Simply Adult Ballet: the progress of one adult dancer who took up ballet later in life

[Michelle_Richer]

Sunday was Adrian my boy friend and PDD partner’s first real ballet class at Elmhurst with RAD. As usual I went and attended all 4 classes during that day.

 

I had a brief word with our teacher and introduced Adrian to her. The first class was the Absolute beginners, although I didn’t think of it at the time of introduction, I made sure that Adrian and I swapped places each time we changed sides at the barre, so he could always follow me, I was a little concerned as I hadn’t said anything to our teacher. However when she see what I was doing, she just smiled approvingly and said “Thank you Michelle”, that made me feel a whole lot better. The down side was I couldn’t see how Adrian was doing.

 

I know he enjoyed the barre but found the centre work a bit daunting and has asked me to go through it with him during the week, at least what I can remember. Next time I must take special note so I can go through it with him the following week. At least he seems to have enjoyed it and wants to go again.

 

Hopefully I can persuade him to do the body conditioning class too. I’m hoping at least two of his friend from my Glen Ballet rep group come along with him next time too, as they will be in the same boat. Needless to I was very proud of him on Sunday now he has broken the ice.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Michelle_Richer

[LinMM]

I think it's brilliant that your friend Adrian has started ballet classes for himself. Good on him! And it's always very valuable learning from a fully qualified teacher etc.

[Michelle_Richer]

Mmmm interesting choice of words Lin, Yes he had a really good teacher at Elmhurst on Sunday, easy to follow and gave lots of feedback to everyone, both corrective and complementary, I have had her before and she’s really lovely.

 

You have to remember Adrian has had coaching before from as you say “fully qualified teachers” with Emma my personal rep coach and principal of her own school in South Lincolnshire and well as Gillian the principal of Ballet West in Scotland, both of which are exceptional teachers.

 

However I would never take it that a “Fully Qualified Teacher” necessarily guarantees one gets a good teacher.

 

I cant help think this is a little dig at the tuition I have I have given Adrian both in our joint PDD work and also that which he has received from my company Glen ballet as one its dancers. If it is then its like water off a ducks back and certainly no offence taken.

 

However my roll in Glen Ballet as Ballet Mistress/ Choreographer / Artistic Director all rolled into one is developing. In Glen ballet we do thing a little differently.

 

 

1)The Company is run informally as a group of friends although the way it which we operates is highly structured

 

2)We allow prospective newbie’s to come and watch a session before joining, that’s how we recruited two of our male dancers.

 

3)No one gets left behind in dancing ability; it takes as long as it takes, as we are not schedule driven. If we have to abort a particular piece because it’s become stale and dancers are getting disheartened. The group make the decision to move on or not.

 

4)All girls get to do partner work with the guys unless they specifically don’t want to, unlike many workshops I’ve attended when only the best dancer get selected to do that.

 

5)Everyone has a say in what rep they are going to dance next. Each dancer can submit pieces for the group to consider, this usually takes place as a debate over a social evening then a consensus taken as to which is selected. Then everyone knows in advance what they are going to be dancing as their next piece.

 

6)Before a dancer starts on a new piece, the choreography is already documented in a standardised structure, including picture of important poses and positions together with variation dance rout and of course any youtube clip references and timing, this is intended to support homework for those that desire.

 

7)Each session consists of 30mins warm-up and barre, Rep 55mins, with 5mins for cool-down and stretch.

 

8)Coaching is intended to be progressive: The barre its not a beginners barre , but its kept fairly constant to allows the dancers to develop their technique through familiarity. Progression in rep will be achieved by the dancers themselves selecting the slightly more challenging pieces as their confidence builds and also from the Glen Ballet choreography that has to be inserted for compatibility with my group of dancers may also be more challenging.

 

As I said this is developing roll with a steep learning curve, this is the first time I have had time to write something of the philosophy of how we operate. It has lots of little challenges for me too, not only do I have to teach the guys parts but also dance it too if I need to make up the numbers. I guess my roll as a dancer is now a little diminished as there is a real need to observe as I found by not doing so with our first piece “Waltz of the Swans”. I was so busy dancing in front; I had no idea how well the girls were doing behind me, that was a big mistake on my part, but I’m learning and loving it.

 

Oh I guess you can add another hat I have to wear “General Dogs Body”, I’ve spent most of this afternoon and a little time this evening after class sewing Toreador Capes for my 3 male dancers for Fridays session which is based on Don Q Cape dance and PDD.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Michelle_Richer

[LinMM]

I assume Michelle that you are pretty pleased yourself that Adrian has taken up the class at Elmhurst too!! Everyone needs to move forward with their knowledge of technique and practice....just as you yourself have sought teachers who have trained in ballet either as dancers or teachers to help you move forward ....that's all that was meant.

 

It's okay sometimes for friends etc to pass on knowledge at a certain level ......for example if I was just going on holiday to Spain and wanted a few phrases that would get me by whilst there ......there are quite a few friends who could pass this on to me without me having to take up classes!!

