Brexit and ballet/dance companies

[MAX]

What impact will the brexit have on ballet/dance companies ?  

[Pas de Quatre]

Until the negotiations have finished I think it is impossible to predict.  Even then the law of unintended consequences may come into play!

[Amelia]

Sadly, the politics do affect the ballet scene. Just by accident I met yesterday at the Coliseum someone from the former Swansea Ballet Russe. Do you remember there was such company about 6 years ago? Even Elena Glurdjudze danced with them as a guest. From that man I learned that they had to close the company because they could not get work permits for Russian dancers anymore.

[alison]

Yes, but that was several years ago: it doesn't directly have anything to do with the Brexit vote.

 

MAX, we've discussed this before: a search on "Brexit" will surely bring up some results.

[penelopesimpson]

Anyone know the impact of Brexit on......the price of sprouts?????!!!!!!

[FLOSS]

Sorry but I don't think that this is a topic to joke about or to take lightly. It is far too serious for the individuals likely to be caught up in the process and with the blustering idiots who are in charge of Brexit I don't think that it is going to be that good for anyone except the select few. There is far too much defiance, posturing, bluster and noise for home consumption by those who have the job of securing our exit from the EU to suggest that anyone has thought that seriously about the process , the immediate consequences of triggering Article 50, let alone those five or more years down the line. As a result I think that the whole thing is going to be a shambles.

 

I hope that I am wrong but my feeling is that it won't be of benefit to anyone much.The dance sector is not one that is going to loom large when it comes to future arrangements for the movement of workers between the UK and the EU  in either direction.Whatever rules are put in place they won't affect the exceptional performer, such rules never do, but they are likely to affect the majority of those working in the sector. With the amount of ill will and unpleasantness that has been generated so far in some quarters in this country and the likelihood of a lot more to come if the members of the EU do not act in accordance with the predictions of the most ardent Brexiteers I think that the general trend will be to much  greater restrictions on the movement of labour in both directions and  that the needs of dancers will simply get lost.  

Edited March 14, 2017 by FLOSS

[Amelia]

Yes, but that was several years ago: it doesn't directly have anything to do with the Brexit vote.

I DO appreciate that it was not a result of Brexit, but it was an example of how "the politics affect the ballet scene",

be it Brexit or worsened relationships between the countries.

Edited for typo.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Amelia

[taxi4ballet]

Anyone know the impact of Brexit on......the price of sprouts?????!!!!!!

Yes!

 

90% of all sprouts eaten in the UK are grown within 20 miles of where I live, so there won't be an issue - unless the farmers can't employ anyone to pick them of course...

[Johnpw]

Sorry but I don't think that this is a topic to joke about or to take lightly. It is far too serious for the individuals likely to be caught up in the process and with the blustering idiots who are in charge of Brexit I don't think that it is going to be that good for anyone except the select few. There is far too much defiance, posturing, bluster and noise for home consumption by those who have the job of securing our exit from the EU to suggest that anyone has thought that seriously about the process , the immediate consequences of triggering Article 50, let alone those five or more years down the line. As a result I think that the whole thing is going to be a shambles.

 

I hope that I am wrong but my feeling is that it won't be of benefit to anyone much.The dance sector is not one that is going to loom large when it comes to future arrangements for the movement of workers between the UK and the EU  in either direction.Whatever rules are put in place they won't affect the exceptional performer, such rules never do, but they are likely to affect the majority of those working in the sector. With the amount of ill will and unpleasantness that has been generated so far in some quarters in this country and the likelihood of a lot more to come if the members of the EU do not act in accordance with the predictions of the most ardent Brexiteers I think that the general trend will be to much  greater restrictions on the movement of labour in both directions and  that the needs of dancers will simply get lost.  

 

Here's some facts about the current composition of the company from the Royal Ballet website. In what follows I've excluded guests and trainees but included character artists. And aggregated into continental or regional groupings.

 

United Kingdom 40

Commonwealth 11

European Union 10

South America 8

USA 8

Asia 7

Non EU Europe 4

Unknown 1

 

Valeri Hristov is included in the European Union total, but joined the company before Bulgaria joined the EU. 

