Who is todays most famous dancer internationally or by country?

[SwissBalletFan]

Following from the Sergei Polunin thread, which I think has been a bit derailed by the point I made about Misty Copeland being the current most famous dancer in the world to the general public, a discussion has continued about this topic, that probably deserves its own thread. Mods, maybe you could please move the posts to here?

 

My point about this topic is that for some reasons outside of the art form usually, either a very supportive rich banking spouse, or a pop star notices and supports your career, or you defect from a different country, or partners with a defector, the press snaps up the dancer and throws them into the main eye of the press. (points awarded for each dancer referenced in this description). 

 

The point is in some cases analogous to the specific ability of the dancer, the person becomes a household name in either their country or internationally. I believe that more than 50% of the audience in a any opera house could not name more than 2/3 dancers on stage without the cast list,and they are generally going to watch 'the ballet'.

 

If you asked me to give a 'family fortunes/feud' board of: we asked 100 people to name a famous ballet dancer in the world dancing RIGHT NOW. I could personally could imagine the answer as follows:

 

23 Copeland

17 Polunin

10 Bolle

(the rest)

 

To be fair, the easiest way is probably just to count their respective social media followers.

 

Thoughts?

 

EDIT Changed numbers I think the others would be a lot higher but couldn't think of such big names right now.

Edited March 7, 2017 by SwissBalletFan

[Quintus]

Great topic.  I suggest you firm up that definition of 'famous' for us, then we can debate what evidence would support the defining criteria and where that evidence might be found.  Are you for example defining 'famous' as 'the dancer most named if the general public were asked to name one ballet dancer' ?.  Is it a currently active dancer or any dancer?  That is a loaded question as doubtless if you asked someone in the street in the UK, they would say 'Darcey Bussell', who is retired but front-of-mind because of TV appearances.  Averaging globally, the results are also skewed by population size and local media-worthy social issues, hence the prominence of Misty Copeland, as regardless of relative talent (a neutral comment, bear with me) she is a huge black success story in a country with a large population where being black is a recognised obstacle to success and hence a media pull.  In Russia the population is arguably more ballet-savvy and more likely to choose on fame-from-ability, but has less than half the size of the USA...  Counting social media followers is interesting but arguably selects for a population interested in ballet rather than the general public, and also the prevalence of a particular platform in a particular country...

Edited March 7, 2017 by Quintus

[SwissBalletFan]

Thank you Quintus for the follow up. As a forum, I am sure there is a wide range of experience about the 'fame game' topic for dancers and general name recognition. I think this forum is generally UK focussed and I am sure there could be lots of stories about Bussell vs other talented dancers of her time who were not generally considered more famous.

 

To this end, I guess for me, fame is about if I talked to a friend or stranger about the ballet, who they might have heard of who is dancing in these times. Like I say, I would like to think this could be a thread to discuss light-hearted stories or views rather than an argument that is looking for a definitive answer.

 

Although I think the pool of talent is huge in the ballet world, it seems still that only a few names for whatever reason reverberate into the press pages or forum inches.

[Balletfanp]

I don't think you can necessarily use the number of followers of social media accounts as an entirely accurate reflection, simply because it depends when it was set up. Some dancers set up accounts years ago and have built up thousands of followers, whilst someone else may only have set up their account a month ago and have relatively few.

 

Also, some dancers post prolifically on the social media and use it very much as a promotion tool (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing unless it's done to death - there's a balance to be struck), whereas others post rarely.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Balletfanp

[Quintus]

So as a highly scientific poll, I asked my two sons, both of whom I've taken to a couple of ballets.  Neither could think of any names at all - though one did say 'who was that bloke we saw with the massive legs', by which I know he means Ivan Vasiliev.  My gut sense is that outside the ballet-going world, rather few people in the UK could name any current UK dancers (but I think both Darcey and Carlos Acosta would come up if we allowed retirees, and a generation back, Wayne Sleep) and furthermore very few either would have heard of Misty Copeland.  It's largely TV or scandal that gets people known, and our current crop of principals don't get featured outside specific ballet programmes. Darcey and Wayne used to guest on mass-appeal  programmes like the Generation Game, French and Saunders etc and I'm not sure there's a current equivalent vehicle (or indeed dancers queuing up to get on them).  If that gut sense is right about the general public, then fame is actually determined by the ballet going world, which should be fairly reflected by this forum!