 

However if I wanted to get more serious about it and take it further than a few phrases I wouldn't expect friends to spend hours explaining when to use "estar" and when to use "ser" .....as there are two forms of the verb "to be " in Spanish etc etc

 

Then I would seek classes from a person who was trained to a much higher level in Spanish ( even a native speaker as we have for our classes in fact)

 

It's really the same for any subject as I see it

 

If you wanted to play a couple of tunes on the piano....then friends may be able to teach you but if you want to go further you seek out a piano teacher usually a professional but certainly above grade 8 etc if you were a beginner.

It doesn't mean your friends can't still teach you odd tunes that you like for fun etc ....or that you can't have a mini Spanish speaking evening with friends over a glass of Rioja ( though the Spanish would probably deteriorate a bit after the second glass)

 

it's natural to seek teachers who are qualified in whatever you want to learn.

 

Just to add a sort of related story ....I started having driving lessons with my father but couldn't get on with it as he was too critical.....it was like he expected me to know how to drive almost already and was very impatient if I made mistakes!

So I stopped and quite a few years later ....when not living at home ......found my own instructor and passed my test the first time (albeit after 8 months of lessons!!)

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin, I see you have picked up on the word friend in the context that any transfer of skills/knowledge cannot be taken seriously and also suggested you wouldn’t expect friends to commit hours to it.

 

Firstly there is a very good reason why I use the term friends, I am working within an established ballet school and I have a good working relationship with.  I’ve been hiring studios from them for some considerable time for myself only.

In running my Glen Ballet group, the terms of my hire is that its non profit making, I’m only allowed to recover my studio hire cost, otherwise it may be seen that I am in competition with that school. What is embarrassing but not intended is that attendance a my sessions are higher than that of the schools normal ballet class which I also attend. That does concern me somewhat.

It’s also worth pointing out that the relationship between myself and the dancers is very close, so I prefer not to use the term teacher but that of a ballet coach.

 

Lets take your point “you wouldn’t expect friends to take hours”, well I do spend an awful lot of hours both choreographing where necessary especially adding the boys activities in where it largely a female dominated scene, and of course documenting the choreography into a manual for that particular scene, that each dancer has a copy. Funny I have never seen such detailed info from any of the professional ballet teachers I know.

I love this term of yours “it's natural to seek teachers who are qualified in whatever you want to learn.” For me this is not enough, I expect them to do the job I have commissened them to do to my satisfaction.

 

I have often made the point numerous times about rep workshops and intensives supplying advance scene info of what they intend to teach, seldom is that fourth coming, it seems its not part of the ballet industry culture. It is ours.

 

If I were to write a specification of the services I required from a good ballet teacher, I would expect items 2 through to 6 of my previous posting to be included in some form or other, I guess there are not many if any that would match up to that statement of compliance.

 

For me this isn’t a joke or something I’m playing at and I do expect it to develop in scale, only time will tell.

[Anna C]

I think your expectations of a "good teacher" or a workshop are different to other people's though, Michelle. For dance students with 15+ years' training, their innate vocabulary means that they can pick up steps at an audition or workshop without having to see footage in advance. In some vocational exams there is a free enchainement section which tests this vocabulary and the candidate's ability to perform it immediately, under pressure and with correct technique.

 

Many qualified teachers have studied Benesh Movement Notation to some degree so use this to document choreography. Likewise, many teachers - especially ex professionals - have the class already in their heads when they turn up.

 

Everyone learns differently of course, but if you judge teachers on your - quite particular - expectations of them rather than their experience and/or qualifications, you may be disappointed and also doing them an injustice.

[LinMM]

I'm not going to,get into an argument on a public forum Michelle I will see you later today anyway and we will chat then

 

I feel you are reading too much into my words!!

 

Yes of course you may sometimes choose a teacher who is not to your liking for whatever reason but then you find another one.

But you need to start somewhere and most people would choose to start with a teacher who has the required skills.....on paper at least!!

[Moomin]

Unset enchainements actually start at grade 1 in our syllabus and get progressively more difficult with more steps as the exams progress. It's a really important skill but very difficult for some people, at least if you progress through the grades it becomes a more natural process. I do take Michelle's point that if it is a day workshop people want to feel that they have fully participated and learnt something and if you haven't yet developed those skills and can't pick up the main body of work very well it's not ideal and maybe methods should be adapted to be more inclusive. After all, they are not there as a 'professional' opportunity, it is meant to be an enjoyable day! In class etc though I think it's good to push yourself and develop those skills and the only way to improve is by having the pressure on!

[Kate_N]

When I've done rep classes & workshops, the teacher has always set his/her own version of the divertissements or corps choreography. There are numerous versions, and I am always really interested in the ways that different pieces are adapted. I remember in class years ago in Australia we were learning bits of Kitri - and we were using music scored by the great conductor John Lanchberry for the prima ballerina, Lucette Aldous. She is tiny, and so the piece that is Kitri's big entrance, and then a series of big jumps, was quite fast! Difficult for those of us with longer legs & taller bodies ...

