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Just wondering how flexible does a 10 year old need to be?? what are RBS & others looking for.My DD who I thought was very flexible can do all splits etc was told at a Masters of Ballet course she was not flexible enough. Her usual teacher does not spend a lot of time on stretching. She has not done gymnastics should she have done!! Too late now. Are most children that are successful doing gym?? What sort of stretches should we do at home?? there seemed to be a few children with great back flexibility, how do you achieve that!!some looked super human!!!

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Try not to be concerned, at auditions they are looking for potential and the facility/physique to be able to achieve extra flexibility in the future with the right training. They do not expect everyone to be super-flexible aged 10, indeed being too hypermobile can be a disadvantage.

 

There are quite a few threads on here about flexibility and stretching, and I'm sure reading some of those will put your mind at rest. I'd say that no, not all successful students do gym, some will but definitely not all of them, and it isn't necessary really.

 

Oh, and whatever you do, don't get swayed by all the youtube/facebook clips you see with examples of extreme stretching, a lot of them are positively harmful.

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I definitely wouldn't be too concerned. My youngest DD auditioned for vocational school this year and all were concerned with her hypermobility. My eldest dd has just started lessons with a new ballet teacher who has said her back is too flexible ? we've definitely found being too flexible has caused more problems for us.

I do have to agree with you regarding the finished article though. Everyone has said schools are looking for potential  etc etc. The girls my DD has seen have been outstanding with everything.   The feedback for my DD has been amazing........just seems not amazing enough to secure funding. Seems to be a sense of dejavu for us, she was in final few for a couple of West end shows and in the end too young/ too small. Almost makes it but not quite to the end. Thankfully she's a resilient little thing and takes everything as a good experience.

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yes you watch Billy Elliot & feel inspired that the average person might make it with potential!! But then you get to these places & they are having private lessons from Principal soloists at well known ballet companies!! It seems so hard to compete!! Then the international students seem amazing!!! Sarah2203 your DD sounds amazing with regard to West End shows etc we have no singing talent!!

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It is, or so it seems still a hobby that requires a significant amount of money. My DD has as many lessons as I can afford but I know she's not getting the same level of training as some of the kids attending the auditions and it does make a massive difference. She absolutely loves her dance school but I know she needs more one on one lessons. It's harder too as she does love her singing so fitting in both hobbies is extremely difficult. 

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The thing about flexibility is that it's useless unless you have control and strength. And those are the tricky things at 10 years of age! Realistically, at that age, extensions at a maximum of hip height (or 90 degrees), properly turned out, with correct alignment, will look far better & be healthier for the growing body than the "six o'clock" penchée. And what will look beautiful is a growing sense of line - that elusive aesthetic we're all working towards. 

 

Slow and steady ...

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I'm extremely grateful my DD has teachers who think the same Kate_N. My DD has  quite a sickening amount of flexibility in her hips, but she doesn't yet have the strength to control it. Lots and lots of hours of training and it's gradually coming. She has lessons with a Pilates teacher who has lectured her repeatedly on importance of looking after her joints otherwise she'll end up with a nasty injury.

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10 hours ago, Dancer123 said:

.My DD who I thought was very flexible can do all splits etc was told at a Masters of Ballet course she was not flexible enough. 

That comment makes me so cross.  Very poor advice from a one off course, irresponsible in my view and not at all helpful. They have no deep knowledge of your child, have no real invested interest and if it was actually delivered in such a blunt way no interest in nurturing a young child. Stick with your full time teachers advice and support.

 

flexibility will increase with the correct training, and strength will mean that that flexibility becomes accessible.  10 is far too young to be giving absolutes.  You definitely shouldn't be taking on extreme stretching at home and extreme stretching as seen in these awful instagram posts is very damaging for a young developing body. The last thing you need is a spinal fracture or a labrum tear - very real possibilities. 

 

Obtaining a place at vocational school is tough but can be a bit of a poison chalice. Some children will actually do better with a good local teacher and go away to school a few years later and do just as well as those that have been away since 11. There are 12 ish places available at RBS, they can afford to be extremely picky, not all those chosen will even get through to upper school let alone go all the way through white lodge.  A couple of years ago only 3 of the original girls taken in at 11 went in to upper school.  Things change, bodies change, desires change, personalities change.  Don't risk your daughters health for the sake of a poorly thought out comment by a one off course provider. 

