my dd. She has trained in Australia since she was tiny. She did start pointe early by your standards (10 1/2) but only with an in depth physio assessment and even then, they barely did anything other than strengthening exercises for the first 3-4 years. Now at 16 1/2, she looks at the kids on youtube at Prix, YAGP etc and is astounded at how accomplished they are. 

 

I'm sure everyone noticed how many 15yo were in the finals at Prix last week! BTW, there were no Aussies in the finals.

 

I think there are a few common issues between UK and Australian students, firstly, we have strict educational requirements until the age of 17, so dancers are limited to the amount of hours they can spend in the studio. I've never heard of private dance schools offering early morning classes.

 

Most kids (not in vocational school) are doing 2 x 90min syllabus classes a week, plus 1 or 2 open classes, stretch/pilates, contemporary and possibly jazz. Plus, most serious students are in a (competition) performance group and probably have a private lesson per week to work on solos for competitions. RAD is still the major syllabus used here. My dd grew up with Cecchetti, did a little RAD and is now doing Australian Conservatoire which is Vaganova based. We are definitely in the minority, not doing RAD. I'd say most of the kids we know around 15-16yo are up to Adv1-Adv2.

 

Yes, kids here are encouraged to compete, although, the more 'classical' schools limit competitions to a few selected ones rather than the hundreds out there! Personally, I hate the competitions......

 

Back to the point. It is interesting that UK schools are in such big demand. They must be doing something right for the graduates to be offered jobs. I've been told numerous times lately (by teachers at full time vocational ballet schools) that the only schools in Australia which will take students to company audition level, are the Australian Ballet School and Queensland Ballet Pre Pro course. The other schools are all offering to train students to a level where they can apply for company attached schools overseas.

 

So - I'm not sure that our kids are any better than those in the UK. My dd certainly looks at loads (too many) youtube videos of kids from all over the world and can't believe how advanced they are. The bottom line is that UK schools are training dancers to get jobs and that has to be a good thing.

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The above posts reminded me of something I have read -  and made me thinkg that apart from the excellent teaching, the reality in the professional ballet world may also be the reason why RBS is such a popular choice for overseas students.

 

When auditioning for a post in ballet companies, first they look at ballet schools the auditionees are trained.

 

I think this was mentioned at one of the interviews at this year's Prix de Lausanne.  It went on to say that the purpose of Prix is to find talents who have been learning ballet outside those "recognised" schools and send them there so that they can add the school's name to their CV - and it makes all the difference.

 

So I think, for some overseas' ballet students, it is a bit more than the case of grass is greener elsewhere... those kids are already looking beyond the training stage. (of course that is because they are exceptional dancers in their own land.)

 

I think RBS is particularly popular because graduating there leads to actual employment possibility for many Japanese or South American dancers, most of who will not be even considered (purely because of their physique) by some other companies. 

 

Young dancers-to-be accept certain things as a fact of life rather than fight them - they don't have time to wait for improvements in the system!  Those students know that if they go to Bolishoi school or Vaganova they have very little chance of joining the company.  Some still go study at Bolishoi, but those students would be regarding Bolishoi school as a spring board to the next step. 

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Once again, I think the message coming across loud and clear is for parents to listen to their children, and make decisions for the future together.  Just because your child has got in to a top school does not necessarily mean it is the right school for them while they are under the age of 16.  Providing you are not blind to any serious problems, such as a physique that is not suitable for adult ballet dancers, then surely it is best to encourage your children to strive to achieve to be as good as they possibly can.  And if that turns out to be not quite good enough, then at least they will have given it their all, and can walk away with their heads held high and with no regrets (hopefully). 

 

No child decides to train as a ballet dancer without being dedicated.  Ask any one of them, and they will probably say being in class is where they feel most at home.  And they will probably feel this from a very early age.  This can be difficult for adults to understand sometimes, and perhaps there is a natural tendency for parents to want to protect their offspring from pushing themselves too hard.  But the fact that young children are prepared to line up at the barre every day and contort themselves into positions that are alien to most people says it all. 

 

Also, does this concern not to push your child too far too fast apply only to ballet?  Would any parent question the desire for a boy of 10 wanting to practise his football skills for hours every day?  Parents often consider this normal behaviour in boys who like to play, and probably have to drag them away from it to get on with other mundane things like schoolwork!

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I think there are a few common issues between UK and Australian students, firstly, we have strict educational requirements until the age of 17, so dancers are limited to the amount of hours they can spend in the studio. I've never heard of private dance schools offering early morning classes.

 

 

Pastel, I don't think this statement is true.  Most countries, at least G8 (or 12 or 20, whatever it is now) countries they have the same level of strict educational requirements  Obviously there will always be some exceptions, but certainly that is not the norm.

 

I don't feel this type of sentiments ("if they are better than us, they must be cheating") will lead to constructive discussions in terms of solving a problem (if there are any).

 

According to another posters from Australia, there are, in Australia, clearly some private schools who train children differently from the way you have discribed - and I do not think those schools or parents of children are disregarding the "strict educational requirements". Do you?

Edited by mimi66
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I think the difference is driven by the great distances and relatively low population density in Australia, which means that not all promising pupils can realistically access a big school within reasonable traveling distance. There are a cluster of small, private institutions serving communities on the East Coast, which have been extraordinarily successful in getting pupils to the finals of the Prix de Lausanne, Genee etc. and into the top European upper schools.  Prudence Bowen Atelier, which I believe is the school Claudia Dean was talking about, is just one of those.  As I understand it, pupils at those private "full-time" schools complete their academic education via distance learning.  Of course, choosing to complete your schooling outside the state system is also dependent upon family income, which is another question all together...

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I think that we should not overlook the fact that some students/dancers are just better than others. Two dancers can have exactly the same training but the outcome is unlikely to be the same. It's the same with many other areas of activity but, in the case of ballet, the physique is all important (build, proportions, flexibility, strength etc) and is part of what makes the student's/dancer's 'talent'. Some things are outside the student's/dancer's control; some things are influenced by personality and can be hard to change and some things can be improved by hard work.

 

If a survey was done in, say, Japan and England ranking by ability those students who were planning to become ballet dancers at, say, 14 I wonder whether there would be the same ability range in both countries. We worry that Japan produces better dancers than the UK but we only see the best ones who also have the drive and determination to come the UK. The more average ones stay in Japan. Of course, a survey of the kind which I have just mentioned would inevitably be very subjective, but it would be interesting to see the results.

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I have noted before, but I think it bears repeating in this context, that RBS's reputation is based partly on it's graduate employment rate. But this in turn is generated by its acceptance into the upper school of the cream of international applicants at the expense of the students it has trained from age 11 (or sent off to other schools to be UK trained). So it is a bit unfair of them to take all the credit for graduates who have spent from age 3 (potentially) to age 16 or so being trained by someone else and only 2 years wth RBS....

 

And I would say I am sure very many UK born and trained are working in internationally renowned companies but at what level? My evaluation of the possible effect of being pushy or not did acknowledge that less pushy training would still churn out a goodly number of corps level dancers- just maybe not as many really exceptional ones.

 

Btw the Russians who DS trained with a while ago noted particularly the lack of UK born and trained international principals- which would in keeping with the above. Interestingly though they were quite positive about the Upper School- just didn't rate the lower school (and please don't shoot me down in flames- I am not saying I agree with them- but it did worry me and probably contributed to our sending DS to a Vaganova school).

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