 

But the point is that the facility for learning choreography was because of picking up combinations in class. I'm coming to see that it's an important skill, and adds greatly to my enjoyment of new classes - getting to grips with a new teacher's dance logic and way of moving his/her students. It all adds to the body knowledge!

[Anna C]

Unset enchainements actually start at grade 1 in our syllabus and get progressively more difficult with more steps as the exams progress. It's a really important skill but very difficult for some people, at least if you progress through the grades it becomes a more natural process. I do take Michelle's point that if it is a day workshop people want to feel that they have fully participated and learnt something and if you haven't yet developed those skills and can't pick up the main body of work very well it's not ideal and maybe methods should be adapted to be more inclusive. After all, they are not there as a 'professional' opportunity, it is meant to be an enjoyable day! In class etc though I think it's good to push yourself and develop those skills and the only way to improve is by having the pressure on!

That's a good point, Moomin. Are adult rep days and workshops generally aimed at a certain level? That might work well; give those with less experience who haven't yet absorbed an extensive ballet vocab more preparation opportunity by sending them footage to watch and prepare in advance. Then on the other side of the coin you could also run workshops for more advanced adult students who have good solid technique and a more extensive vocabulary of steps in their arsenal, who enjoy the challenge of picking up routines under a bit more pressure. That means the experience is more enjoyable for all.

 

My original point was that if a student is struggling with picking up steps or any other aspect of a class or workshop, it's not fair to assume that the *teacher* is not therefore a "good teacher" - perhaps the *student* is not in the most appropriate level for what suits them and their way of learning? Hence if rep workshops for adults were split into different levels as they are for drop in classes etc, it might be helpful.

[Moomin]

 

 

My original point was that if a student is struggling with picking up steps or any other aspect of a class or workshop, it's not fair to assume that the *teacher* is not therefore a "good teacher"

I am in complete agreement with you on this and my definition of a good teacher is not the same as Michelle's. However I do feel that the ability to 'pick up' quickly is not necessarily proportional to experience or technical proficiency. Some people just have much better short term memory than others. Even in a class of children at the same grade/ stage some are much better at this than others. I don't attend many dance workshops, there will be others on here much more qualified to comment, but the norm for other type of workshops is to receive a run down of the day, background reading, pre- workshop exercises etc so that you go to the workshop with enough background knowledge to participate fully. It's not unreasonable to expect that, it may not be that the full dance is sent out but maybe a run down of the day, which character/ variation (not necessarily version as it may be the teachers own and they may wish to tailor it to participants), list of steps to revise, background of the ballet in question etc. adults do require a slightly different approach as do different learnings styles. In general I think adults are actually better at picking up quickly than kids at a similar technical level because they attend more open classes and it is a skill that needs (a lot of) practice for many of us!

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi ladies

 

I guess I’m swimming against the tide again by the number of likes against my lovely opposition in culture , but hey ho I’m a strong swimmer.

 

However I think some of the augments are somewhat confused as to which of two main issues are being addressed. Firstly my roll in running the Glen Ballet Group. And secondly my expectations of a teacher for myself, but do correct me if I’m wrong.

 

First my student landscape tends to be mainly the older end of the spectrum like myself, although all the ladies do attend other ballet classes but they are not accomplished amateur performers or ex-professional dancers, in fact one of our ladies is really frustrated with her poor short term memory, but she loves to dance, I really feel for her, so who am I to discourage her. As I said to her, it will take as long as it takes, we don’t have a schedule to keep. Also my guys have done next to no ballet before, like my Adrian they have been sort of shanghaied into it. Never the less they are all enjoying it immensely.

For me this is about being dancer orientated, helping them live the dream. That’s why I encourage them choose the repertoire they would like to dance, I simply coach it, and make it possible from the basics and provide the documentation to support it , including sometimes helping out with basic costumes and props. And of course lots of patients, particularly with the guys.

 

The idea of using Benesh Movement Notation to document it for these dancers would be a totally inappropriate. Both Benesh and Labanotation are not at all intuitive. I have ask a couple of what I would call good teachers from different schools if they have used either notation, only one had used Labanotation and then only barely as a student. I guess then it’s likely to be left to something easy and simple to use. As least with Glen Ballet we have given it a standard structure that our dancers find easy to use and do use it to practice. So I guess its horses for course.

 

When it comes to choosing repertoire for myself, those that know me, know that a couple of years ago or so, I would hoover up nearly all rep workshops and intensives until I became disillusioned with them. Firstly I never really went to a rep workshop to be challenged, I went there to dance the piece, in other words complete the job. So my focus changed by taking control and selecting my own  rep that I wanted to dance, then effectively commissioning a coach to allow me to meet that objective. Like most things it has evolved. My rep often turns out to be a hybrid version of two or more ballet companies, selecting what  consider to be their best parts. Coaching has evolved into twice weekly  one-to-one sessions with practice between.