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Agree with Harwel's very sensible comments. i would be wary of taking these comments as gospel. Also extreme flexibility is not the be all and end all in dance. It is dance after all. A good base line of flexibility can always be worked on and improved with exercises and stretching performed in a safe manner and under experienced instruction. Extreme stretches done when muscles are not warmed up and held for longer than 30 seconds can cause real damage.

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Speaking from personal experience, the most helpful skill a young dancer can learn is body awareness and a high level of self care. A dancers body needs to be well looked after and this becomes even more true as more is asked of it. Especially when combined with growth spurts. My dd has  been very flexible since birth (emergency xray referral at age 6 months for abnormal degree of hip movement! ). However a sudden uneven growth spurt in one leg led to a routine stretch turning into a catastrophic ham string injury that stopped her dancing for several months. The agonised expression on her face as she was taken to A&E will stay in my memories for a very long time. The plus side was that we found a brilliant dance physio who, as well as putting her back together, really educated her on preventative maintenance, strengthening exercises and the value of pilates. She also knows now that if anything starts to hurt she must stop what she is doing and get medical advice. Please ignore silly throw away comments your childs long term health is far more important.

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@mnemo Even watching some of the adult returners makes that clear: a little too macho (seriously, the ballet crowd are worse than the karate crowd), a little too willing to ignore warning signs. I swear I overheard a younger returner basically complaining our teacher wasn't abusive enough the other day ("My teacher when I was 15 would have hoisted my leg up to my shoulder.")

 

Eventually you end up learning those lessons, but it's better to avoid doing it the hard way.

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4 hours ago, Harwel said:

Don't risk your daughters health for the sake of a poorly thought out comment by a one off course provider. 

 

I completely agree with this. At age 10 the body is SO vulnerable to damage, yet children and teenagers feel invincible. It is our job, as the parents, teachers and coaches ie the adults that look after them to remember that they are not invincible, they are not the finished article and nor should they be. This is something that untrained 'teachers' or coaches often forget and one of the reasons why comments like this should be completely ignored. Students can learn an awful lot from working with professional dancers, or recently retired dancers, however one must always remember that they do not have the same depth of knowledge in terms of child development (both physiologically and psychologically) as someone who has devoted their career to teaching.

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I totally agree with Harwel and the others that this was an unfortunate comment. If your dd can do all 3 splits at age 10 then she is doing very well. I would think there is more risk of over stretching in her case. 

Many do gym as well but it can lead to posture issues so it's not the be all and end all.....

Flexibility can be wirked on sensibly overy many years to improve safely. It's a marathon not a sprint.

 

The only other thing was could there be a confusion over a comment actually referring to turnout rather than flexibility?

 

Also many of the teachers at Masters of Ballet are Russian I believe and culturally they may speak more directly than we do......

Edited by sarahw
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It scares me that 'professionals' behave in this way. Our children's joints need to be protected and not pushed to the extreme. I've never danced but have underlying health conditions, I currently have a badly torn hip labrum and it is extremely painful.  I've had one failed surgery already. I would hate to imagine a child going through the pain and limitations I do. 

Edited by Sarah2203
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My DS just sits on the sofa watching tv in all kinds of contortions! In fact if he's sat on a chair in the usual way, it just looks wrong! ? Saying that he can't do splits just yet, close but not quite. He's 10 and did gymnastics from the age of 3-7 then started ballet. It has helped him I think. 10 is still so very young though from a muscle development perspective so I wouldn't worry too much. xx

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  • 4 weeks later...

The other thing to bear in mind when considering opinions on flexibility in situations like this, is that the teacher is making a judgement based on a snapshot so to speak. I know my DD's flexibility has waxed and waned considerably over the years. Certainly whenever she had a growth spurt she would become very inflexible, but with time and work it would always improve again. And even now, if she's ill for any reason she tends to stiffen up transiently. I would think that a teacher who sees a student regularly over a longer period of time would be better placed to give an opinion than someone who teaches them as a one off or for a few days. I hate to think what the opinion on my DD would have been if caught in one of her inflexible phases!