Edited March 7, 2017 by Quintus

[Vonrothbart]

Since you posted SBF, I have asked six people, and none of them could name one.

[Odyssey]

How can we be surprised that dancers are largely unknown to today's general public when there is do little coverage of ballet in the mainstream media? Perhaps the live screenings will begin to have an impact, but the days when Fonteyn and Nureyev were household names seems sadly unlikely to be repeated.

[Shya100]

If you are going on casual readers of the papers you definitely would have heard of Polunin and actually maybe Osipova and Vasilev. After that probably Nunez and Soares. He less so now but there used to be articles about them when they were married in the main stream press on Sundays and stuff. Misty Copeland I wouldn't never have heard of. The only two in the RB I would have heard of after those would be Cuthbertson and Watson. Occasional articles about them. The rest. De nada.

 

The best known ballerina on these shores is still Bussellooking.

[Yaffa]

I'd be interested to know how people in Russia would answer this... Tsiskaridze (even though he's basically retired as a dancer)? Or perhaps Vishneva? Lopatkina? Or one of the younger dancers who are rapidly rising through the ranks? 

[MAB]

Russia is certainly what I'd call a very 'ballet aware' country, the only other place with a similar awareness I imagine would be Japan.

[zxDaveM]

probably still Darcey Bussell...

[Quintus]

I'd be interested to know how people in Russia would answer this... Tsiskaridze (even though he's basically retired as a dancer)? Or perhaps Vishneva? Lopatkina? Or one of the younger dancers who are rapidly rising through the ranks? 

 

 

Me too.  I suspect Zakharova would be on the Russian list too as she has a political role as well as her dancing career so presumably gets lots of media coverage

[bridiem]

Reminds me of the University Challenge in 2015 when a team was asked three ballerina-related questions, and in the end the only answer they gave to all three was 'Margot Fonteyn'. (See the Raven Girl thread.)

[aileen]

Margot Fonteyn and Rudolf Nureyev were household names. Even people who had never seen a ballet had heard of them. The only person who comes close is Darcey Bussell who appeared on French and Saunders and became very much more famous after she retired as the result of joining the Strictly judging team. Why were Fonteyn and Nureyev so famous? Was ballet shown on television much more? I think that they featured in television news items (eg Fonteyn at a glamorous social event or stepping off a plane to dance somewhere) and in newspapers and magazines much more than today's dancers.

[RMM1]

The dancer with the biggest exposure this past year in the UK must be Alessandra Ferri with the Boots adverts as well as the Woolf Works publicity, but how many people have actually taken in who she is?

[MAB]

Margot Fonteyn and Rudolf Nureyev were household names. Even people who had never seen a ballet had heard of them. The only person who comes close is Darcey Bussell who appeared on French and Saunders and became very much more famous after she retired as the result of joining the Strictly judging team. Why were Fonteyn and Nureyev so famous? Was ballet shown on television much more? I think that they featured in television news items (eg Fonteyn at a glamorous social event or stepping off a plane to dance somewhere) and in newspapers and magazines much more than today's dancers.

 

Although the current 'celebrity culture' of celebrating people simply for being famous is relatively new, the press did follow the doings of a select few.  Apart from Fonteyn & Nureyev we also had Callas & Onassis and Taylor and Burton.  Couple of other points, back in the sixties few people had actually flown and a picture of someone famous descending the steps of an airliner was considered glamorous, also Fonteyn always looked the part of a prima decked out in Yves St Laurent.  Apart from their fashion shoots today's dancers don't stand out from the crowd sartorially.

[jm365]

And Nureyev was a sensation because of his dramatic defection - the first.  And I can remember the excitement when he came to London - it was a news story, not just a ballet story.  It helped that he was a 'personality' off stage as well as on - and extraordinarily good looking.  He was endlessly photographed.

[SwissBalletFan]

From the comments above I agree that Zakharova would join the 'Top Table' of World Famous ballet dancers right now.