Reading many of the comments related to rep mainly in the workshop or audition context, tends to suggest this is mainly a transitory activity. For me its not, I have 3 parallel rep activities running side by side that have to be manage:

 

Firstly I have my annual plan of what I’m taking up to Ballet West each year, the loading of that also increases each year. For 2016/17 I have 7 solo’s and 3 PDD's, currently I’m working on the Black Swan PDD and the Russian dance solo from Swan lake for that one.

 

Secondly I have Glen Ballet rep to coach “ The Toreador Cape dance and PDD”

Thirdly I have rehearsals for our The Alive Ballet Companies visit and performance in Saint Petersburg and also rehearsals for our Christmas show. To some degree we are trying to do both on the same night.

So Rep for me is clearly nearly all the time, punctuated by a few ballet and fitness classes and very little sleep.

.

[youngatheart]

Sorry to put the cat among the pigeons here, but I'm afraid alarm bells are ringing for me.

 

Basically Michelle as I understand it you are not a qualified ballet teacher, but you are giving full class including barre, center and pas de deux to complete beginners and other relatively inexperienced dancers, some of them seniors?

 

Quite frankly I am more than a little surprised that the studio are allowing this. Whose public liability insurance is covering it? I very much doubt that if the worst happened and an injury accident occurred that their insurance would pay out for it under such circumstances. Do you have any of your own?

 

Also do you have valid PRS and PPL licences etc?

 

I think it is great that you are producing all the documentation etc, which is obviously something you are really good at, but IMO you really need to have a qualified teacher on board as well.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Youngatheart

 

I very intrigued by your post, I am sorry I haven’t replied before but I’ve had a spring of 7 day ballet runs with long hours.

I must say I was a little surprised at an almost compliment “I think it is great that you are producing all the documentation etc, which is obviously something you are really good at”. In my working life it had to be not only was all documentation under configuration control, it was formally verified too. I'm not saying I found utopia, but I have a system of documentation that works, its both easy to follow and intuitive by the dancers, but never the less still has room to evolve .

 

I note Anna_C comment “Many qualified teachers have studied Benesh Movement Notation to some degree so use this to document choreography”, after talking to many teachers, their experience with this has only been academic while in training, they have never used this in practice. However I do have the book “Dance Notation for Beginners” by Ann Kippling Brown and Monica Parker, covering both Labanotation and Benesh Movement Notation, its by no means intuitive and completely inappropriate for the dancers of my group.

 

As for Youngatheart’ comment “Quite frankly I am more than a little surprised that the studios are allowing this”:

 

Firstly I have never had problems in hiring studios and I have hired several in London as well as in my own area, needless to say I make several hires a week.

 

Secondly: That Ballet school owner and teachers know me well and I am really really grateful that they have allowed me to book one of their studios during prime time. When I have afternoon booking in the winter, they usually put the heating on in that studio before I arrive, they have always really looked after me. The school has three studios which are kept spotless, a café area and a shop. Its general standard is well above most in London. Even though I have alternatives I would be sad to loose that school, it really is very special.

 

Thirdly: I have the appropriate administration in place including signed disclaimers.

 

Its also worth pointing out generally I have no problem in utilising spare studio space, at most ballet schools I attend during periods of natural break. Furthermore I will be seeking similar permission during my attendance at 47th World Congress in Dance Science in Saint Petersburg.

 

Dear Youngatheart I am somewhat perplexed by your comment “you really need to have a qualified teacher on board as well”, perhaps you could indicate why and what there roll would be.

 

Another point I don’t quite understand is where you have made the point “some of them seniors?” should I treat them differently,  if so, why?, perhaps you can explain.

[Anna C]

My comments about Benesh Notation were in response to this comment of yours, Michelle:

 

".....and of course documenting the choreography into a manual for that particular scene, that each dancer has a copy. Funny I have never seen such detailed info from any of the professional ballet teachers I know." My point being that most professional ballet teachers would not NEED to "document the choreography" because it's either in their head, or already documented by a Benesh Notator.

 

It is a well known fact that bones do weaken and become more brittle as people age, so yes, you *should* treat seniors differently by minimising the chances of them falling and breaking a bone - by having appropriate safety measures in place.

 

Finally, the role of a qualified teacher? Well, to TEACH, obviously. If you are practicing over and over again with incorrect technique and nobody to correct you, how can you hope to improve technically? IMHO "Practice makes perfect" should really be "Practice makes permanent". So you could in theory be reinforcing sickled feet, for example, each session. Without a decent, qualified teacher, who is actually correcting technique in your group?

 

I've said this before, but if Royal Ballet Principals can and do take correction from a teacher during class, even they still have something to learn. So it stands to reason that the rest of us mere mortals do too.

[youngatheart]

Thanks for your post Michelle.

 

Firstly let me say that I DO understand and sympathise with where you are coming from, i.e. you feel no-one is providing the exact kind of repertoire workshops that you want, so you have decided to create them yourself.

