assemble mum Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) To do the maths very roughly.... say 5 companies with maximum 2 or 3 vacancies depending on funding,repertoire etc. So possibly 10 vacancies which wont all be permanent. Graduates come from the 4 main contender schools .... say 24 per school or that ball park figure. Plus graduates from other smaller institutions.So getting rougher by the minute 100 graduates for 10 jobs. Now add in all the graduates globally .Plus a fair smattering of last years graduates who are still on the market for whatever reason and you ve got yourself some very hot competition. Every graduates needs to realise that they need to take a global view and audition abroad as well as at home. Go for the dream, strive for the dream but be realistic. Plus dont forget they may want all boys or just girls depending on the vacancy so you may not even be in with a chance !!!!!!!!! Edited March 30, 2012 by assemble mum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Sobering figures, assemble mum. Students cannot assume that they will get a job in the UK. As you say, they must audition abroad, and face the very realistic prospect of having to work abroad for the entirety of their professional careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Every year, the Graduates are offered a six month (Apprentice) contract (with UK and foreign companies). It is extremely rare they are offered permanent contracts as soon as they graduate. Only the very best will get a Permanent Contract after six months, the other young dancers will be back "on the market" (no disrespect!) looking for a job again. That's how things roll with the graduate contracts. Edited spelling Edited March 30, 2012 by Nina G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Every year, the Graduates are offered a six month Apprenticeship contract (with UK and foreign companies). It is extremely rare they are offered permanent contracts as soon as they graduate. Only the very best will get a Permanent Contract after six months, the other young dancers will be back "on the market" (no disrespect!) looking for a job again. That's how things roll with the graduate contracts. Edited spelling Nina G - which school's graduates are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowan Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Can I ask, are apprentice contracts paid positions, or are they like the unpaid internships we hear so much about nowadays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Nina G., so are apprentice contracts the norm, even in the UK? When a corps dancer is listed in a programme or on a company's website is s/he often on a temporary contract? How long will a dancer normally wait until his/her contract becomes a permanent one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 In the past, many UK graduates went abroad to work - often the Ballet Companies and Opera Houses in Europe. However, many of these now have their own schools and also produce a surplus of graduates chasing the same jobs. It really is tough out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 JulieW, contracts (same for any other non-ballet related contract) are usually on a six months trial base, after which -if the employer is satisfied -the contract may become permanent. I have heard this from many parents and graduates alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Can I ask, are apprentice contracts paid positions, or are they like the unpaid internships we hear so much about nowadays? These are paid positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Oops - sorry I posted a comment at the same time as Nina G which duplicated so I deleted it, but now both have gone. In my experience of graduates over the last couple of years and this year, most of the Elmhurst and RBS graduates have had one year contracts, with a few getting apprenticeships, and some for 2 or 3 year contracts. My son this year has been offered a 2 year contract. Edited to add: Some of his friends have one year contracts, some have contracts for a short season of performances, one has an apprenticeship. The ones I knew last year who had apprenticeships found it hard as they were only paid per performance, and one of them ended up not doing any performances at all - but had a good experience furthering their training Some of these have been in this country and some in Europe. Edited March 30, 2012 by JulieW Added extra comments 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glowlight Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Sometimes apprenticeships are even shorter. Northern Ballet used to start graduates off with 3 month apprenticeships. Not sure if that's still the case. Some companies pay apprentices and some don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 There's an interesting article about POB posted under the "Links" heading today. In it the company's approach to hiring and promotion is explained. It's worth a read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Fascinating article by Lynn Seymour "Notes for the future". She offers some points of view for consideration by The Royal Ballet on p 35. "Dancing Times" - April Issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/arts/30iht-etoile30.html?pagewanted=2&_r=3&ref=arts .....and how about the Paris Opera Ballet? Here's some comparative reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Nina, Please don't take this the wrong way, but the content of your two posts above have already been remarked on by previous posters in Posts 195 and 210. Maybe worth reading previous posts before posting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Thank you for letting me know Ribbons. Will read all previous posting next time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DancingtoDance Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 A few years ago, the director of the RBS was asked who would be the "Next British Ballerina". I won't state her reply here but if anyone cares to google the directors name and the name of a very good Lilac Fairy and Mistress from Manon they will find quite a statement. Some British dancers now seem to prefer other companies. A very good White Lodger joined BRB at the beginning of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DancingtoDance Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Sorry, quoted incorrectly. In regards to the last post, please will somebody help me? I finally found out the director is Monica Mason but that's about it...? Thank you for any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 I'm sorry but I don't see why it is relevant. You can look up the biographies of all the dancers in the big companies here and it usually says where they trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marianne Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Tony was referring to the RBS director, the late Gailene Stock, not Monica Mason, who was director of the company. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifeafterballet Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Just a thought !! Rugby union premiership teams are only allowed to play so many non British players in their team. Maybe British ballet companies should consider this. Then there would be more British ballet company jobs for British students. Each British ballet company, as in rugby, would be allowed one marquee player/dancer ! Any thoughts ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nana Lily Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 The same could be said for the British Ballet Schools too.. Post 16 training when reading the names on the school programmes there are a great many names who aren't British. All these schools have tax payers funding which in the case of DADA funding is for any European national where the parental income is £90k or below. While also these schools rely on 'self funding' pupils (British and International) to survive there is clearly a mix places awarded to pure talent (can pay or not), talent who can pay (international or British) and those with talent who don't qualify for DADA, (but can't afford to pay) and those who qualify for DADA ( but can't afford the accommodation) and those with talent who qualify for DADA and are on low incomes so get extra help for accommodation but still often can't afford accommodation.) do I need to say more? It's now a numbers game if you end up affording to go to vocational school with funding. It's no longer based on talent alone. Schools in Europe in general are free (not neccessrily accommodation) but this isn't the case with Brutish Upper Schools so this undoubtedifly filters through to companies 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marianne Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Not sure that searching for "British names" is the most scientific method for measuring this... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Ballet is an international art & business. It always has been. The earliest "sensations" on the London stage in ballets such as Giselle were Italian and French. UK dancers work all over the world. If you start to close the doors in British ballet companies to non-UK born dancers, are you prepared for the rest of the world to close their doors to us? The thread started here yesterday about going to vocational school out of Britain would be impossible. And so on ... It's a rather problematic and potentially xenophobic approach. And bad for ballet audiences! As for schools - I know from working in a university that non-EU students pay what it actually costs - £9k per year tuition fee doesn't cover the actual cost of a university education. So those pesky foreigners actually subsidise our own domestic & EU students' costs. In universities, international students do not displace home/EU students - they are a different set of numbers. And we have a world-class education system - we should be proud that our schools and universities attract the best of the youth from all over the world. Lots of UK-born (if that's your criterion) teaching the talent from all over the world. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Well said Kate. The best dancers will get jobs, it may be here it may be abroad, so what. We have just returned from an international school audition for the very purpose of experiencing what it will be like to audition abroad. Also to bring home the fact to my DS that the dance world is international, it is not about what the competition is in your school or the other major schools in this country its worldwide. The other nationalities offer something different, and it is equally valid and you have to compete with that. I feel us Brits, generally, seem so scared of training abroad and letting our children go abroad - why? Dancing is a truly international career and our companies are better for it, the standard of our dancers is better for it. I for one would not want our companies limited, it would make our companies a laughing stock, as it is, they can represent some of the best in the world. We train fabulous dancers and they represent Britain all over the world too, but I'm quite sure they would not be as good if they didn't have to compete on an international level for school and company places. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Not sure that searching for "British names" is the most scientific method for measuring this... Exactly Marianne! At risk of being flippant when excellent points are being made all around me: I was shocked to discover that Emile Heskey was British, which I discovered when he was selected to play for England. Based solely on his name, I had assumed he was French! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Regarding schools and companies do POB have international students/company dancers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Even as we speak I know of one person on this Forum whose daughter is auditioning for a ballet company in Prague in the next few days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 The POB website has biographies of all the dancers. On quick perusal I have found 2 dancers who did not train at the POB school - one from Korea and I think the other may be from New Zealand. Feel free to do more research yourselves: https://www.operadeparis.fr/en/artists/ballet/ballet-company 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Harwel, I'm glad my view as merely an audience member and looker-on of careers in ballet is chiming with your far more hands on experience. One of the professional performers in my family has made a very good career outside of the UK, in spite of training here. And you only have to go to our US parallel ballet site: Ballet Talk for Dancers - to see a similar concern about US-born & trained dancers being "pushed" aside by "foreign" talent. Including British dancers! I do think that thinking internationally is the necessary next step in that series of steps from the suburban ballet school as a hobby, to discovering the passion & talent, to dipping a toe in the bigger waters of Associate programmes; then auditions for vocational programmes; then international ballet competitions; then auditions for companies. Each step takes one away from the comfort zone of the known & the familiar. But that discomfort might well be the thing that is the making of an artist. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabitha Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 And you only have to go to our US parallel ballet site: Ballet Talk for Dancers - to see a similar concern about US-born & trained dancers being "pushed" aside by "foreign" talent. Including British dancers! I don't understand how it can be British dancers as it is pretty much impossible for British ballet dancers to get a Visa to work in the USA, even when offered a contract and with the support of a ballet company behind you! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Yes I thought that was the case Tabitha and ditto POB. I may be Un necessarily paranoid but are other countries really as open to dancers as GB is?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nana Lily Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Kate N 'One of the professional performers in my family has made a very good career outside of the UK, in spite of training here.' Are you questioning the quality of your relatives UK training? Or are you saying that although he/she trained in the UK was able to gain employment internationally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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