Picturesinthefirelight Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) Right. In his 20 years of teaching in both the state, independent and post 16 sectors its something my husband has never come across. Edited June 6, 2017 by Picturesinthefirelight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Just now, Picturesinthefirelight said: Right. In his 20 years of teaching in both the state, independent and post 16 sectors its something my husband has never come across. Teaching what age group? And working in every LEA and for every GM school or academy as well... And of course working in youth services and all the uniformed youth organisations as well ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) Birmingham, Sandwell, Walsall, Cheshire, Kent, Nottingham, and a few others I've probably forgotten. Secondary State, Grammar, Academies, LEA Music Service, Independent school, POst 16 colleges, Primary/PPA cover, LEA licenced chaperone. Dada funded colleges. But show me the evidence such a policy existed and I will believe you. Edited June 6, 2017 by Picturesinthefirelight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I forgot Liverpool, London and the university/HE sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalletcoForum Moderators Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 A number of posts on this thread are hidden while they are under review as potentially contravening the Acceptable Use Policy and/or forum moderation policy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4dancers Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 My daughters were taught ballet by a man at their local dance school for a number of years and at our primary school, a man teaches Irish dance as an after school club. There are 6 male members of staff including the head and a teaching assistant. The only reason there are no males in the eyfs at said school is that they don't wish to work there although one of them said he may consider it in the future as part of his career development plan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I was on the committee of the local branch of the Pre-School Learning Alliance some years ago, and someone once mentioned in a meeting that there never seemed to be any male staff in the area, and wondered why. It turned out that none had ever applied. It doesn't seem to be a career that appeals all that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said: I was on the committee of the local branch of the Pre-School Learning Alliance some years ago, and someone once mentioned in a meeting that there never seemed to be any male staff in the area, and wondered why. It turned out that none had ever applied. It doesn't seem to be a career that appeals all that much. Replay that in your head with "female" in place of "male" and tell me how it sounds? Imagine a man in IT, say, saying it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 You can't give a job to someone if nobody applies. A friend's dd is currently at college training to be a nursery nurse. Everyone on the course is female. If there were some young men interested in becoming a nursery nurse, then there would be some doing the same training course as her, but there aren't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 2 hours ago, Colman said: Replay that in your head with "female" in place of "male" and tell me how it sounds? Imagine a man in IT, say, saying it. O/T - when I started working in our IT team as a programmer I was the 4th female out of around 60 staff and it was still considered unusual. No female staff were employed as operators because of the shift work. Times change but attitudes can be harder to change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Old habits die hard, Janet. I recently visited an IT firm on business, and since I was representing one of their larger clients, I was given a tour of the office and introduced to the relevant staff. The male/female split among the technical team was probably about 60/40. There were three staff from the IT firm with me in the meeting; one was a woman who took an equal part in conversations. However, since it was a long meeting, we had lunch provided... guess which one of the three cleared the table and arranged tea and coffee throughout the day? I was considerably taken aback, particularly as the men appeared to expect it, and she seemed to think it was normal and part of her role. I was sorely tempted to take her to one side and ask her why she let them get away with it! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 18 hours ago, taxi4ballet said: If anything, I've found that people in the performing arts world seem to have a far greater acceptance of sex/gender differences. Absolutely, Taxi4Ballet! Thanks for saying that so clearly. I was brought up in the theatre (on-stage in utero in fact!) and I think it is a brilliant environment in which to raise & train children. What you learn is that first & foremost, success is about hard work, discipline, and generosity. That it's about the work, not your ego or your feelings. And that things of great beauty take years of skill and love. And children of the "once a week" variety (and their parents) can see that as much as anyone else. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 On 05/06/2017 at 15:44, mph said: then there;s the presumption that a male teacher cannot teach the higher levels for female students becasue the traditionalists assert that boys don't (and shouldn't unless playing Bottom in Dream) do pointe ... I don't see what you're arguing here: it's entirely possible to teach pointe work when not on pointe oneself. Male teachers and choreographers have been doing it from the start of the evolution of the pointe show. In fact, the pointe shoe was "invented" at the behest of a male choreographer & teacher back in 1840s - the first pointe shoe was the standard satin slipper with strips of paste & paper on the inside of the shoe at the toes, and darning on the outside, to reinforce. Increduble skill & strength required. And as for ballet being a female dominated profession? Hmmmmmmm. Not so sure about that - most significant companies worldwide are directed by men. Most choreographers seen as "important" are men. The usual pattern I see in the profession (and quite up close - it abuts onto my professional expertise as well as my hobby) is the leading "artist" (male) and his assistant (female). The ballet world is part of our society, and reflects patriarchal structures just as much as any other area of contemporary society. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 22 hours ago, mph said: despite the fact that women are just as capable of being abusers ... I'm sorry but this statement cannot go unchallenged: as you say, women as "just as capable of being abusers." But the statistical evidence, and evidence from our justice system confirms that, on the whole, women DON'T abuse children. It is [some] men who commit the vast majority of child abuse. The stat is somewhere around the 90% mark (if not higher). And 75% of victims of their abuse are girls/women. And what you call "structural discrimination" against male professionals in safeguarding situations, others might call a long-overdue care for young people, particularly girls (and women in workplaces re sexual harassment), and a no-tolerance attitude to masculinist assumptions of their "rights" to do what they wish to/with young girls (and sometimes boys). I think we only have to look at the changes in attitudes towards the recent high-profile historical sexual abuse cases to see the results of earlier attitudes towards a sense of male "entitlement" to female bodies. If this makes things more difficult for the good men now (the majority of men, in other words), then I would hope that they understand why we are now extra-careful, and live with those constraints (after all, women live within the constraints of male violence all the time). The excesses of the past leave their marks - on individuals, and society. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Well, that's us told, eh? <abandons discussion in disgust> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Going back on track to the original purpose of this thread - this is possibly controversial, but I hope will inspire more debate. It has become received wisdom "we must get more boys to do ballet". Why? Are any ballet companies world wide complaining at a lack of male dancers? Are any vocational schools in this country complaining about a lack of male candidates at their auditions? Yes there are fewer boys than girls in "local schools" but in what way does this matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 47 minutes ago, Kate_N said: I'm sorry but this statement cannot go unchallenged: as you say, women as "just as capable of being abusers." But the statistical evidence, and evidence from our justice system confirms that, on the whole, women DON'T abuse children. It is [some] men who commit the vast majority of child abuse. The stat is somewhere around the 90% mark (if not higher). And 75% of victims of their abuse are girls/women. And what you call "structural discrimination" against male professionals in safeguarding situations, others might call a long-overdue care for young people, particularly girls (and women in workplaces re sexual harassment), and a no-tolerance attitude to masculinist assumptions of their "rights" to do what they wish to/with young girls (and sometimes boys). I think we only have to look at the changes in attitudes towards the recent high-profile historical sexual abuse cases to see the results of earlier attitudes towards a sense of male "entitlement" to female bodies. If this makes things more difficult for the good men now (the majority of men, in other words), then I would hope that they understand why we are now extra-careful, and live with those constraints (after all, women live within the constraints of male violence all the time). The excesses of the past leave their marks - on individuals, and society. Your stats are very much at odds with those produced by the Office of National Statistics. Also, you miss out the statistic that the perpetrator in the vast majority of child abuse cases is a family member or friend - interestingly for psychological abuse the figure for girls is 42% mother and 33% father and for physical abuse, 33% mother and 36% father. Your statement about "masculinist assumptions" is simply laughable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Kate_N said: I don't see what you're arguing here: it's entirely possible to teach pointe work when not on pointe oneself. Male teachers and choreographers have been doing it from the start of the evolution of the pointe show. In fact, the pointe shoe was "invented" at the behest of a male choreographer & teacher back in 1840s - the first pointe shoe was the standard satin slipper with strips of paste & paper on the inside of the shoe at the toes, and darning on the outside, to reinforce. Increduble skill & strength required. And as for ballet being a female dominated profession? Hmmmmmmm. Not so sure about that - most significant companies worldwide are directed by men. Most choreographers seen as "important" are men. The usual pattern I see in