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48 minutes ago, Pups_mum said:

Certainly whenever she had a growth spurt she would become very inflexible, but with time and work it would always improve again. 

Yes, I believe the advice during & just after a growth spurt is NOT to do a lot of stretching. The bones have suddenly lengthened, and the muscles take longer to grow and catch up with the bones. It takes time for that to happen.

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Gosh! who knew flexibility was so controversial?  <grin>

 

I hope it's OK still to post? Because I was talking to a friend (a professional dancer) who said that he stopped doing hard stretching in class and after class unless it was the last class/rehearsal of the day. The physiology is thus (I hope if I'm wrong, DrDance can correct me):  the really hard stretching to develop increased flexibility works by actually doing minor, minor damage to tissue fibres (muscles especially) - they stretch to just a tiny bit beyond capacity, and heal looser than before.

 

In class, you're actually working on strength, and building strength in the muscles. So why would you weaken those muscles in the middle of strengthening them? that was my friend's revelation about that tradition of over-stretching between barre & centre. He does his stretching after rehearsals etc, when the body can then heal over night.

 

I think this is very interesting (and I hope my non-medico Dr explanation makes sense!).

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You are right Kate and dance science moves on all the time, catching up with what was known, although not understood long ago.  In 20th century we were always warned not to overstretch at the end of barre or we would lose our jump.  Then came the fashion for oversplits, and high extensions all the time, so too much stretching became the norm.  However, in my classes I use stretching as a "cool" down at the end.

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30 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

You are right Kate and dance science moves on all the time, catching up with what was known, although not understood long ago.  In 20th century we were always warned not to overstretch at the end of barre or we would lose our jump.  Then came the fashion for oversplits, and high extensions all the time, so too much stretching became the norm.  However, in my classes I use stretching as a "cool" down at the end.

 

I have never done ballet but have been involved in fitness and training with teens to seniors.  The start of classes was cardio and gentle stretching with any "serious" stretching done (obviously not too much with my over 70's) when well warmed up and followed with a cool down of long gentle stretches.  I have always been concerned about the pre-audition stretching that we see.  My grandmother started to teach me yoga when she was nearly 60 and she continued to dance until she was 90 with never an injury or joint pain, most likely due to the calm nature of the stretching she did.

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It is understood now that stretching reduces the explosive power output of a muscle so it is counterproductive to stretch before requiring muscles to produce power. 

 

As for the actual physiology of stretching to increase flexibility I would need to go and do some more reading on the topic! It is true that training strength pushes a muscle to capacity and then damage, and the damage repair is what causes the increase in strength so I'm not sure how this relates to flexibility....but I can get back to you!!

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On 25/05/2017 at 08:01, Harwel said:

That comment makes me so cross.  Very poor advice from a one off course, irresponsible in my view and not at all helpful. They have no deep knowledge of your child, have no real invested interest and if it was actually delivered in such a blunt way no interest in nurturing a young child. Stick with your full time teachers advice and support.

 

flexibility will increase with the correct training, and strength will mean that that flexibility becomes accessible.  10 is far too young to be giving absolutes.  You definitely shouldn't be taking on extreme stretching at home and extreme stretching as seen in these awful instagram posts is very damaging for a young developing body. The last thing you need is a spinal fracture or a labrum tear - very real possibilities. 

 

Obtaining a place at vocational school is tough but can be a bit of a poison chalice. Some children will actually do better with a good local teacher and go away to school a few years later and do just as well as those that have been away since 11. There are 12 ish places available at RBS, they can afford to be extremely picky, not all those chosen will even get through to upper school let alone go all the way through white lodge.  A couple of years ago only 3 of the original girls taken in at 11 went in to upper school.  Things change, bodies change, desires change, personalities change.  Don't risk your daughters health for the sake of a poorly thought out comment by a one off course provider. 

 

My Dd has done more than one Masters of Ballet course with this teacher and had it impressed upon her never to come in to the studio and stretch cold, but to warm up the body properly first and never to cause the body pain in stretching.