 

However I would contend that the very fact that you have needed to ask some of the questions you have asked just serves to prove my original point!

 

Anna C has already done a very good job of answering most of them, but just to clarify what I meant further:

 

"As for Youngatheart’ comment “Quite frankly I am more than a little surprised that the studios are allowing this. Firstly I have never had problems in hiring studios and I have hired several in London as well as in my own area, needless to say I make several hires a week."

 

I am not talking about studio hires for your own personal practice Michelle - while in my personal opinion you have at times displayed a somewhat cavalier approach in relation to certain injuries you have sustained, that is entirely your own affair and you have the right to make whatever choices you want when they only concern yourself. However when you are responsible for other people you simply have to have a "duty of care" towards them. It has been my experience that halls and studios do normally ask for proof of public liability insurance and other licences before they will accept bookings for dance classes.

 

"Secondly: That Ballet school owner and teachers know me well and I am really really grateful that they have allowed me to book one of their studios during prime time. When I have afternoon booking in the winter, they usually put the heating on in that studio before I arrive, they have always really looked after me. The school has three studios which are kept spotless, a café area and a shop. Its general standard is well above most in London. Even though I have alternatives I would be sad to loose that school, it really is very special."

 

I am still surprised that they are allowing you to teach classes in their studio when you are not qualified to do so. if something goes wrong it could cause problems for them.

 

"Dear Youngatheart I am somewhat perplexed by your comment “you really need to have a qualified teacher on board as well”, perhaps you could indicate why and what there roll would be. Another point I don’t quite understand is where you have made the point “some of them seniors?” should I treat them differently,  if so, why?, perhaps you can explain."

 

The fact that you need to ask this at all says volumes! Although I have never met you or seen you dance, from your "ballet CV" it is clear that you must be a competent dancer yourself - but that does NOT in any way qualify you to teach - they are two completely different things! Anna C has already explained - but as part of their qualification, teachers have to learn anatomy, safe dance practice for different age groups etc. As well as being required for Health & Safety reasons, you also need to be able to teach correct technique, modifying it for different body types and accommodating injuries etc.

 

Basically you are illustrating the point that "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" - you have enough ballet knowledge to be able to do what you are doing, but not enough to know what else you need to know before you should be doing it.

 

At the very least, please please please could you promise me that the pas de deux does not include lifts?

[bangorballetboy]

 

Thirdly: I have the appropriate administration in place including signed disclaimers.

 

 

 

If you are running classes without adequate insurance in place, I would suggest you speak to a solicitor as you may not have the protection you think you do just from signed disclaimers.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Anna C

I’m sorry but the evidence I've come across by talking to the Ballet Teachers I know, Benesh Movement Notation is not something they use. I’m using this in the context of a ballet teachers running regular adult classes etc, and not a teacher running or coaching students of the Royal Ballet.

As for teachers running amateur ballet performing companies, choreography is often created on the fly and not recorded other than to video it. I know in some instances when we’ve learnt a short piece of our sequence with our teacher and the pianist has continued playing, I have ad-libed dancing beyond that point with the music, it has often been remarked by our teacher “Thanks Michelle” Ill use that.

 

The system of documenting the rep firstly allow me to think and plan what I’m about to do, Its helpful to the teachers that coaches me, and where I’m running a rep group it is part of the foundation of what is expected from that scene, it also underpins any off-site practice that may takes place. The only exception I apply is where there may be a possible health and safety issues , eg turns, then the scene is choreographed up to that point, then a talk with the group soon resolves what they are safe and comfortable with. That has resulted in two options being documented in their current piece which is now due for a dress run next week as I’m hoping to close the current piece down before I’m away in Saint Petersburg.

 

The group have already chosen their Christmas piece before I get back, they are to do the Merliton Pas de Trios from Nutcracker.

 

As for Seniors risk of brittle bones, I guess that’s already close to my heart (or feet) for that matter as I’m actually older in chronological years than my oldest dancer. However no one is being subjected to undue risk as the follow things are already in place:
1) Dancers discuss and decide on the rep they wish to dance and areas of concern discussed.

2) Pre knowledge as I dance with most of them at a ballet class with a “trained teacher”, so I already have a good insight into their capability and limitations.

3) Suitable alternative options are discussed with the group as to if they all would like to execute the same steps, or an optional branching whilst still maintaining continuity and whilst still dancing together as a group.

4) Provide additional training if requested and thought feasible to significantly minimise risk.

I’m also mindful that a dancer should not be held back as I was with an over cautious teacher, where I was not allowed to go pirouette doubles or do cabrioles in class, even though for cabrioles I had performed them on stage with one phrase containing 6.

 

The final decision is always with the dancer, I can only guide them, the rest is left to trust between us.

