Nicola H Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 Just now, taxi4ballet said: There really isn't any need to be so sarcastic. The point is that most people are unlikely to have actually had a conversation with someone who is trans about their preferred terminology (I've read quite a few threads on MN about this issue and I'm aware that it is huge) and it seems that it doesn't matter how much we try, some people will always end up taking offence where none was intended. mumsnet ? that place is a nest of vipers when it comes to gender and sexuality topics ... i think the important things people need to remember in such things are 1. you use someone's name and you use it properly no quote marks, 'so-called' - unless it is clear they are portraying a character ( e.g. Drag is performance ) 2. be careful of 'deadnaming ' (binary ) transpeople - the 'deadname' is the pre transition name 3. gendered assumptions are hurtful - even for cisgender people - why shouldn;t people learn things which are historically or classically the preserve of the other gender? - see comments in the tap thread along the lines of ' it doesn;t matter if boys do tap as they don;t need the ankles to do pointe ' ... ( even disregarding my gender identity, this would still be something i would raise having worked as a man in Nursing ) 4. various words used to describe people are slurs , people seem to have no issue getting this with regard to race and religion and to some extent in the use of slur words against ciswomen 5. cisgender is not an insult it;s a statement of fact, where cis or trans is directly relevant to an issue. 6 . sex ( the bits you were born with) , gender identity ( how you feel and identity) and sexuality are seperate and you can;t make assumptions on the others based on one thing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 3 hours ago, mph said: mumsnet ? that place is a nest of vipers when it comes to gender and sexuality topics ... i think the important things people need to remember in such things are 1. you use someone's name and you use it properly no quote marks, 'so-called' - unless it is clear they are portraying a character ( e.g. Drag is performance ) 2. be careful of 'deadnaming ' (binary ) transpeople - the 'deadname' is the pre transition name 3. gendered assumptions are hurtful - even for cisgender people - why shouldn;t people learn things which are historically or classically the preserve of the other gender? - see comments in the tap thread along the lines of ' it doesn;t matter if boys do tap as they don;t need the ankles to do pointe ' ... ( even disregarding my gender identity, this would still be something i would raise having worked as a man in Nursing ) 4. various words used to describe people are slurs , people seem to have no issue getting this with regard to race and religion and to some extent in the use of slur words against ciswomen 5. cisgender is not an insult it;s a statement of fact, where cis or trans is directly relevant to an issue. 6 . sex ( the bits you were born with) , gender identity ( how you feel and identity) and sexuality are seperate and you can;t make assumptions on the others based on one thing If you had read this thread properly, you will notice that I have been completely supportive of Sophie_Rebecca and also the decision by the RAD. By the way, since you mention it, I don't personally like the term cis and do consider it to be an insult. But I don't suppose my views count do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said: If you had read this thread properly, you will notice that I have been completely supportive of Sophie_Rebecca and also the decision by the RAD. By the way, since you mention it, I don't personally like the term cis and do consider it to be an insult. But I don't suppose my views count do they? What makes you think the 6 points in question were directed personally towards you , rather than being sparked by a series of comments made. What term would you prefer instead of cisgender ? especially one that does not imply that cisgender is somehow better / more natural / more normal than transgender ? Systemic discrimination is and remains a significant problem when people refuse to accept underlying science ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 mph - I am the sort of person who is happy for everyone to live their lives however they wish, as long as it does not have a negative effect on mine - and as long as they afford me the same courtesy. It can consequently become rather frustrating to be trying to do the right thing, and be met with antagonism and confrontation. As for 'cis'... if trans people use it in general conversation when specifically referring to everybody who isn't trans, fine. Otherwise some might say there's not all that much need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 41 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said: <snip> As for 'cis'... if trans people use it in general conversation when specifically referring to everybody who isn't trans, fine. Otherwise some might say there's not all that much need for it. cis and trans only really gets used when the issue is a stake otherwise it;s women / ladies/ girls and men / gnetlemen/ boys based on how people identify , although that can be argued to exclude none binary and agender / asexual identities ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) On 22/04/2017 at 12:44, mph said: 3. gendered assumptions are hurtful - even for cisgender people - why shouldn;t people learn things which are historically or classically the preserve of the other gender? - see comments in the tap thread along the lines of ' it doesn;t matter if boys do tap as they don;t need the ankles to do pointe ' ... ( even disregarding my gender identity, this would still be something i would raise having worked as a man in Nursing ) 4. various words used to describe people are slurs , people seem to have no issue getting this with regard to race and religion and to some extent in the use of slur words against ciswomen 5. cisgender is not an insult it;s a statement of fact, where cis or trans is directly relevant to an issue. 