Brexit and ballet/dance companies

[Colman]

  Where Ireland is concerned, nothing will change

 

 

I'm glad you're in charge of Brexit then rather than the people who appear to be - who have refused to make any guarantees on even that front and frankly don't seem to have given any consideration to it. But this is becoming politics. (And who knows what will happen if there are even more radical reshapings like some sort of NI exit from UK and Scottish independence?)

Edited March 15, 2017 by Colman

[Lindsay]

Even German ballet companies (like all German arts organisations) although still in an enviable funding position compared to most other European countries, and certainly in comparison with the US, are under increasing budgetary pressures Angela.  If a dancer is an exceptional star then of course any company would spend the time and money to jump through those extra hoops to get them a visa or work permit.  But if it comes down to two or three excellent but not world-leading dancers for a corps place, I can see how holding a EU passport might sway the decision in favour of one of them.  

 

Every jurisdiction has complex rules applicable to visas for 'elite' artists and I think it is only going to get more complicated going forward.  Brexit will move British dancers from the 'easy' into the 'difficult' category as regards employability with European companies.

[penelopesimpson]

Yes!

 

90% of all sprouts eaten in the UK are grown within 20 miles of where I live, so there won't be an issue - unless the farmers can't employ anyone to pick them of course...

Phew!  Relief all round!

[MAB]

Phew!  Relief all round!

 

I want to know if Brexit will mean a return to pounds and ounces, feet and inches, Fahrenheit, and light bulbs that neither buzz or leave you in perpetual gloom. 

[Colman]

I want to know if Brexit will mean a return to pounds and ounces, feet and inches, Fahrenheit, and light bulbs that neither buzz or leave you in perpetual gloom. 

 

 

I certainly hope not since, being under 50, I have no idea how any of those work and no interest in paying triple the cost for lighting.

[Harwel]

Even German ballet companies (like all German arts organisations) although still in an enviable funding position compared to most other European countries, and certainly in comparison with the US, are under increasing budgetary pressures Angela. If a dancer is an exceptional star then of course any company would spend the time and money to jump through those extra hoops to get them a visa or work permit. But if it comes down to two or three excellent but not world-leading dancers for a corps place, I can see how holding a EU passport might sway the decision in favour of one of them.

 

Every jurisdiction has complex rules applicable to visas for 'elite' artists and I think it is only going to get more complicated going forward. Brexit will move British dancers from the 'easy' into the 'difficult' category as regards employability with European companies.

Absolutely! I am talking about the many talented, hard working dancers who are sitting in the lower ranks of companies. Also the newly graduated who have yet to develop their artistry. We all know (or we at least should know, as ballet fans) that many talented dancers audition for places, far more than places available and companies can fill their slots many times over with the right Calibre of dancer, final decisions come down to minutiae sometimes and I am surprised if anyone thinks that the change in EU status will make no difference. Over time it will hopefully settle down but initially (first few years) when no one knows what brexit looks like I can see it having serious consequences for our dancers abroad. I know of quite a few who actually are worried about their futures.

[Vonrothbart]

What effect did it have before the UK joined the EEC? 

[ninamargaret]

Suppose pre EEC it was all visas, work permits, and distrust of any'foreigner' who wanted to come and work here. I believe musicians are also greatly concerned, but as we all know scant concern is shown to those working in the arts in this country so I expect we'll just return to the bad old days.

Edited March 16, 2017 by ninamargaret

[MAB]

Pre EU, visas were only required to and from Warsaw pact countries you absolutely didn't require visas for western Europe, the only difference was stamped passports. 

 

As for "distrust of foreigners", what a dreadful slur on British people, my parents came to this country from opposite ends of Europe immediately after the second world war, I imagine they would have moved on if this country had been as bad as you portray it.  There was a vibrant international ballet/music scene in the UK in the sixties and early seventies. 

 

Exactly what were the "bad old days'?  Do you mean the days of Callas, Klemperer, Von Karajan, Nureyev et al?

[aileen]

Up until the late sixties there were few controls on immigration into the UK. There was a labour shortage and people were emigrating from Britain to places such as Canada and Australia. Yes, there was racism towards Black and Asian people but there wasn't the same discussion about absolute numbers of immigrants by the government and in the press. As the populations of Britain, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand have grown they have all introduced strict immigration controls.

[Angela]

Even German ballet companies (like all German arts organisations) although still in an enviable funding position compared to most other European countries, and certainly in comparison with the US, are under increasing budgetary pressures Angela.  If a dancer is an exceptional star then of course any company would spend the time and money to jump through those extra hoops to get them a visa or work permit.  But if it comes down to two or three excellent but not world-leading dancers for a corps place, I can see how holding a EU passport might sway the decision in favour of one of them.  

 

Every jurisdiction has complex rules applicable to visas for 'elite' artists and I think it is only going to get more complicated going forward.  Brexit will move British dancers from the 'easy' into the 'difficult' category as regards employability with European companies.