 

In other words, with a strong home-grown presence, the company is truly international or, as they say these days, "global". As it always has been. Nerina, Cranko, Beriosova, Nureyev, Makarova....those are only names off the top of my head.

 

I haven't done a similar exercise for ENB except to see that out of the nine Lead Principals/Principals, five are non-UK and non-EU. In many European Union countries, especially Germany, company members are recruited globally, often from Russia or former Soviet countries, USA or South America. For a less global company look at the Paris Opera Ballet, despite the French government's profession of an ardent "European-Unionism". 

 

So I'm unclear why rules after Brexit are "likely to affect the majority of those working in the sector" and be unduly restrictive. Foreign dancers were not excluded before 1975 and there are plenty of non-EU dancers currently working in Britain even though they don't enjoy "freedom of movement". In any case, there is an argument to be had as to whether, as a matter of law and principle, a candidate from, say, Estonia should have greater access and right to work here than a dancer from Russia, Colombia or Australia. 

 

The fact is, we don't know what will happen.  Those with influence should be doing what they can to ensure that British dance remains at least as "global" as it is now and, perhaps, more so. I really shouldn't,  but I can't stop myself from observing that it's not only Brexiteers who are guilty of "defiance, posturing, bluster and noise". Nor is "ill will and unpleasantness" solely to be found on this side of the Channel. Some EU politicians generate a considerable amount of their own.

[SwissBalletFan]

Here's some facts about the current composition of the company from the Royal Ballet website. In what follows I've excluded guests and trainees but included character artists. And aggregated into continental or regional groupings.

 

United Kingdom 40

Commonwealth 11

European Union 10

South America 8

USA 8

Asia 7

Non EU Europe 4

Unknown 1

 

 

 

 

After recent developments... How many Scottish dancers are categorised in the United Kingdon?

 

To be fair, Theresa May feels that such a referendum and discussions are divisive and not productive, I won't be commenting further, as I can see such a discussion heating up very fast.

Edited March 14, 2017 by SwissBalletFan

[Vanartus]

I agree. I'm an ardent Remainer. A slightly ironic name as I'm choosing - as a Brit and Mancunian- to leave the country of my birth. I can't joke about it at all. It's life-changing, gut-wrenching and teeth-clenchingly awful for me an others. Perhaps the pro-Europe march on the 25th may be cathartic. As for dance post-Brexit? I think the UK/England will seem less of a friendly welcoming attractive place for all workers. I work in HE and the drop in EU students has been noticeable. I also have colleagues who are now looking elsewhere for posts, whereas before they would never have dreamt of leaving. Ah well...hopefully the pull of the repertoire of the Royal and other dance companies will still attract the best.

[MAB]

I agree. I'm an ardent Remainer. A slightly ironic name as I'm choosing - as a Brit and Mancunian- to leave the country of my birth. I can't joke about it at all. It's life-changing, gut-wrenching and teeth-clenchingly awful for me an others. Perhaps the pro-Europe march on the 25th may be cathartic. As for dance post-Brexit? I think the UK/England will seem less of a friendly welcoming attractive place for all workers. I work in HE and the drop in EU students has been noticeable. I also have colleagues who are now looking elsewhere for posts, whereas before they would never have dreamt of leaving. Ah well...hopefully the pull of the repertoire of the Royal and other dance companies will still attract the best.

 

If leaving Britain is such an ordeal, why are you going?

[Vanartus]

Because I don't indentify with a post-Brexit Britain.

[MAB]

Because I don't indentify with a post-Brexit Britain.

 

Did you identify with pre EU Britain or are you too young?  To me it seems extraordinary that anyone should choose to leave before we even  know what a post Brexit Britain looks like.  Should it turn out to be paradise on earth, would you return?

[Vanartus]

I'm 63. Don't understand what you're trying to say. Don't like the tone of it. No more comment from me.

[MAB]

I suppose I'm saying I've not come across someone who takes politics to such extremes before, but I won't comment further either.