 

Darcey Bussell isn't dancing any more so doesn't really qualify, I wonder what separated he apart from the dancers in the last 10-15 years who have not emerged as household names. It seems also that by sheer force (of.... it doesn't much seem like it is on screen charisma tbh) DB has been the sole ballet person on TV to make shows about ballet stars of the past etc...

[Jacqueline]

I asked some random people at the library today if they could name any current ballet dancers. One mentioned "that woman that advertises face cream." Couldn't remember her name and had never heard of her before the ad.

Another one said the name Sergei rang a bell but might be confusing him with the meerkats. Spookily, the other currently famous meerkat is called Aleksandr Orlov. A human Aleksandr Orlov was if I remember rightly, a dancer with Balles Russes.

[Don Q Fan]

Misty who???

 

Yes I have heard of and seen her but I don't think she's huge in the same way Lopatkina, Vishneva, Zakharova and poss Osipova are?

Edited March 8, 2017 by Don Q Fan

[Fonty]

I think Fonteyn was pretty much a household name before Nureyev came along, wasn't she?  I can remember my parents talking about her, and they were not particularly knowledgeable about ballet.  She toured a lot during the war.

 

It seems sad to think that any names that might spring to mind amongst the general population now are all dead.  Lovers of old films would probably be able to name Moira Shearer and Robert Helpmann.  And people might recognise the names Anna Pavlova or Isadora Duncan, particularly the latter as she was the subject of at least one film that I saw when I was a child.  

[loveclassics]

Fonteyn was also in the news when she was arrested in Panama for suspected gun-running for her husband, Tito Arias.  Today's dancers seem too busy with their careers to be newsworthy - at least as far as the popular press is concerned.

 

Linda

[_emeralds]

I'm thinking if I asked friends of mine, who have little interest in ballet specifically, but who are relatively well informed in terms of the arts and culture generally, that they would struggle to name a current ballet dancer.

Darcey Bussell or Carlos Acosta may crop up, though they are (relatively recently) retired from the stage...

Sergei Polunin perhaps, as he had huge exposure in the video to Take me to Church. Perhaps Misty Copeland as she is covered a great deal in the media with the Prince connection and for her rise as first black principal dancer at Abt. Perhaps Ferri as she features on the face cream advert.

Bolle, Zakharova and Vishneva - absolutely not. They are well known in ballet circles but I don't think they've 'crossed over' to the general public / mass media.

[toursenlair]

 Perhaps Misty Copeland as she is covered a great deal in the media with the Prince connection and for her rise as first black principal dancer at Abt.

 

First black FEMALE principal dancer in ABT. Desmond Richardson was a principal with ABT in the 70s.

[_emeralds]

Ah yes, thank you

[SwissBalletFan]

Bolle, Zakharova and Vishneva - absolutely not. They are well known in ballet circles but I don't think they've 'crossed over' to the general public / mass media.

 

Roberto Bolle sells out stadiums in Italy. His Roberto Bolle & Friends tour attracts the best stars of the world, and in Summer he dances and sells out Arena di Verona which seats 14,000 people. I am not sure there are any other dancers who can claim to have achieved that. Or could at all.

 

Zakharova is clearly the definition of a russian Prima Ballerina and known throughout the world and a household name in Russia and Italy where she is a guest at La Scala.

 

Vishneva guests in the US and Russia and has her own gala circuit too.

 

I understand that for you 'absolutely not', but the idea of the general public and fame is that it is not representative of the ballet fans or world, but of the ticket buying general public.

 

The three you mention have many more fans globally than Acosta or Bussell and prove it with ticket sales. Although Bussell could be argued to pull in a lot larger numbers in television figures.

Edited March 8, 2017 by SwissBalletFan

[Quintus]

Misty who???

 

Yes I have heard of and seen her but I don't think she's huge in the same way Lopatkina, Vishneva, Zakharova and poss Osipova are?

 

 

She's very famous in the US and is very actively promoted by her management team, in the way that sports stars are.  It's a blunt indicator as so many variables are involved, and is skewed to the US, but she has 1.3 million Instagram followers; Bolle has 375k, Vishneva 103k, Kochetkova 162k, Salenko 159K, Nunez 85k, Osipova 74k.   I wouldn't be surprised if she's one of the highest overall earners around, from product endorsements, books, adverts, modelling etc.     