 

I asked the company manager of a big German ballet company, and he says that there is no difference whatsoever between EU dancers and non-EU dancers in terms of work permission and payment for his company. The only thing his ballet director looks at are "feet" There may be a small disadvantage for non-EU dancers if they hire on very short notice, because it takes six to eight weeks to get an appointment at the foreigner's registration office, but otherwise, at the normal auditions, they hire the very dancers his director choses - EU, non-EU, non-European. I hope this helps to dissipate your doubts about British dancers not being hired any more. It may be different in other countries though.

[penelopesimpson]

I want to know if Brexit will mean a return to pounds and ounces, feet and inches, Fahrenheit, and light bulbs that neither buzz or leave you in perpetual gloom. 

Yes, it would be nice to be able to see again, wouldn't it????

[trog]

I want to know if Brexit will mean a return to pounds and ounces, feet and inches, Fahrenheit, and light bulbs that neither buzz or leave you in perpetual gloom. 

What about proper LSD rather than this funny decimalised currency?

 

I solved the light bulb problem. I bought 200 100w just before they banned them. Should see me through my lifetime. (I'm a big fan of the bare bulb hanging from the ceiling - can't abide standand lamps)

[ninamargaret]

Pre EU, visas were only required to and from Warsaw pact countries you absolutely didn't require visas for western Europe, the only difference was stamped passports. 

 

As for "distrust of foreigners", what a dreadful slur on British people, my parents came to this country from opposite ends of Europe immediately after the second world war, I imagine they would have moved on if this country had been as bad as you portray it.  There was a vibrant international ballet/music scene in the UK in the sixties and early seventies. 

 

Exactly what were the "bad old days'?  Do you mean the days of Callas, Klemperer, Von Karajan, Nureyev et al?

[ninamargaret]

My reference to the bad old days was purely referring to the beaurocracy that was part of our lives, necessitated by complex customs arrangements, Byzantine visa problems for both incoming and outgoing visitors - speak from bitter experience in both cases. Not intended in any way to be a slur on the artists themselves.

[MAB]

Not sure beaurocracy is totally a thing of the past, I know someone who now lives permanently in Corralejo, getting Spanish residency wasn't exactly a breeze and lawyers and interpreters cost money.

[Scheherezade]

I want to know if Brexit will mean a return to pounds and ounces, feet and inches, Fahrenheit, and light bulbs that neither buzz or leave you in perpetual gloom. 

Not to mention the return of those wonderfully intimate ROH seats by the side of the stage. I was informed that their removal was due to EU regulations about sound. It would be lovely to be able to sit there again (particularly for opera) for performances other than the annual summer visits of the Russian companies.

[alison]

Sorry, but there's no way the hearing of any more orchestra members should be put at risk, EU or no EU.

[capybara]

Not to mention the return of those wonderfully intimate ROH seats by the side of the stage. I was informed that their removal was due to EU regulations about sound. It would be lovely to be able to sit there again (particularly for opera) for performances other than the annual summer visits of the Russian companies.

 

I think that the removal of the Stalls Circle Sides seats near the stage was negotiated for the ROH Orchestra because of issues with the effect of noise on the instrumentalists' hearing.

[betterankles]

Ehhh? The audience sitting in Stalls Circle Sides seats near the stage made so much noise that it was a danger to the players hearing??? I don't get it...

[MAB]

Ehhh? The audience sitting in Stalls Circle Sides seats near the stage made so much noise that it was a danger to the players hearing??? I don't get it...

 

Neither do I.

 

ROH isn't the only international house with side seating above the pit, I'll be looking out in future to see if other large blocks of seating have been decommissioned elsewhere.  Never realized musicians are such a precious bunch.

[Scheherezade]

And I've only seen the orchestra spread into that area on a couple of occasions so I really don't see how removing members of the audience can reduce the decibel levels affecting their hearing.

[capybara]

The orchestra needed more space to protect their hearing from the sound of the instruments themselves. Some of them are still wearing monitors in order to assess the levels. Some wear headphones or ear plugs when playing. Damage to the hearing of orchestral players is a real issue.

[FLOSS]

.There is research which shows that orchestral musicians are four times  more likely to suffer tinnitus and hearing loss as a result of their work than people employed in less noisy environments.Not all of the hearing loss is temporary. In 2016 there was a news story that a violist in the ROH orchestra suffering from permanent hearing loss intended to sue his employer . I don't know how far that has got and we may never know as it sounds like the sort of case that gets settled out of court. 

 

The musicians are quite tightly packed in the orchestra pit and how much noise an individual musician is exposed to depends on the music being played and the player's position in the pit.First violins get off quite lightly other members of the string section fare less well. Someone sitting directly in front of the piccolo for example is unlikely to get off that lightly. Playing Hayden does not generate as many decibels as performing late nineteenth century scores do. The pit's physical characteristics affect the noise levels which the player's experience in performance, if for example the stage overhangs the pit that will trap the sound and make matters worse. It is my understanding that there was an attempt being made to give the players more space as it was thought that if they were packed less tightly that might ameliorate the situation.I can't say that I recall having seen the areas on either side of the pit occupied by orchestral musicians during ballet performances but I have not looked for them. They are certainly used by the orchestra in operas by Strauss and Wagner which are scored for extremely large orchestras.