Love the TEACHER bit. I must say in the few months I’ve been running this group I’ve been learnt alot, and as a result I have changed the structure of the things we do. We started off with a time line of activity slots over 1 hour period, but when we ran it, it was unmanageable. The need for correction particularly at the barre was immense, particularly with the guys, with slow progress through the rep.

The first significant change was to have a full half hour at the barre with feedback, which is correction and complements too which I have found equally important to maintain confidence.

 

The second was to extend the whole period to one and a half hours with nearly an hour for rep alone.

 

The third significant change was from always dancing by example in the front as one of the dancers, to dancing initially as the example to follow, and then observing and correcting the group as their ballet mistress . 

 

Technique is improving all the time but never the less it’s still really challenging, my boyfriend Adrian for instance has a naturally turned in foot, he now has developed some turn out and is starting to believe in himself.

Both Adrian and one of my ladies have started the RAD adult associates at Elmhurst as a result of belonging to this group.

 

I agree completely with you last paragraph, that why I use my private rep coach twice a week and Gillian from Ballet West for a whole week each year.

 

 

Hi Youngatheart

I note you comment on “Duty of care”, there are two distinct issues implied there:

 

 Firstly you mention “you have at times displayed a somewhat cavalier approach in relation to certain injuries you have sustained”, I would turn the interpretation around and suggest I have a high tolerance towards risk to me personally in order to push for that extra mile of achievement, I'm by no means passive or go with the flow.

You also mention which I believe is a different issue “However when you are responsible for other people you simply have to have a "duty of care" towards them”, in principle I don’t have too much of a problem with that, Im cetainly not recless with it, but at the same time I will not molly coddle them by restricting their learning and development without good reason.

As you need to make the comment about  PDD’s and lifts, I guess you don’t know me very well. Although I have a high tolerance to risk I'm not down right stupid and yes I have tested the feasibility of this with my partner Adrian in a controlled way. It was a no, no, so there is no way I would introduce that into our group. However in a completely different setting I have been lifted above a guys head who was deemed to have the strength to do it. I hope that answers your concern.

 

Hi Bangorballetboy
Noted, I will check it out, thank you.

 

 

General: If it really is rubbish repertoire that I am coaching then the group will naturally wither and die.

If alternatively we have a winning structural combination that dancers seek then we likely to grow and roll out into other locations.

For me the coaching is only a small part, my object is to create the dream for our dancers. I'm already talking about a joint relationship with a lady who intends to set up a small amateur orchestra, I have a brilliant musician in the pipe line that I would like to work with, and we have already talked turky over fees.

So if it’s a flyer, its got along way to go, and guess what, I have no personal gain other than my passion of ballet and helping others realise their dream.

[youngatheart]

Michelle,

 

You are not qualified to teach class or to correct technique in others. It's as simple as that.

 

Your comments about not restricting ambition or "holding people back" also concern me. If a teacher banned you from certain movements when safety was not the issue, it would have likely been because he/she believed that you needed to improve some aspect of the underlying technique first In order to prevent a bad habit developing. This is not "molly-coddling", it is sound pedagogy - another concept that you do not seem to be familiar with.

 

If you really want to continue along this path, then I would suggest that you explore the possibility of training towards a teaching qualification yourself.

[Anna C]

Youngatheart, I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

Michelle, if I've understood the following paragraphs correctly, am I right in thinking that you see yourself as the group's teacher/Ballet Mistress?

 

"Love the TEACHER bit. I must say in the few months I’ve been running this group I’ve been learnt alot, and as a result I have changed the structure of the things we do. We started off with a time line of activity slots over 1 hour period, but when we ran it, it was unmanageable. The need for correction particularly at the barre was immense, particularly with the guys, with slow progress through the rep.

The first significant change was to have a full half hour at the barre with feedback, which is correction and complements too which I have found equally important to maintain confidence.

 

The second was to extend the whole period to one and a half hours with nearly an hour for rep alone.

 

The third significant change was from always dancing by example in the front as one of the dancers, to dancing initially as the example to follow, and then observing and correcting the group as their ballet mistress."

 

Firstly, I don't follow your meaning with regards to "Love the TEACHER bit"?

 

Secondly, if I understand you correctly, are you saying your previous dance experience and current level qualifies you to give correction to others, demonstrate as an example, and correct others? Because I would have to disagree. Learning rep, having lovely and expensive costumes, and having an intensive week once a year does not make you a current or ex professional dancer or a qualified teacher. Both those would have impeccable technique, years and decades of training, and have studied intensively in all of the following areas: Anatomy, Correct technique, injury prevention, syllabus where studied, breaking down exercises and steps in order to teach effectively, etc. They would also have worked technically to at least RAD Intermediate exam standard or equivalent.

 

You correcting others and calling yourself a Ballet Mistress is extraordinarily disrespectful to all those wonderful teachers and professionals who have had years of intensive training and dancing with beautiful correct technique. I don't wish to be rude but Youngatheart is right, you are not qualified to teach or correct others. Even the most beautiful repertoire in the world is nothing if it is danced with incorrect technique. Apart from aesthetics, correct technique and alignment helps to prevent injury.