[alison]

Please don't   As you know, we don't encourage politics on this forum, and if this thread gets off a rather narrow track it's liable to be closed.

[BMC]

On a related note, when visiting the Freed factory last year, there was genuine concern about Brexit - both in terms of skilled workers (many of the staff are from overseas) and the export market for the shoes themselves with regards to tariffs etc.

[SwissBalletFan]

On a related note, when visiting the Freed factory last year, there was genuine concern about Brexit - both in terms of skilled workers (many of the staff are from overseas) and the export market for the shoes themselves with regards to tariffs etc.

 

 

Can I say here that for me is where it get confusing for me. I often order things from a  website called wish.com (no affiliation or ownership etc) which usually ships from China. The things there are really great value clothing items, and inventive electrical items. Anyway, I can order a small electrical item or piece of clothing for cheaper than any shop, and the delivery price will range from 1chf (less than a pound) to 6chf which is much less than ordering from the UK through amazon or such like.

 

Therefore I find it strange that China can deliver items at such rates and without me worrying about import taxes and such like. They are of course not part of any Tax union, just to say about my confusion with products shipping and markets.

Edited March 14, 2017 by SwissBalletFan

[Fonty]

Given the verbal hot air coming from Those In Charge of Brexit, I would say that the future problems regarding dancers will be the least of our worries!

And lucky Vanartus.  At the moment, the thought of at least 2 years of news bulletins coming every 10 minutes regarding the latest deal/no deal makes me want to pack my bags and leave right now.

[CHazell2]

I am very apolitical but I don't like the way that the UK is heading. I think that the referendum should never have been held as it has exposed the UK as a very, very divided country. I just wish that there was some way to repair the huge damage that has been done.

Edited March 14, 2017 by CHazell2

[JohnS]

Thank you Floss and Johnpw for your comments above. I'd just add that Brexit uncertainties in the Arts extend well beyond professional companies like the Royal Ballet. The Royal Ballet School has flagged up funding concerns for EU students - deeply worrying for a world centre of excellence, critical for the future growth of the Royal Ballet and contributing hugely to many other companies. And of course not forgetting the (international) young talent nurtured by the School!

[Jamesrhblack]

In an effort to take some of the heat out of this, may I saw that last November I was very pleased to be in Bergen (in Europe but not EU) to see a production of Bellini's I Capuleti e i Montecchi featuring my English baritone, a Russian soprano, a Georgian mezzo, an American tenor, an Italian conductor and a German director ....

[Lindsay]

I am with Vanartus and seriously considering moving. The treatment of more than one European friend who have taught in higher education in the U.K for 20 or 30 years before anxiously trying to regulate their position post-Brexit and for trivial technical reasons receive a letter from the Home Office instructing them to "prepare to leave" makes me physically nauseous. And what I am seeing at the legal charity I am involved with that tries to protect the rights of refugee children is making me think that I never knew what the UK was really like before this. We are seeing not just callous disregard but mockery and hatred towards these most vulnerable of all.

 

We live in dark dark times and the chaotic idiots in charge, backed by our vicious press and with no serious opposition are in a fair way to making things much much worse. I am a great supporter of the arts but I almost have no headspace left to worry about them.

[alison]

Can we keep this strictly to the subject of the thread, please, or the thread will be closed.

[hfbrew]

Can we keep this strictly to the subject of the thread, please, or the thread will be closed.

Please folks, it would be nice if the moderators were heeded to this time! We have had far too many threads locked and valuable members leave recently due to topics off course.

Good luck to dancers of all Nationalities seeking work in this precarious profession and the companies who wish to be able to employ them.

[Harwel]

My concern is not for the foreign dancers who want to come here, the best will always be allowed in. But for all the British dancers making their living dancing in EU companies. They must be feeling very concerned about what they will need to do to stay in their jobs and whether artistic directors will be sympathetic to the process they have to go through. My feeling is that some will just take the easy option, not renew a British dancers contract and replace with an EU dancer.

 

Then of course there are all the current students who have realised that their main chance of dancing professionally is to dance abroad. Will artistic directors even give them a chance when they have no idea about the type of hoops that will have to be jumped through? It is a very real concern for current dancers and students.