the profession (and quite up close - it abuts onto my professional expertise as well as my hobby) is the leading "artist" (male) and his assistant (female). The ballet world is part of our society, and reflects patriarchal structures just as much as any other area of contemporary society. you seem to be confusing the elite performance aspects with the day to day reality of the hobbyist participant / 'journeyman' teacher ... take a typical evening / saturday morning at a 'normal' dance school ... what;s the percentage of boys / men who come through the door i nthe first place and how many of them are none particpanting brothers / dads etc ... my point about pointe is the credibility of the teacher as performer , which is something which is common thread across all training settings, while i am very much a novice i nthe world of ballet, i've been teaching , assessing or QAing others teaching for aobut 20 years ... and a common theme is that a someone who has a suitable level of credibility in perfotmance is or is percieved ( by some quantitive measures for 'is ' and by qualitative methods foer the perception stuff ) to be a better teacher than someone wit hthe same teaching qualification but a lesser levle of practical experience ... a firend of mine who is currently none practising ( and not on the live register) Paramedic recently had to attend a First Aid at Work course for his current job which was taught by one of the big training providers ( the one with a colour and a shape ) and the trainer deliverign that course had little or no practical experience of first aid or ambulance work to the point that at the end of the first day my firend took the trainer aside and 'outed' himself and his background becasue what she was teaching was well off beam . Edited June 7, 2017 by mph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 2 hours ago, bangorballetboy said: Your stats are very much at odds with those produced by the Office of National Statistics. Also, you miss out the statistic that the perpetrator in the vast majority of child abuse cases is a family member or friend - interestingly for psychological abuse the figure for girls is 42% mother and 33% father and for physical abuse, 33% mother and 36% father. Your statement about "masculinist assumptions" is simply laughable. Exactly, there is a tendancy to focus on sexual abuse in such discussions but that suits the Millie Tant 2nd wave ' all men are rapists' line . If you take the UK definition of Rape it is impossible for someone without a Penis to be a rapist ... but the statement ' all rapists are men ' is not commutative ... Kate's comments are exactly the issues and mindset that create the issues we are discussing , the risk of stranger and/or not in the home abuse are lower, yet all the 'paedo-panic' is about this ... for those with long memeories the Brass Eye Paedopanic episode summed up a lot of the media driven hysteria. structural discrimination is the assumption that males performing 'initimate procedures' ( whether that is healthcare or personal care or whatever - and physicla corrections / costume fitting can border on this ) must be chaperoned but it;s ok for females to do it unsupervised / unchaperoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 16 hours ago, taxi4ballet said: I was on the committee of the local branch of the Pre-School Learning Alliance some years ago, and someone once mentioned in a meeting that there never seemed to be any male staff in the area, and wondered why. It turned out that none had ever applied. It doesn't seem to be a career that appeals all that much. Because of attitudes such as those displayed by Kate N claiming that men commit more abuse seeming ily without regard to the ONS figures that bangorballetboy quoted. I'm, sorry if it appears i'm digging at Kate N here , but the figures say what they say and the assertion she makes is not borne out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 On the contrary, I think it's more due to the pay rates & type of contracts pre school workers get. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (Dragging this thread by the scruff of the neck and back on topic...) There is a shortage of boys dancing at grass-roots level, and all programmes such as the MCC one are to be welcomed, in the hope that they can address the balance. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 10 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said: (Dragging this thread by the scruff of the neck and back on topic...) There is a shortage of boys dancing at grass-roots level, and all programmes such as the MCC one are to be welcomed, in the hope that they can address the balance. I agreed entirely. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 From a selfish point of view, if boys aren't coming into the art we're probably missing out on a lot of talented performers. (In the same way that mathematics has for centuries, for instance.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said: Going back on track to the original purpose of this thread - this is possibly controversial, but I hope will inspire more debate. It has become received wisdom "we must get more boys to do ballet". Why? Are any ballet companies world wide complaining at a lack of male dancers? Are any vocational schools in this country complaining about a lack of male candidates at their auditions? Yes there are fewer boys than girls in "local schools" but in what way does this matter? From what we've seen over the years, the majority of boys who train vocationally are given every encouragement, and the opportunity to develop as individual artists in a way that girls aren't. Someone said to me recently that they are beginning to think that girls in vocational training are considered a 10-a-penny commodity (a sort of 'plenty more where they came from' attitude) and are treated as potentially expendable, rather than nurtured through training setbacks. This is possibly a controversial topic also. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billyelliott Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 There is most definitely a shortage of boys at the local dance school. Without exception my sons costumes have been hired out the girls have had to dress up as boys to fill fill the part he used to play once he was too old to play it ! All the boys in the school are needed in every single festival group and still they're not enough boys to partner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said: From what we've seen over the years, the majority of boys who train vocationally are given every encouragement, and the opportunity to develop as individual artists in a way that girls aren't. Someone said to me recently that they are beginning to think that girls in vocational training are considered a 10-a-penny commodity (a sort of 'plenty more where they came from' attitude) and are treated as potentially expendable, rather than nurtured through training setbacks. This is possibly a controversial topic also. A whole other set of problems that clearly exist in some places. I suspect that being so rare, boys do get better treatment than girls, and maybe held to lower standards. All the more reason to encourage more in. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 41 minutes ago, Picturesinthefirelight said: On the contrary, I think it's more due to the pay rates & type of contracts pre school workers get. Largely because it's an almost exclusively female profession. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Or because it's often a part time, term time only job where charges to the consumer (parents) have to remain low. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pups_mum Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 7 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said: Going back on track to the original purpose of this thread - this is possibly controversial, but I hope will inspire more debate. It has become received wisdom "we must get more boys to do ballet". Why? Are any ballet companies world wide complaining at a lack of male dancers? Are any vocational schools in this country complaining about a lack of male candidates at their auditions? Yes there are fewer boys than girls in "local schools" but in what way does this matter? I guess if the purpose of grass roots dance is to provide future professional dancers then no, it doesn't matter particularly. There are already too many graduates for the number of jobs available, and vocational schools don't seem to have any problems filling their places. On that basis, we should probably be discouraging girls, rather than encouraging boys!That said, there must be boys out there who would make stupendous ballet dancers, were they ever to try, so it's likely that the overall standards would rise with a bigger talent pool to choose from. However, the benefits go way beyond that, because of course the value of local dance schools go way beyond the production of future professionals. More boys and men dancing in local schools and groups would open up wider opportunities for the types of productions that could be done at amateur level for instance, girls would have more opportunities to learn to dance with a partner and so on. If ballet were seen as less of a "girly" thing and had wider appeal, maybe we would see more support and investment across the board, and the struggles that many of us have had in getting our children's academic schools to take their dancing seriously might become less common. Anything that widens the appeal of and participation in an activity is likely to have those kinds of benefits I would think. Then there are the less tangible, broader benefits. Surely it's better to have a society with less gender stereotyping, and it's probably better to have a society where more people dance. The bottom line is that dancing is a healthy, life enhancing activity that currently around half the population is a great deal less likely to participate in than the other half. Changing that has to be good. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 9 hours ago, Picturesinthefirelight said: Or because it's often a part time, term time only job where charges to the consumer (parents) have to remain low. In terms of early years especially i'm unsure where you get the impression it's part time and/ or term time only, arguably demand increases outside term time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Baby and toddler groups and pre-school playgroups are open during term-time only; as are nurseries attached to schools. Private day nurseries do their own thing - some are open during school holidays, some aren't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 10 hours ago, Colman said: A whole other set of problems that clearly exist in some places. I suspect that being so rare, boys do get better treatment than girls, and maybe held to lower standards. All the more reason to encourage more in. any proof the quality line is lower ? ofr just the numbers game meaning if a male reaches the quality ine they are likely to get the whatever, where the number of females meeting the quality line exceeds the availability ... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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