6 . sex ( the bits you were born with) , gender identity ( how you feel and identity) and sexuality are seperate and you can;t make assumptions on the others based on one thing I've been away & off-line, and am just catching up with this thread, but I have to say that I find "Cis" particularly as applied to women, just as offensive as "misgendering" a trans-person. And I also have a real problem with the appellation of Mumsnet - a major site for the community of women - being dismissed as a "nest of vipers" - that does tend to tip over from sexism to real misogyny (is it really SO threatening that around 10,000 women discuss things frankly on the internet?). Sex is biological, and cannot be changed. Gender is a set of socially constructed expectations, assumptions, and behaviours. We confuse sex and gender at our peril. Most feminists - and I am one (I teach & research women's studies at a research-intensive university amongst other things) - want to get rid of gender, and the boxes that gender ideology tries put people into. The ideologies of gender are particularly harmful to women (sexual violence, murder etc etc etc), but they're also very harmful to men. Thus my comments earlier about gender stereotypes and ballet: the very problematic statement that IF someone wants to be a "ballerina" they must be female. I think it would be more truly and fundamentally pioneering for a young man or boy to broaden the notion of what it is to be a man or boy, rather than succumb to harmful & limiting gender stereotypes. After all, it's only what women have had to do over the last several hundred years or so - suffering all sorts of hostility & violence in the process ... I have worked closely with a couple of transexual people - I've seen the level of bodily dysphoria that the condition involves - it's akin to the complete body dysphoria of the anorexic, for example. I think the current focus on the outward and stereotypical signs of gender (Oh she likes boy's games, she's really trans") is deeply harmful to both boys, girls, and those who are dysphoric. It is unfortunate that the whole thing has become such a fashion (for want of a better word) in the same way that anorexia is a kind of fashion. So this is just to explain my position & request that we don't use the term "cis-woman" - it's as offensive to women as misgendering a transwoman. And now back to ballet - and maybe we should celebrate the dancers & choreographers - many of them women - who have tried to break down the limits of gender as a socially-constructed system - in dance: I offer us Martha Graham and Pina Bausch to start with,. Edited April 24, 2017 by Kate_N 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theother51 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 How eloquently put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Sorry although I've seen programmes about this and always been moved by them I'm just not familiar with all the language involved so what is a cis woman ....is that a female who is happy to stay female or a man who wishes to become a woman( as opposed to dressing up in woman's clothes occasionally but doesn't want to physically change sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 I've been away & off-line, and am just catching up with this thread, but I have to say that I find "Cis" particularly as applied to women, just as offensive as "misgendering" a trans-person. And I also have a real problem with the appellation of Mumsnet - a major site for the community of women - being dismissed as a "nest of vipers" - that does tend to tip over from sexism to real misogyny (is it really SO threatening that around 10,000 women discuss things frankly on the internet?). The story I've heard - and it's that infamous - is that many discussion about transgender women on Mumsnet will immediately attract a significant amount of, uh, less than tolerant comment. Maybe you don't know that or maybe you know it to be false? As for "cisgender" ("denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex") being an insult, I really can't work that one out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 25 minutes ago, Colman said: The story I've heard - and it's that infamous - is that many discussion about transgender women on Mumsnet will immediately attract a significant amount of, uh, less than tolerant comment. Maybe you don't know that or maybe you know it to be false? As for "cisgender" ("denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex") being an insult, I really can't work that one out. Exactly , it;s a nest of vipers with regard to gender identtiy related topics , and it's said that there is a lot of support for those espousing the 2nd wave rad fem viewpoint of trans as expressed by G. Greer and Jenni Murray among others ... The whole 'cis is an insult' is a sign of cisnormativity being deeply put into the culture of the west by the Church . along with the view that people are never too young to be cisgender and straight ... You'll also find the 'meninists' claiming that the descrptions of behaviours typically associated with cisgender heterosexual males are some kind of insult Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, LinMM