 

An employer is required to provide a safe system of work so I imagine that those two areas are being left unoccupied in an attempt to establish that the ROH is doing its best to provide such a system and has been doing so since it first became aware of the problems caused by excessive noise in the orchestra pit. I don't suppose that the powers that be at Covent Garden are that happy about the loss of revenue caused by the removal of the seating but I don't think that there is any other option for them at present.

 

There are regulations about noise levels at work. I have no doubt that there are some who are tempted to suggest that there is too much regulation of the workplace and working conditions and that "health and safety has got out of hand" since we have been in the EU. There are certainly newspapers which would have us believe that but strangely those newspapers rarely publish stories about injury and death at work because of blatant disregard for workers' safety. Hearing loss among orchestral musicians is a very serious problem and if removing several rows of seating means that it reduces the damage done to them then the loss of the seating is a small price for the management and the audience to pay for an improvement in the musicians' working conditions. .

Edited March 19, 2017 by FLOSS

[Lindsay]

I know several people who play/dep at the ROH and all of the above is true. At the time of the last closure around the millennium the decision was taken not to extend the pit and it is now one of the smallest in Europe relative to the size of orchestra regularly used. Removing the side seats releases some the 'trapped' sound, and though I was a frequent purchaser of those seats I would rather give them up and have musicians avoid permanent hearing damage.

[bangorballetboy]

Neither do I.

 

ROH isn't the only international house with side seating above the pit, I'll be looking out in future to see if other large blocks of seating have been decommissioned elsewhere.  Never realized musicians are such a precious bunch.

I think it's disgusting that you don't think it's appropriate for professional musicians to be accorded a working environment that protects their health and well-being. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

[bangorballetboy]

I know several people who play/dep at the ROH and all of the above is true. At the time of the last closure around the millennium the decision was taken not to extend the pit and it is now one of the smallest in Europe relative to the size of orchestra regularly used. Removing the side seats releases some the 'trapped' sound, and though I was a frequent purchaser of those seats I would rather give them up and have musicians avoid permanent hearing damage.

The floor under the side seats can be opened so as to allow sound to dissipate (and it's usually the horns and brass that are under or nearest to that area). This can sometimes lead to the odd effect for some in the audience that the brass and horns are playing in the stalls circle, but that's a tiny price to pay to ensure the musicians, who give us such pleasure, are protected.

[Johnpw]

Initially I didn't quite understand how removing these seats, and audience members, would help with the noise problem for orchestral musicians. I have seen harpists in the spaces but my perception is that they are largely left unoccupied. Lindsay's comment about "trapped sound" and her latest comments have helped my understanding: thank you.

 

If I've identified the seats correctly, I've only sat there once. For a performance of The Flames of Paris during last year's Bolshoi tour. Obviously a very restricted view. But what a view! It was almost like being onstage or in the wings as in those "behind the scenes" documentaries.

 

I'm sure management and unions took advice and, as others have said, the health and well-being of the players ought to be the overriding consideration.

[MAB]

I think it's disgusting that you don't think it's appropriate for professional musicians to be accorded a working environment that protects their health and well-being. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

 

I was responding to a post suggesting noise from the audience was the cause of the seats being removed, before the actual issue was explained, it is you who should be ashamed at your inability to read a thread properly.  Particularly disgusting for a moderator.

Edited March 19, 2017 by MAB

[Bluebird]

Initially I didn't quite understand how removing these seats, and audience members, would help with the noise problem for orchestral musicians. I have seen harpists in the spaces but my perception is that they are largely left unoccupied.

 

On several occasions I  have sat in the block next to the seats which have been removed.  I have sat there for opera and also for Romeo and Juliet and Sleeping Beauty. The space has, on each of these occasions, been occupied by musicians.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Bluebird

[Colman]

This wasn't how I expected this thread to descend into acrimony.

 

(But, to help guide it back onto its original path to doom, notice how the evil EU gets the blame at the beginning for something that turns out to be perfectly sensible and not its fault.)

[bangorballetboy]

I was responding to a post suggesting noise from the audience was the cause of the seats being removed, before the actual issue was explained, it is you who should be ashamed at your inability to read a thread properly. Particularly disgusting for a moderator.

Then you should have been more clear as that's not how it reads. In any event and no matter to what you were responding, your final sentence was, and still is, a revolting statement.

[MAB]

Then you should have been more clear as that's not how it reads. In any event and no matter to what you were responding, your final sentence was, and still is, a revolting statement.

 

I posted before FLOSS's very detailed explanation as to why the seats had been removed and was therefore unaware of the complex reasoning behind the decision.  I stated truthfully that continental houses of the same horseshoe configuration don't leave empty blocks close to the stage.

 

Perhaps you got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning, but calling a poster "disgusting" is beyond the pale in my book and I think you should apologize.