[aileen]

There are of course a lot of non-EU dancers who work in the UK. The companies accept that they have to apply for work visas for them for a few years until they are given Leave to Remain which I think they are eligible for after about five years. Some non-EU dancers, particularly from Australia, NZ and Canada, may have dual nationality already or benefit from what used to be called Patriality which entitles you to work in the UK without a work visa for a few years. However, quite a few of these non-EU dancers are international competition winners and the ADs are presumably willing to make the extra effort needed to bring them to / keep them in the UK. Looking at the situation the other way round, and as Harwel says, it may become more difficult for British graduates looking for that first, perhaps temporary, contract to get work in the EU when companies will have to go to the trouble of applying for work visas. It's much less hassle to stipulate in application forms that applicants must have the right to work in the EU. Getting that first contract is already very hard. I've noticed, certainly at ENB, that a large number of their artist positions go to dancers moving from other companies rather than new graduates.

[Colman]

It may end up being very bad for Irish dance: professional training options here are very limited, at best, and most seem to end up in UK schools. A very hard-hitting acrimonious Brexit could make that impossible.

 

Best to avoid the politics here, since like others I doubt I could contain my rage at what is being done to the land of my birth and childhood.

[Bruce Wall]

I am a great supporter of the arts but I almost have no headspace left to worry about them.

 

We - and the dance we so passionately care for - can, of course, only ever live in our own time.

 

Should the above referenced division emerge as an overhanging repercussion of the Brexit divorce proceedings - and I pray it won't - it may well, I fear, be the most damaging element of all.  

 

Out of mind is out of sight ... and no artform - certainly not ballet - (this being BcoF) - can afford to tangle or indeed creatively survive in that kind of environment.  

Edited March 15, 2017 by Bruce Wall

[MAB]

It may end up being very bad for Irish dance: professional training options here are very limited, at best, and most seem to end up in UK schools. A very hard-hitting acrimonious Brexit could make that impossible.

 

Best to avoid the politics here, since like others I doubt I could contain my rage at what is being done to the land of my birth and childhood.

 

As an Irish national I'm aware there are no barriers between Britain and Eire, you don't even need a passport to travel between the two.  Irish people settled in Britain (such as my late mother) have always enjoyed full rights in this country including the right to vote, they just have to register.  The reason for this is because of the land border with the UK.  Where Ireland is concerned, nothing will change

[Lindsay]

I would not be so sure about that MAB.  There is concern that the border between the north and the Republic will have to become a customs barrier after Brexit (because Ireland will still be an EU member and have to abide with the rules of the Customs Union as regards borders with non-members), which is obviously very difficult practically.  You will have seen the issue hotly debated in the recent assembly elections in the North.  There are fears that the issue will reignite hostile sectarian feelings.

 

My family is also Irish and many are currently seeking Irish passports for their children, in the hope that they will retain rights to travel and work across the EU.

 

And thank you Bruce for the reminder that at times like this, when it's tempting to think of art as an irrelevant frivolity (even in households like mine where half the members make their living in the arts) is perhaps the moment when art is most crucially important

Edited March 15, 2017 by Lindsay

[Angela]

But for all the British dancers making their living dancing in EU companies. They must be feeling very concerned about what they will need to do to stay in their jobs and whether artistic directors will be sympathetic to the process they have to go through. My feeling is that some will just take the easy option, not renew a British dancers contract and replace with an EU dancer.

 

But why should they??? In an audition, ballet and dance directors look for long legs, high jumps, placement, intelligence, beauty, musicality, education, whatever - the last thing they look for is the passport. If Russian, American, Brazilian, Chinese dancers get visa to make it into European companies, why should the British stay out? I really don't understand why you are concerned.

Ballet has always been the theatrical art form that had the most immigrants (and emigrants, I suppose), why should it change? If companies are "pure" like the Mariinsky or Paris or the NYCB, it is rather a question of the right schooling and education, not necessarily of passports. German companies for example are proud of their international diversity.