donastcolombe Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Long time lurker, finally registered for an account. Wondering if anyone has any experiences of being allowed to join in grade classes, rather than specifically adult ballet classes? I've been been dancing for about 2 1/2 years, now in my early 20s. I did technically dance as a child but feel like I've only really begun learning proper technique since I took it up again as an adult. Currently I'm taking 4 classes a week but think one of them is likely to be cancelled after Easter. One class I'm taking at the moment is an adult syllabus class with the aim of ultimately taking grade 5, which is really exciting. I also have a class at another school which isn't quite as 'dancy' if that makes any sense, there's more emphasis on barre work and repetition but I'm finding that really useful for building strength and proper technique. When I first asked to join this class through their website, they asked me if I would like to also attend their advanced syllabus class for teenagers which would be far, far beyond me, so I politely declined and just joined the adult class. Since I'm now working towards a syllabus exam though, I'm wondering about joining the grade 5 class at this school. It's on a night I can do, and if I end up losing the fourth class I really would like to find a replacement. and it would be great to have another grade 5 class. I'm usually the youngest in adult classes by quite a bit so would be quite happy to take class with a bunch of teenagers, the age difference wouldn't really bother me. I'm more worried the dance school might be happy to put me in with the older teenagers in the advanced class but less happy about putting me into a grade 5 class. Does anyone have any experience of doing this? Are dance teachers generally happy to put adults in with their teenagers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theother51 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 You would have to ask the teacher. It may be that additional safeguarding measures would have to be put in place. Is the grade 5 class definately teenagers as in some dance schools that would be 11/12 year olds so you would need to be prepared for a minute ch less mature attitude than you are used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 You would have to ask the teacher. It may be that additional safeguarding measures would have to be put in place. Is the grade 5 class definately teenagers as in some dance schools that would be 11/12 year olds so you would need to be prepared for a minute ch less mature attitude than you are used to. In a class which is predominantly under 16s it'd be hassle and even if you have a portable DBS including working with children checks or were all ready an LA approved chaperone it might still cause issues ... there's a reason that Ventures went i nthe last revision of the Scouting programme and Guidings age sections got re aligned , ditto SJA youth provision ( non more 16 -25 units, must stay in a youth unit until 18 ) and the 'military'cadet forces ( rehashed and revised programme to allow the 18- 21 SNCOs and introduction of 'Instructor cadet' classification to stay on until old enough to Commission gpB or VRT or become adult CFAV SNCO . also world of hassle in training over 'hands on corrections' etc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Well a couple of years ago I attended a class where there were some youngish teenagers 13/14 in a grade 5 class because although I attended the adult section of this school for another grade 5 class I wanted to do an extra class at the time and the other grade 5 class was at a slightly earlier time and with some younger students in it ....plus some older teens. In fact when I first walked into this class imagine my surprise(horror) when a little voice piped up "hello Miss Morris" and there was an ex student of mine( I'd just retired at the time so no longer worked at her school). The thing is because I had been a teacher recently at the time I did happen to have a police check thing( can't remember what it's called now) but I wasn't asked if I had one .....it didn't seem to be a problem. Maybe because the teacher had known me for over a year at the time I don't know but anyway all seemed well. It was probably more embarrassing for the 13 year old to be in the same class as an ex teacher than for me to be in the same class as her!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mummy twinkle toes Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Actually, it is the requirement of the teacher to have Dbs and safeguard. We often have 14-16 year olds visiting university and it is mine and my colleagues duty to keep them safe whilst there. The other students are all adults. Therefore, you should be fine as you are not responsible for them and unlikely to be left alone with them. My dd used to have an adult attend her class and there was never an issue. I would discuss with the teacher and try the class. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) Why would you need a dbs check? You're not supervising the class or being left with students or correcting them? Teens and adults Dance together in adult & grade classes in lots of places although ultimately it's up to the teacher. I agree check the age of the pupils as I think teens would be fine but it may be a bit more difficult if they are 10! Edited January 15, 2017 by Moomin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Why would you need a dbs check? You're not supervising the class or being left with students or correcting them? Teens and adults Dance together in adult & grade classes in lots of places although ultimately it's up to the teacher. I agree check the age of the pupils as I think teens would be fine but it may be a bit more difficult if they are 10! Why indeed? I used to sing in a choir whose age range spanned 7 to 80+ years. Everyone sang the same repertoire: the young choristers benefited greatly from working with experienced performers whilst at the same time they brought freshness and energy. It is too easy for people to be 'ghettoed (??) ' because of their age - especially older people, and it would be a sad day if we stopped adults and children from taking part in joint activities. There! I will get off my soap box now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Why would you need a dbs check? You're not supervising the class or being left with students or correcting them? Teens and adults Dance together in adult & grade classes in lots of places although ultimately it's up to the teacher. I agree check the age of the pupils as I think teens would be fine but it may be a bit more difficult if they are 10! You would have 'substantial unsupervised access' , the only 'safe' way an unchecked adultcan be left in a room witha group of children in that kind of settign is if they have a staff minder at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Why indeed? I used to sing in a choir whose age range spanned 7 to 80+ years. Everyone sang the same repertoire: the young choristers benefited greatly from working with experienced performers whilst at the same time they brought freshness and energy. It is too easy for people to be 'ghettoed (??) ' because of their age - especially older people, and it would be a sad day if we stopped adults and children from taking part in joint activities. There! I will get off my soap box now. No one is stopping it , however there needs to be safe systems of work in place and unfortunately, youth organisations, churches, schools and residential settings have been places where abuse takes place , and it;s second highest risk of abuse area after the home and familiy/ firends of the family . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 You would have 'substantial unsupervised access' , the only 'safe' way an unchecked adultcan be left in a room witha group of children in that kind of settign is if they have a staff minder at all times. Why would you have 'substantial unsupervised access'? There should be a teacher, with a DBS, present for the duration of the class. Back to the OP question. When my DS danced there was a mum who caught the bug but because of work couldn't attend the only day time adult classes. She joked for a few terms that she would join her dd in class and she did. Think she probably started around grade 4 and worked her way up. When we left the school she was still attending classes with the teacher's and her dd blessing. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Why would you have 'substantial unsupervised access'? There should be a teacher, with a DBS, present for the duration of the class. Back to the OP question. When my DS danced there was a mum who caught the bug but because of work couldn't attend the only day time adult classes. She joked for a few terms that she would join her dd in class and she did. Think she probably started around grade 4 and worked her way up. When we left the school she was still attending classes with the teacher's and her dd blessing. how much practititoner experience do you have safeguarding ? Anyone who has pointed out the difficulties has not said it's impossible , after all how many dance schools rely on parents / older siblings etc for chaperone duties at shows. There's only been one organisation that has decided youth work is 'too hard' and pulled out completely and that was the British Red Cross during their ' provisional wing of social services' phase ( I've been involved inthe management of voluneer activities for nearly 2 decades, and over a decade of that in specific leadership and management roles - as a volunteer myself) . I've also worked ( as a paid job) in Dementia care and similar concerns over vulnerability apply. What has to be considered is that it needs to be risk assessed and Safe Systems of Work SSoWs put in place - and part of that SSoW may be for the adult to be DBS checked / approved as a chaperone - although this is potentially a paper exercise , but maybe required to demonstrate due diligence - Similar policies apply for none 'warranted' / 'commissioned' but more than very occasional helpers in various of yhe youth organisations. peoplesaying that there will always be a teacher there - what's your setup ?- how many schools have the teacher as the sole member of staff at that time or teacher plus one other person doing reception duties ( who may actually be a YP themselves) even if multiple classes are running becasue the school is fortunate to have a venue with multiple spaces ... Dance and theatre is not immune from the issues that have arisen in other youth organisations or in youth sport as well as schools and care settings etc. Fortunately the sexist / or anti LGBTQ angle hasn't arisen - which may be a tribute to the standard of posters or it may be it simiply hasn't crossed the minds of those who have commented thus far. Edited January 16, 2017 by mph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 how much practititoner experience do you have safeguarding ? That's not exactly an answer to the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theother51 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 There are numerous reasons why a teacher may leave a group of older children (we are not talking pre-schoolers here) unsupervised. At the start of class they may begin to warm up alone, there might be visits to the toilet, the teacher may have to pop out to de ch something etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 That's not exactly an answer to the question. see my expanded answer that didn't get accidentially posted , it;s also pertinent to those saying ' it doesn't matter' ... what is the basis for their assertions . The presence of 'adults' as participants in 'youth' activities is sufficiently serious for all the uniformed youth organisations to revise their programmes and age ranges to take account of the difficulties and the law does not see a difference between the 'type' of adult present ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 There are numerous reasons why a teacher may leave a group of older children (we are not talking pre-schoolers here) unsupervised. At the start of class they may begin to warm up alone, there might be visits to the toilet, the teacher may have to pop out to de ch something etc etc. exactly , so claiming that the teacher is 'always present' is indicative of not havign thought something through ... what happens if a student becomes unwell etc etc ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Being 'in charge' and directing young people in the form of chaperoning/ helping/ supervising a very different to being a student on the same footing as them though and that is where the distinction lies for me. I have more open access to the children as a mum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theother51 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I used to work on reception for a children's drama group. One day they held a charity parents take part day. Extra safeguarding measures that were put in place were things like designated separate toilets for adult participants away from the children's. Extra DBS checked adults present in the building, the school owner did not teach any classes that day but was available as an extra person. So it's possible but not automatic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 The law does not require a dbs check. Children as young as 8 can go to a public swimming pool on their own with no supervision whatsoever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Being 'in charge' and directing young people in the form of chaperoning/ helping/ supervising a very different to being a student on the same footing as them though and that is where the distinction lies for me. I have more open access to the children as a mum You are attempting to create a distinction that does not exist in law. If that were the case explain why Scouting had to drop ventures (15 -25) and replace it with 14-18 and 18 plus, ditto Guiding age range revision and SJA dropping 16 -25 units and removing the option to transfer 'up' to adult volunteering at any age between 16 and 18 ( although the issue there was putting YP into the adult setting rather than the other way around ) ? Edited January 16, 2017 by mph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 The law does not require a dbs check. Children as young as 8 can go to a public swimming pool on their own with no supervision whatsoever. where is the substantial unsupervised access ? and although it seems to have upset a few - what is your practitioner experience with safeguarding ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Children are in a vulnerable position in a toilet though as they can be locked in alone, neither is the case in a classroom. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) where is the substantial unsupervised access ? and although it seems to have upset a few - what is your practitioner experience with safeguarding ? If they're there alone they're unsupervised the whole time? Ballet classes aren't actually a 'youth organisation'. It is a grade 5 class, to learn The grade 5!syllabus. I don't really want to give my resume on line but I know what the law around dbs certificates is agd more importantly as a parent I have to risk assess all the time. A group lesson with a teacher present with adults who have taken the time and effort to get up to grade 5 in that syllabus is not a high risk environment and my children are far more vulnerable at other times. By the time they are at grade 5 level I would hope I would have instilled enough common sense in to them to deal with a situation. I think it is always important to risk assess but only step in when necessary if the child is in a vulnerable situation Edited January 16, 2017 by Moomin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Children are in a vulnerable position in a toilet though as they can be locked in alone, neither is the case in a classroom. From this comment are we safe to assume you have no practitioner experience with safeguarding ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Lots as it happens. You need a DBS for certain jobs or voluntary work, for example working with children or vulnerable adults. The OP is doing neither. In a teaching class environment it remains the teachers responsibility to safeguard the children under her care. The teacher should be supervising the warm up as much as the rest of the class. With your thinking mph everyone who walks through the door of a shop, swimming pool, cinema where there will be minors needs a DBS. That's everyone of us then. With that I'm off to my adult dance class where I will speak to the two vulnerable adults who attend even though they and the others have no idea I have a current DBS. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theother51 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) That would be the parents choice to send them swimming unsupervised (& I would never send my 8 year old swimming unsupervised). But schools, dance schools & youth groups have to have safeguarding measures in progress. Grooming often takes place between an adult & a child where the child looks up to that adult as they might do a teacher or in cases where they have got to know & trust someone (as they might do a fellow class member. As a parent I may choose to send my 15 year old to a class where adults may also present such as the open ballet class she attends at our local leisure centre. But I may also choose not to send my more naive 12 year old into a similar situation. Edited January 16, 2017 by theother51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Grooming also takes place between children and between children and teens and between teens and vulnerable adults. Edited January 16, 2017 by Moomin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Lots as it happens. You need a DBS for certain jobs or voluntary work, for example working with children or vulnerable adults. The OP is doing neither. In a teaching class environment it remains the teachers responsibility to safeguard the children under her care. The teacher should be supervising the warm up as much as the rest of the class. With your thinking mph everyone who walks through the door of a shop, swimming pool, cinema where there will be minors needs a DBS. That's everyone of us then. With that I'm off to my adult dance class where I will speak to the two vulnerable adults who attend even though they and the others have no idea I have a current DBS. Typical overreaction from those who do not understand safeguarding, even if they work in regulated environments one of the worse safeguarding training sessions i have seen delivered was delivered by a social worker who works in children's services , who basically implied that anyone who wasn;t part of the youth leadership clique but wanted to work with YP was doing so solely on the basis of grooming ... The OP would have substantial unsupervised access, the adult attending the class also needs to consider the stuff around appropriateness of informatio nand contact details sharing . Don;t forget that in service focused volunteering YP may be volunteering alongside Adult volunteers and thatthe adult is a Participant in providing service as well ( there isn;t the provider / recipient split between the two volunters - therecipient is a third person) You are talking rubbish about the public spaces stuff , this strawman is often erected in such discussion , it does not change the fact that if an adult is participating in a YP activtiy on a regular basis ( or vice versa) proper risk assessment has to be put in place. The law views vulnerable adult protection slightly differenly from child protection, especially with regard to forming relationships - but if you know and understand how the Mental Capacity Act works you should appreciate that difference. Fundamentally with YP the law presumes not and they have to demionstrate competence ( see Gillick/ Fraser stuff re contraception etc or healthcare consents) , where with adults Mental capacity is assumed unless there is a reasonable suspicion ( for want of a better term) otherwise AND capacity assessments with regard to that issue are failed. the short answer to the OP question - it;s possible , but the teachers in question have to be happy with their SSoWs and risk assessments and that these would stand up to Ofsted/ Social Services / Police coming and picking at them if there was the slightest whisper of an issue . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Grooming also takes place between children and between children and teens and between teens and vulnerable adults. and the relevance of that observation to this discussion ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Glossary: Substantial Unsupervised Access (to children) Where an adult has regular or prolonged contact with children, or access to children’s accommodation which provides opportunity for such contact, without another adult responsible for the welfare and supervision of the children being present. No they don't as there is a qualified teacher present 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 And with MPH rude remarks I have decided to leave the forum. Thank you to those that have been supportive over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Jane, you have been a member of this forum for years. Please don't let one person's comments induce you to leave it! Entirely your decision, of course, but we would be sad to see you go. 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Seconded x 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Thirded. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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