Dance Festivals adjudication

[Balletmum22]

My dd is 8 years old and has danced at festivals for the last 2 years. She tends to do well - she is often placed in the top 3 or 4 dancers with on average between 84 and 86 marks (commended) but she has never received Distinction (87 or 88) for any of her solos whereas some of the other girls in the same age received a mark of 88 at the last festival. She has qualified 7 dances for the All England dance festival in May. Any tips on how to help her move her up 1 or 2 marks so she has a chance at the All England Regionals to get through to the Finals?

 

Also, does anyone know what adjudicator Janet Palmer usually looks for? They all seem to emphasize different things, some find arms very important whereas others look for musicality and artistry??

 

 

[Pups_mum]

I don't think there's anything specific you can do to improve marks - as you say, every adjudicator is different. Your DD is still very young and as long as she is enjoying herself and doing her best that's all that matters really. I think confidence goes  a long way at festivals, and that often just develops with time.

I wouldn't stress over what individual adjudicator's like to be honest. My DD had a Spanish Jota for her national just before she finished doing festivals, and one adjudicator told her that she was lifting her legs too high and was too energetic, the next that she wasn't energetic enough and her legs needed to go higher...and so on, repeatedly..... She just settled for doing it the way she thought was right! If you tried to change  a dance, or technique based on what every adjudicator said you would get into a complete tizzy. Of course some comments are extremely valuable and should be taken on board - your teacher should be able to help you figure out how much emphasis to put on certain comments at this stage but as your DD gets older she will begin to know herself what she finds helpful. My DD struggled with a particular Greek step until an adjudicator corrected her - that was a real "lightbulb" moment - but other comments arhave been less helpful!

Remember that adjudictors are only human. they have personal preferences, and almost universally more  have knowledge about some genres than others, so someone may give brilliant, helpful ballet comments and be distinctly dodgy in the tap section, or vice versa. It's one person's opinion of a very short "snapshot" of a child, so whilst that can be very useful (and my DD loved her festival experiences on the whole) it's best not to place too much importance on particular marks or comments.

[Pups_mum]

The other thing I meant to say was that I'm not sure marks mean a huge amount in absolute terms anyway, as there are definite "hawks and doves" amongst adjudicators. Over the years I've been at festivals where nobody scored over 86 and others where the adjudicator threw 90's round like smarties....with largely the same dancers participating. I think the highest mark my DD ever got was 94, which obviously she was delighted with, but there were 86s from some super tough adjudicators that she valued at least as much.

[Balletmum22]

Thank you Pups_mum! Very interesting reflections and I totally agree with you. It is sometimes easy to get carried away by a desire to improve and get better. I should just make sure she is relaxed and enjoys the experience as much as possible. Her teacher tells me it is mostly a thing of confidence with her. But I also know that she got a mark of 81 at her RAD grade 1 exam whereas another child got 88. That's why I thought that it is also her technique that needs to improve but it is so hard to know the right balance between urging her to improve and putting her off dancing...

[primrose]

I think you need to relax and just enjoy the experience. Pups mum couldn't have put things better. My daughter did festivals for years and they are very enjoyable but incredibly subjective.Just enjoy your dd performance. Another top tip is not to get to worried about how your dd exam marks compare to another child's. Remember exam marks do not make a professional dancer and play absolutely no part in getting them into vocational schools or associate classes. If you relax so will your daughter and she will grow in confidence.

[BlueLou]

Yes, agree with the above that adjudicators rankings are very subjective and marks variable. Sometimes it wouldn’t surprise me if 2 different adjudicators watching the same section would award a completely different top 3 with a mark difference of 5 marks. My dd has had marks ranging from 87 to 92 for her current modern routine and it always looks the same to me! Also, some dancers have more challenging choreography. This may not necessarily go in their favour. Some adjudicators seem to prefer a less challenging routine nailed perfectly, others like to see a more challenging routine with maybe the odd shortcoming. Ballet for 13/14 year olds is particularly difficult to second guess the adjudication, with some girls just starting en pointe, and others doing a lovely routine in flats. Personally, especially with younger dancers, I like to see them look like they are really enjoying themselves (but I’m not an adjudicator, I’ve just sat through a lot of festivals!). Just enjoy the ride

[Loulabelle]

My DD has had the SAME adjudicator award her 87 marks at one festival and then a month later 84 at a different festival. Both with the same sort of comments on her sheet. Her teacher said she'd danced better the second time.