 

If you and your friends enjoy getting together to learn ballet, why don't you club together and hire a qualified teacher? Then you could all learn the rep you want but with someone qualified teaching you at an appropriate level and with correct technique.

 

Or, as Youngatheart suggests, stop the "teaching" for now, start taking RAD Vocational exams, and think about studying for a teaching qualification?

[Michelle_Richer]

Dear Youngatheart

Thank you for you comments, firstly I’m going to reject you first remark as the teacher banning me from certain movement to keep it in context, no one in the class for pirouettes were allowed to do doubles although it wasn’t uncommon in the classes I did at Pineapple where I did them, . Sadly if you are told enough times you stop doing them , you start to loose that ability. As for Cabrioles the situation was slightly different and as indicated I was already doing these at a different school and allowed to perform on stage with them.

 

As for your last para, when I was attending RAD associates last Sunday, I meant to make enquires in that general direction, but that slipped my mind during my rep practice, however I not looking to follow a career as a ballet teacher as such.

 

 

Dear Anna C

Your comment “If you and your friends enjoy getting together to learn ballet, why don't you club together and hire a qualified teacher? Then you could all learn the rep you want but with someone qualified teaching you at an appropriate level and with correct technique”

 

First Learning rep for me, I already have a rep coach, which as previously indicated I use twice a week. That is purely for technique as I am the custodian of the rep itself. That rep is totally inappropriate for my group.

 

Second My group are free to organise anyone they wish to coach rep for them including as you say qualified teachers.

 

Third My involvement has been, they have simply asked me to help them. I have not canvased to establish this group. As I was asked I will not shy away and I will continue to help them for as long as they need me.

 

Fourth you seem to have used a bit of a smoke scene about having lovely and expensive costumes as if that’s undesirable. Having the correct attire also play a part how something is presented to the audience, check Giselle's solo from Act 1 where she uses port de bras with her skirt, its not the same without it.

 

Fifth you have used t having an intensive week for once a year, totally out of context. This has been the culmination of a selections from a whole years works on rep which represent several hours every week including 2 hours every week with my rep coach. That is by no means learning rep but high emphasis on both technique and audience orientation. That what my week at Ballet west is all about. It also conducted on a one-to-one basis. This next year will be my fourth year with them, the plan of what we are doing is already set. Needless to say its worlds away from what you would do at a LAB or similar Intensive.

 

Sixth Correction given to student dancers, I have found this in most instances is spread too thinly on the ground to be properly effective, I know its more difficult for the lager classes. I feel most correction is left to self correction with proper use of the mirror, however I have found RAD at Elmhurst brilliant at giving this in the form of feedback, both positive and negative. That why I encourage my dancers to include that in their basic ballet training.

 

Seven Qualified teachers teaching an appropriate level with correct technique. Even these well qualified people are not immune from the occasional sloppy technique, they are human too. Ones I see quite frequently are poor or no perceivable tendu on rising and closing grand batterments, poor closing tendu from second through a plie where its difficult to determine if its done as a single movement or two separate movements. Another is tendu to second followed by an change of weight through a plie, where the foot is accidentally lifted off the floor to the new position almost like a tombe. I hope I don’t do these thing but I guess on a bad day I probably do.

 

Needless to say ladies I remain unrepentant and will continue to offer my brand of help as long as its needed, it will either flourish or die naturally under its own merit.

[Anna C]

As you say Michelle, you remain unrepentant, and seemingly determined to continue "teaching" despite advice given here. I hope you do not put anyone at risk of serious injury.

 

If I may give you one final piece of advice, I would suggest showing a little respect to professionals and teachers.

[youngatheart]

Michelle there is obviously no reasoning with you - but let me just say this;

 

Our comments have been in response to what you yourself have posted on here. We can only take as we find. However please bear in mind that you do not know who else reads this board - or who else they (or indeed we) may know.

 

The adult ballet world is not so vast that things do not get around. Surely the degree of sheer arrogance and disrespect that you have displayed in your last post is not something that you would ever want some of your own teachers to hear about?

 

Also I believe that I have been able (purely out of curiosity) to identify both the studio you are hiring & your rep coach from the details you have provided with just a cursory search of the Web. If I could do that, so could anyone else. So I would advise you to please be more careful about both the tone and content of what you post on a public forum....

Edited October 24, 2016 by youngatheart

[Kate_N]

 Qualified teachers teaching an appropriate level with correct technique. Even these well qualified people are not immune from the occasional sloppy technique, they are human too. Ones I see quite frequently are poor or no perceivable tendu on rising and closing grand batterments, poor closing tendu from second through a plie where its difficult to determine if its done as a single movement or two separate movements.

 

I've been sitting on my hands, but wow! just wow over this. Such disrespect and arrogance.