[_emeralds]

SBF I'm not disputing that Bolle, Zakharova and Vishneva are world famous dancers that perform stand alone shows for thousands of ardent fans. I thought I'd made it clear in my post that I was speculating on the imagined results of if I straw-polled friends of mine who I believe to be reasonably culturally aware but not specifically ballet fans - as to who THEY would be able to name. I thought that was the original question in the thread, obviously I misunderstood it.

Forgive me if my response was too Uk-centric, but that is where I live and that is where most of my friends live, as to which dancers are household names in Russia and Italy i haven't the foggiest but I wasn't trying to answer that.

I will bow out now and leave the discussion to others.

Edited March 8, 2017 by _emeralds

[Jan McNulty]

You are quite right _emeralds - my guess is that no member of the general public in the UK would be able to name Bolle, Zakharova or Vishneva.

 

However many people in the UK could probably come up with Bussell and quite a few Acosta.  When Acosta first appeared at the Manchester International Festival I had absolutely no difficulty getting tickets but by the time the performances came around at The Lowry people were queuing for returns.  I got into conversation with a lady who was trying to find the way from the car park to the theatre and she knew all about Carlos Acosta but she had never even heard of Birmingham Royal Ballet who had been at The Lowry the month before or even about anyone he had ever danced with.

 

Ask any of my ex-colleagues to name a ballet dancer and most of them could name Chi Cao - because I used to talk about his performances and some of them occasionally listened to me.  They also knew Bussell and Acosta because of the publicity they received.

 

I would say, from doing the Links, that Misty Copeland is probably the dancer most likely to be a household name.  I base this statement on the amount of syndicated articles that appear about her mostly in the States but that are also picked up by the press world-wide including the media in the likes of India, Malaysia, Oman... the list is endless.

 

Your points are very valid _emeralds.

[Scheherezade]

Whatever the position worldwide, I would be surprised if, balletomanes excluded, the UK public could name a single living dancer apart from Darcey Bussell (and just possibly Carlos Acosta amongst the better informed). A number of my son's friends have been wowed by the 'Take me to the Church' video. Not one has the faintest idea of the identity of the dancer, nor any interest in discovering whom he might be. 

[Saodan]

Michaela DePrince has received some attention. Her book sold well and she has been featured in lots of tv and print (or online is you prefer) news articles. Also an appearance on 'Dancing with the Stars' in the US and she was in the music video for a Beyonce song. I’m not sure how many people could name her, but some may recall hearing about her story. Perhaps it speak volumes that any fame she has is for her life (impressive as it may be) rather than her dancing.

[Odyssey]

Yes Michaela is about to have a young children's story version of her autobiography published. Her personal story is a remarkable one. If she were to continue to guest with ENB, I think she might become someone who the media here would be very interested in.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Odyssey

[Jacqueline]

SBF I'm not disputing that Bolle, Zakharova and Vishneva are world famous dancers that perform stand alone shows for thousands of ardent fans. I thought I'd made it clear in my post that I was speculating on the imagined results of if I straw-polled friends of mine who I believe to be reasonably culturally aware but not specifically ballet fans - as to who THEY would be able to name. I thought that was the original question in the thread, obviously I misunderstood it.

Forgive me if my response was too Uk-centric, but that is where I live and that is where most of my friends live, as to which dancers are household names in Russia and Italy i haven't the foggiest but I wasn't trying to answer that.

I will bow out now and leave the discussion to others.

You are right, that was the original question. Please do not bow out of the discussion.

I was speculating as to who it might be, based on the definition of fame. As in somebody who is well known across the board/world, not just to people who have a specific interest. I don't set much store by how many followers a dancer has. It may sound a lot but if you set that against how many millions of people are on this planet, it's a drop in the ocean. There are thousands of people who follow the tv ad meerkats as well and they're not even real. I am what you could call a dance fan but I don't "follow" any dancers on social media.

At the moment, I would hazard a guess and this is just my opinion, it is Carlos Acosta. He is only retired from classical dance and doing his own thing now, with his own company. Most people I have asked had heard of him. With the caveat that when I mentioned his name, they said oh yes, he's a dancer. Asked to name a dancer without prompting was another matter.