[sarahw]

Pixie I totally agree with everyone else - if your dd is enjoying her dancing then that is all that matters. (Actually she is getting very good marks I think.)

 

The bottom line is that it's a hobby for most and even if she has career aspirations the early developers aren't necessarily those who make it in the end.

[Legseleven]

I couldn't agree more. And success at festivals or in exams by no means always translates to success in terms of pursuing dance as a career.

[joyofdance]

Definitely agree with all of the above. Every adjudicator is different and looks for different things and that can vary on the day.. I don;t think you can second guess it. I know a few Mums who research adjudicators and say things like, so and so really like technique but so and so likes tricks etc and they then push their child to work on a particular area and it doesn't always work in their favour. Sounds like your daughter is doing very well with her marks. 

[Petalviolet]

What irritates me is when you see excellent adjudication brushed off, excused, justified, ignored and waived away as a matter of individual taste. You have to be able to take criticism, to be open to the idea that there are different ways of doing things and that you can always learn something no matter how long you've been in the game. I don't expect DD to make excuses, she's had some great feedback and some lessons to learn this week that she wouldn't have got in class and she has certainly dealt with it better than some adults I've seen.

Festivals can be a bit of a harsh experience and sometimes the cards are stacked against you before you even set foot on stage. I've seen marks deducted for one particular song or move and how do you explain that unlucky coincidence to a young child and what lesson does it teach?

 

I would still rather spend a week alternating between the exhausting high and los of competition than see DD buried in her iPad though.

[Pointe-less]

I don't think festival or exam marks hold much weight in terms of truly rating a child's potential. I have a friend who's daughter consistently scored high 70's to low 80's in her exams and low to mid 80's at festivals, and was often beaten by her friends scoring high 80's to low 90's, yet she had multiply vocational school offers for both year 7 and 8 with funding auditions and a bursary offer whilst none of said friends got a single offer!! Don't ask me why or how but they obviously liked my friends dd, so after that I realised that vocational schools obviously just want what they want and that's not necessarily a high scoring festival/exam dancer?!

[taxi4ballet]

It's just one person's opinion on one day

 

Pixie, your dd is still very young, so let her enjoy herself, and try not to worry about marks etc.

[Sandsfoot]

I agree with all of these comments. The marks are a bit random at times and seem to vary widely but I think they reflect personal preferences which we all have. I often disagree with my friend on what I like and don't like and I have my personal pet hates (feet not stretched, inappropriate for age choreography or song choice etc). I also think sometimes the children dance slightly differently or bring something additional to their performance which ups their mark. 

Adjudicators have their own expertise and are stronger in some areas than others but they do a great job on the whole and as long as I feel they have given the performance their whole attention (not always the case) and they seem genuinely pleased and interested in helping the children develop, whether they are looking for a professional career or just doing if for fun, then I am happy. I don't like it if they are openly critical of the children on the stage as this I feel is unnecessary with children and can be demoralising and upsetting. There are ways of giving constructive criticism.

I have seen some amazing performers and performances at festivals and been very entertained at times. I also really love watching different children develop over the years and we have also met some lovely people along the way. Although I have never been to a festival where anyone has got 94! that is amazing. Top mark I have witnessed is 91.

The regional finals have 3 adjudicators which helps with the variation in personal taste but they only put people through who are pretty much perfect - you have to get a high mark (honours) and be placed. My tip would be practice makes perfect - numerous studies in many fields (sport, medicine, learning an instrument) show that success and how good you get at it is often down to the amount of time you spend practicing it and not necessarily innate ability. But she is still so young so don't sweat it too much, if she loves performing and you love watching her then that is the most important thing.