 

My teachers are teaching me, not taking class. Teachers demonstrate - they don't dance full out. And I was once taught by a very elderly teacher who never demonstrated, but spoke the exercises from his chair, and demonstrated sitting and/or using his stick. I'm not a trained teacher, but I know enough to see whether a teacher knows what she/he is talking about. And we never know what injuries a teacher is carrying which preclude them from doing certain things. 

 

Thing is, learning ballet is learning a complex art. It's not notching up ever more complex steps or repertoire for bragging points. It's not like being an accountant.

[Fiz]

I hope no dance teacher I know ever sees such brash and disrespectful remarks. All the ones I have ever known have been incredibly hard working and genuinely interested in and concerned for their pupils and their progress. After only four years of ballet, do you really think you know everything there is to know about ballet and dancing, Michelle? Professional dancers go on learning for a life time. As for teaching others, I think you should worry about your own abilities before you presume to instruct others.

[Moomin]

I agree with you there fiz. We had one teacher who wasn't quite up to parr if I'm honest but all the rest have been as you describe.

[lartiste]

Out of interest - whether I agree with Michelle or not on this - is the modus operandi of the forum now going to be that if one person happens to differ in opinion from everyone else we all wade in as a gang to ensure they think in 'the right way' id est in accordance with our own personal dogma. To be quite frank sitting on the side lines this baiting isn't pleasant to observe. The forum was a nicer place when adult dancers shared their experiences of ballet in this thread without fear of retribution.

[Anna C]

Out of interest - whether I agree with Michelle or not on this - is the modus operandi of the forum now going to be that if one person happens to differ in opinion from everyone else we all wade in as a gang to ensure they think in 'the right way' id est in accordance with our own personal dogma. To be quite frank sitting on the side lines this baiting isn't pleasant to observe. The forum was a nicer place when adult dancers shared their experiences of ballet in this thread without fear of retribution.

To be fair, lartiste, if you read back over the 69 pages of this thread - and its predecessor, which was of a similar length - you will see that this isn't as simple as one person who happens to differ in opinion, or not thinking in "the right way". Over the few years that Michelle has been learning ballet, there have unfortunately been repeated incidences of her showing a good deal of disrespect to teachers, professional dancers, fellow adult students and other forum members. We have also made the point before that if Michelle wishes to put herself at risk, then that is her choice, but as she now states that she is "teaching/coaching others" then it is not only Michelle at risk, but other people too.

 

This is not a question of trying to get someone to think in the "right way" according to our "personal dogma", and I find that rather insulting. This is a case of abiding with our forum rule to respect others, and concern for the safety of Michelle's "students" given her previous attitude to risk and injury, and her lack of qualifications or experience.

 

In my opinion, three or four people disagreeing with one person is not "ganging up". If you have any concerns that our Acceptable Use policy is not being followed then please use the report function.

 

Many thanks.

[2dancersmum]

I agree that this thread does not make pleasant reading but I cannot agree on the terms of 'baiting' or 'ganging up'.  It does not matter which thread you are on - multiple people will comment on the same post - sometimes in agreement or sometimes in disagreement. It is only natural that on a discussion forum more than once person will want their say.

 

I also agree that the forum is a nicer place when people share their experiences of ballet without fear of retribution. But surely that works both ways. You can share your experiences without being disrespectful or criticising professional dancers, experienced teachers and fellow forum members.

[Moomin]

There are only 3 or 4 opinions expressed to michelle which out of the people who read the thread is really quite a low number. I have certainly understood from michelle that she enjoys the banter and will pursue her course regardless of others opinions. michelle has strong opinions herself so probably inevitable that she will lock horns with others at times.

[LinMM]

Michelle I have refrained from commenting further on this topic because of our friendship but you must know me well enough to know that I cannot agree with the last paragraph you wrote in your last post!!

 

I have lessons once a fortnight from a most wonderful teacher who is now 88 years old. Because of his age he cannot of course demonstrate in the way he could when younger but someone in the class can usually demonstrate for him. It's his advice and teaching which is now just more than valuable....treasured in fact by all who attend his class!! I wish I could put into words how wonderful this class is ....because the focus is on the Dance ....rather than the technique ....however the technique comes up all the time as it's the foundation from what you move out from. And it's the laying down of this good foundation which frees you to find your own Dance as such. I see the two as completely interdependent and finding a balance between the two is a main task for a dancer I think.

 

I know you are not teaching set syllabus etc and probably would not be attracted to this ...but most teachers who do have to reach at least minimum of Intermediate level before being able to train as teachers and then the training on top ....so I do think you should respect this at least.

[Tulip]

Your teacher sounds wonderful LinMM, the respect and commitment you have towards him is so lovely. I am sure that to get where he is today, he has had years of training, dancing and teaching.

[Tulip]

My daughter taught at a few classes just before she left for her first contract. She has been taught to professional standard, she has also studied anatomy as part of her degree. The first thing she wanted to observe before teaching was the level of the dancers and their needs. She took advice from the other teachers who she was going to cover. I know she worried about teaching, but she did enjoy it, and had so much more to learn herself.