said: Sorry although I've seen programmes about this and always been moved by them I'm just not familiar with all the language involved so what is a cis woman ....is that a female who is happy to stay female or a man who wishes to become a woman( as opposed to dressing up in woman's clothes occasionally but doesn't want to physically change sex. Cisgender people are people whose gender identity matches their physical sexual bits ... This is clinical fact , not a political statement as the Women's Studies types try to imply it is ; 2nd wave feminism is often trans exclusionary and despite the statements made by many feminists there are lots of people while post 2nd wave aren;t really on with the intersectional approach to such things. Edited April 24, 2017 by mph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 I also think that maybe further discussion on gender identity politics ought to move to a new thread in 'Not Dance' ... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theother51 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) I have never seen intolerance on any of the threads. I have seen support for transgender people or parents of those transitioning. I have also seen concern that young people are being pressured into making potentially irreversible decisions on the basis of not liking to do traditionally boyish/girlish things rather than a genuine feeling of being born as the wrong sex. One particularly concerning thread was from the mother of a 4 year old child born a boy. She admitted she'd always wanted a girl & dressed the child in girls clothes & only gave girls toys. Understandably the child began to identify as a girl. She wanted advice on how to get the primary school to accept the child was transgender & she talked about transitioning around the age of 10. I actually feel quite offended that i that I am described as part of a nest of vipers. Edited April 24, 2017 by theother51 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 This has rather wandered off topic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Thankyou for clarifying that mph just trying to get my head around all the official terms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 It appears that Mumsnet might not be the only forum where the occasional person will argue the toss till the cows come home, just for the sake of it. Hey ho 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, LinMM said: Thankyou for clarifying that mph just trying to get my head around all the official terms Sorry Lin, but "cis" is not an official term. It's emerged (transposed from chemistry studies & according to my science colleagues at work, misapplied) from activism around transgender politics. It suggests that biological or born women are compliant in their gender roles; it also suggests that sex is "assigned" at birth. It's not - sex is a matter of biology, genes, chromosomes, etc. You can't really "assign" that, it just is. "Gender identity" is an inaccurate term as well - it confuses socially constructed & imposed gender stereotyped roles with identity. So - according to the gender roles of the 60s & 70s when I was at school, I should have been good at cooking & sewing, and not maths, science, & history. According to those gender roles, I should have married & had children, instead of becoming a senior person in my field. According to these ideas of gender identity, women shouldn't argue back (I think it's interesting how much mansplaining is going on in this thread); they should be being pleasant, nurturing, helping others. And so on ... Frankly "gender" is oppressive rubbish. And in dance - to wrench us back on topic - some of the real pioneers have been those women who have challenged the limitations imposed on women in the dance world, as well as beyond. So let's celebrate Isadora Duncan, who wrote about "The Artist of the Future" Quote The dancer of the future will be one whose body and soul have grown so harmoniously together that the natural language of the soul will have become the movement of the body. The dancer will not belong to a nation but to all humanity. She will dance not in the form of a nymph, nor fairy, nor coquette but in the form of a woman in its greatest and purest expression. She will realize the mission of woman’s body and the holiness of all its parts. She will dance the changing life of nature, showing how each part is transformed into one another. From all parts of her body shall shine radiant intelligence, bringing to the world the message of the thoughts and aspirations of thousands of women. She shall dance the freedom of women. or Bronislav Nijinska, the "forgotten" choreographer of Ballets Russe. And so on ... Edited to add: I suppose my overall point is that the terminology and ideas around 'cis' and 'trans' are in debate at the moment. While this thread & this message board are probably not the place to go into detail about the debates, they are quite important, as some of the more radical activists are proposing changes to our laws which impinge directly on hard won women's rights. In this broader context, sitting an exam as a transgender person is not really the thing that is being debated - it's fine, as is the politeness of calling people by their preferred terms and pronouns. So to keep labelling me as 'cis' is as offensive as labelling Sophie "he." Edited April 25, 2017 by Kate_N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted April 25, 2017 Author Share Posted April 25, 2017 It appears the true, 2nd wave, colours of the Academic are coming out. As well as ignoring the suggestion to start another thread. As for 'mansplaining ' that'a a typical 2nd wave and if directed at Sophie or Me and also in this case Trans Exclusionary piece of microaggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Can we please stop this now and get back on topic. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) For the love of God! Why can't people just get on and go about their lives, living it the best way they can. Why so much antagonism? This is a ballet forum please stick to ballet and campaign elsewhere!! Sorry Jan posting with you! Edited April 25, 2017 by Harwel 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshirePudding Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Whilst I agree that the debate is no longer on the original topic, I for one have found the robustly held, and well argued viewpoints from all on here who are far better informed than me, very enlightening and informative. It is difficult to convey nuance and tone online and a passionately held opposing view does not necessarily mean antagonism is intended by anyone. I know it is the right thing to pull the topic back on course, but one of the delights of a diverse community is the knowledge that can be gained during a diversion, so from me, a thank you to those who have contributed. I for one am now much more aware of the issue and therefore better educated and better able to treat everybody as they would wish to be treated. As an adult learner of dance myself I applaud anyone who puts themselves in for examinations or commits themselves to education. Bravo Dormouse, Sophie, and everyone else who is continuing with lifelong learning in whatever form. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theother51 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 I had been recommended this website by someone on mumsnet as a good place to exchange information, ideas and the ups and downs of being a dance parent. Unfortunately I see that it has been hi-jacked by those who merely wish to antagonise. As you can see from my username which references one of the most diverse shows around at the moment, accepting of all races, sexual orientations and gender I am a believer in tolerance and acceptance but I am not prepared to accept the erosion of my rights and feelings and that of my children. Unlike Kate I have never thought of myself as a feminist, but I have always been a supported of equality and that includes in the dance and sporting worlds. However I wholeheartedly support Kate and other women like her who do not wish to be called by what they see as an offensive term. This forum is not for me, it is a shame as it came highly recommended. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 It's just this bit of just this thread. There's loads of other useful information and yes, debate! So please don't leave this site just because of a few heated discussions. They're part and parcel of being human. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Wait, I thought this topic was closed? Does this mean people get to abuse those who obey the closure without fear of contradiction? Could I ask the moderators - and I would have hated to impose except one liked the comment above - to move the "offending" section of the thread into a separate one and lock it please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 I don't want to get involved in the politics of this transgender issue particularly ....especially on a thread about passing ballet exams at an older age etc...but to be fair I believe one of the posters involved in this discussion did suggest that the off topic bit get moved to another thread....obviously on the Not Dance thread!! So I don't see why it should be locked ....just as long as not on a thread about ballet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 I'm not sure there's been any abuse? We've all managed to put different points of view, and outline disagreements without abuse, as far as i can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 No moderator has suggested this thread be locked. I note some posters feel aggrieved at language used and I'd remind posters that they should report anything they think is a breach of our AUP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theother51 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 I have just discovered an Ignore User option. This may be a solution. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Jan McNulty asked the discussion get back on topic. This wasn't honoured. I suggested it be moved and locked as a result. I'm finished here now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 These posts have been moved to a separate thread because they had taken the topic in which they were originally posted totally off topic. While there have been many educational comments made the tone of some of the comments comes over as quite aggressive. This new topic is, therefore, locked. Please remember the AUP, which states: " Contributors must be respectful to others. Vulgar, abusive, racist, and sexist language will not be tolerated. Any posts determined by a moderator to be either offensive or potentially libellous or unlawful or to be against the spirit of this acceptable use policy will be removed. The relevant poster’s account may be suspended or banned. If a member chooses to make highly critical comments this must be done in their own full name and not behind an anonymous user name and email address. Forum rules prohibit members from acting disingenuously, including by personation or wilfully misrepresenting themselves. Members who do this face suspension from the forum." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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