[richieN]

It always makes me smile when I see competitions in what are essentially creative and subjective arts. 

 

For this reason, I'm not concerned with either of my DDs entering festivals. As long as they enjoy it, and whoever is watching is entertained, why bother with marks? It just seems counter-intuitive to me.

I get that some people like to get feedback on how well they are doing. But to me, applause from an audience and a hug from my wife and I is enough for my DDs.

[BlueLou]

How does anyone judge National sections?!!! Do adjudicators actually know what all those dances are meant to look like? Everything from a traditional Slovakian Wedding Dance to a Bulgarian Ribbon Dance …… are some of them just made up by dance teachers or are they all recognised traditional National dances?? It’s nice if you get an Irish or a Scottish routine to watch, but other than that, I’m completely lost.

[sarahw]

BlueLou I've been wondering exactly the same for years!!!

[Pixiewoo]

BlueLou I've been wondering exactly the same for years!!!

me too!

 

my 'favourites' to date ..  

 

'the Swedish mitten dance'

'the buying a baguette French dance'

and another that I can't remember where it was from, but it entailed carrying a small cushion round whilst dancing! and this wasn't a little girls dance! this was one of the older girls!

 

last time DD did her national, the adjudicator did comment that the arm position and 'head tilt' was similar to another countries national dance, and that there was a lot of cross over between several of those countries! ... so I'm guessing she at least, did have an idea about what she was watching!

[Pups_mum]

Some adjudicators are a lot more clued up on nationals than others, and as a general rule most will be more knowledgeable about more "mainstream" countries' dance styles than those from more obscure corners of the world. If I recall rightly, the character syllabus in the old RAD grades contained largely Russian, Polish and Hungarian dances as steps from these cultures are said to be most relevant to classical ballet - I don't know the new grades at all so no idea if that's still the case. But assuming that's correct, I guess you would expect most adjudicators to be at least fairly familiar with those styles, and one would hope that a decent adjudicator would educate his or herself about as many of the countries that are typically represented in national sections as possible. And it's definitely true that if you know a reasonable amount about some countries you can kind of figure out what the style of adjacent countries might include even if you are not an expert in the detail. For example, an adjudicator might not be an expert in say, Macedonian dance, but given the geography wouldn't be suprised to see Russian and Turkish influences apparent.I don't expect anyone can know every style in the same depth though, and as ever, personal preference must play a role.

The same goes for teachers I think. A lot of national solos have to be "made up" really, because a lot of traditional folk dances were originally group dances so can't be used as solos in their original form. But you can have a "made up" dance with authentic steps and style. Certainly my daughter did a fair amount of research into her nationals as she got older, to be sure that the music, costume and choreography was authentic. The ISTD has a specific National syllabus, though not that many schools seem to teach it which I think is a shame. DD did Intermediate and Advanced 1 and said that she found it helped her to understand dance in general better. There are definitely some adjudicators who obviously haven't studied nationals though - they tend to make lots of comments about pretty costumes in my experience!

[Guest]

Best national dance experience: Georgian dance - absolutely beautiful and if done well the dancer appears to be gliding across the stage as if on castors... the costumes are always a bit of a 'mare though because the hem of the dress has to be exactly the right length so it just skims the floor. Growth spurt before festival not allowed.

 

Worst national dance experience was a Swiss dance that involved a big velvet bonnet with a huge frill round it. Spent hours convincing dd that she did not look silly in it (cock a doodle doo) only to hear some children (from another dance school) say 'Hey look at that girl!! She looks just like a chicken!!'....

[ParentTaxi]

'An axe for my brother' remains my favourite ever national dance - not DD's, but one I have seen at a festival we attended....

[joyofdance]

I am so glad that my daughter no longer does national dancing. It felt like torture having to sit through the classes at festivals. My worst national experience was a whole day/competition specifically for national dancing. I still have flashbacks.. 