 

The Russian teacher also went to great lengths to explain that the turnout each child should be demonstrating should be from the correct use of the inner thigh and posteria rather than forcing from the feet and straining the knees.

 

i would imagine this comment was possibly misunderstood because of the slight language barrier.  This Russian teacher has an extremely good reputation and has her own London based dance school.  She's also had in the last year one pupil accepted into the Bolshoi School, two into White Lodge and two to Vaganova School.

 

Dd loves these courses.  She is Year 10 at vocational school and this is always her favourite course for Easter and Summer.  The facilities (and food!) are also amazing at Sadlers Wells!

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my original question was just about improving flexibility. Nothing to do with the course my DD loved it & the teachers. Just made me realise we were perhaps not that flexible as we don't do gymnastics & was wondering whether we should. It DD usual classes they don't spend vast periods of time on stretches.& whether we should be doing a series of daily stretches at home

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47 minutes ago, Dancer123 said:

my original question was just about improving flexibility. Nothing to do with the course my DD loved it & the teachers. Just made me realise we were perhaps not that flexible as we don't do gymnastics & was wondering whether we should. It DD usual classes they don't spend vast periods of time on stretches.& whether we should be doing a series of daily stretches at home

 

My DD had never done stretching as part of her ballet nor has she done gymnastics.  She recently added some classes that involve a significant amount of stretching and has made an improvement in flexibility but whether or not it has improved her ballet I can't tell - sorry still too much of a Newdancermum!  I agree with sarahw that if she can do all three splits at age 10 flexibility may not be a problem but there is nothing wrong with doing some daily stretches as long as she is careful.

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3 hours ago, Dancer123 said:

my original question was just about improving flexibility. Nothing to do with the course my DD loved it & the teachers. Just made me realise we were perhaps not that flexible as we don't do gymnastics & was wondering whether we should. It DD usual classes they don't spend vast periods of time on stretches.& whether we should be doing a series of daily stretches at home

My dd has never done gymnastics either - although some gymnastics teachers like their pupils to do some ballet, the same isn't true of many ballet teachers, apparently the technique isn't quite the same.

 

Your dd's ballet teacher could probably be the best person to advise on whether doing stretching exercises at home would be beneficial or not.

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There are actually quite significant differences between ballet and gymnastics training and technique - I'm sure we could all list several of them! The one I notice in gymnastics is the style of the hyperextended back and thus a displaced alignment of the pelvis and turn out. 

 

I've  heard ballet teachers say that after the age of around 10 or 11 children can't do both gymnastics and ballet, if they want to get serious with ballet, because technique-wise they work very differently. 

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1 hour ago, Kate_N said:

There are actually quite significant differences between ballet and gymnastics training and technique - I'm sure we could all list several of them! The one I notice in gymnastics is the style of the hyperextended back and thus a displaced alignment of the pelvis and turn out. 

 

I've  heard ballet teachers say that after the age of around 10 or 11 children can't do both gymnastics and ballet, if they want to get serious with ballet, because technique-wise they work very differently. 

Yes, not to mention the time commitment involved! My dd was a competitive artistic gymnast until the age of 11, 20 plus hours a week commitment! 

 

Dd didn't do much flexibility work in gymnastics, though naturally flexible children would tend to be good at it.  They typically only stretched 5 minutes after a training session to cool down.  A lot more empathsis was placed on shoulder flexibility in bridges etc than leg flexibilty anyway as it is very much an upper body sport, and this protects the lower back being over worked in walkovers etc.  It always amazed me how some of the least flexible stronger gymnasts who were miles of all their splits had the best splits in leaps! How does that work?!?

 

So, I don't really think it would benefit flexibility at all if anything it could hinder it especally if you were the type of person who is naturally tight, as a lot of strengthening work is done rather than lengthening the muscles, you could get less flexible! Plus, the posture and they don't turn out like Kate N said is really different, and it would be undoing a lot of work a ballet teacher was trying to achieve! 

 

Unless you are talking about rhythmic gymnastics! That's a totally different story.  That may help flexibility a lot as they spend hours just stretching and it is all about flexibility, but it's not that common a sport at all in this country really so you may struggle to find a club depending on where you live.  I think this may help with ballet as it more similar and its more like a type of dance.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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