[shygirlsmum]

Slightly off topic but festival related. DD won her modern section on Saturday, only to find that the previous winner of the trophy (two years ago) had not returned it. I understand that the previous winner was from out of town and a bit of a dance celeb having appeared on TV and danced at the dance World Champs (or similar can't remember what it was). I'm disgusted that someone would do this, some trophies that DD has won before have been 50+ years old and carry so much history, DD loves checking out the trophy to see who has won previously.

 

Rant over.... on a happier note at least I save on engraving charges ????

Edited February 20, 2017 by shygirlsmum

[sarahw]

You may need counselling for that joyofdance. .......

[Pups_mum]

I have to confess that lost a trophy once. I think I might have returned it to the wrong festival...whoops.

But I did buy a new one, as close in style to the original as I could find, and I apologised profusely. I think it's rather bad manners to just fail to return it.

[dramascientist]

Oh I loved it when DD won the ballet trophy that I had won when I was little. It still had the dent in it that was made when we had a very bad car accident one day, luckily everybody was eventually fine but the blood never fully came out of our costumes, though I think my mum still has those too!

[Guest]

I am so glad that my daughter no longer does national dancing. It felt like torture having to sit through the classes at festivals. My worst national experience was a whole day/competition specifically for national dancing. I still have flashbacks..

perhaps you have post traumatic dress disorder?

[Kate_N]

And success at festivals or in exams by no means always translates to success in terms of pursuing dance as a career.

 

Absolutely agree with this, and with the comment that exam & competition marks rarely have an impact on a career.

 

Sometimes, even the reverse, as the "eyes and teeth" mode of some competition dancing (doing tricks etc) is actually very detrimental to quality proper training. In ballet at least.

 

 

Although I could say A LOT about the absolutely clear & professional practices of examining or evaluating creative work. I do it at university level all the time. We have clear criteria and years of professional experience. Our students always moan about "subjective" marking, but it's really not.

 

However, we also say to them that they should not obsess about the difference in marks between individual markers when the differences are a few points (eg 81 or 87). Such differences are really not material. And the same kinds of differences are noted across any kind of marking or evaluation in most (if not all) subjects. There are very few human endeavours at a high level in which we're either right or wrong. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Kate_N

[Petalviolet]

I am so glad that my daughter no longer does national dancing. It felt like torture having to sit through the classes at festivals. My worst national experience was a whole day/competition specifically for national dancing. I still have flashbacks..

 

Is Greek a National dance or its own thing? I have seen two Greek dances this week - is there always a lot of bed linen?

[sarahw]

Classical Greek is a separate type of dance - with 'lazy' feet. And you can get a Greek National as well.

 

Haven't seen a lot of bed linen myself TBH.

 

I remember the same confusion the first festival I went to - I'm completely sad now and non dancing friends rightfully look completely staggered during such conversations.....

 

The main relevance of classical Greek to us has been foot strengthening. ...

[Pups_mum]

Classical Greek is a genre of its own. You can have Greek folk dances in a national section of course but that's completely different.

Classical Greek is a style of dance largely developed by Ruby Ginner in the early 20th century and the dances tend to be based either on ancient Greek legends or natural themes like flowers and animals. There are quite a few subdivisions of the genre, such as lyrical and athletic styles each with a specific vocabulary and choreographic style.

[Petalviolet]

The mind boggles.

 

Lovely dancing but risky with prongs and sheets and daggers. Found the little bit of National with ribbons very serene and soothing after the "eyes and teeth". They should do more of that, it's like visual sorbet.

[Petalviolet]

Classical Greek is a genre of its own. You can have Greek folk dances in a national section of course but that's completely different.

Classical Greek is a style of dance largely developed by Ruby Ginner in the early 20th century and the dances tend to be based either on ancient Greek legends or natural themes like flowers and animals. There are quite a few subdivisions of the genre, such as lyrical and athletic styles each with a specific vocabulary and choreographic style.

Wow! The dance world expands exponentially before pv's eyes. So you could have a dance that was pretending to be sprinters at the ancient Olympics or you're a faun etc and not because your dance school is bonkers (my first thought) but because this is A THING and goes back actually quite a long way..but not quite as far as you think but still..quite far? I've learnt something today.