University/Vocational training

[anondancer_15]

It sounds as though anon may need to do a lot of supplementation of dance to maintain fitness and develop for auditioning after? Could be expensive?

what do you mean by this?

 

if i were to audition unsuccessfully a second time, i would continue my degree where i am and maybe re-evaluate my career choices and go into something more community based or on a smaller scale as suggested above. i don't think there's anything wrong with that, i think that uni and this course is really good for opening minds to other dance careers which i'm very happy to consider and look into if i don't get into vocational (or even if i do) as of course my eventual goal is to work in the industry even if it's not performance based work! 

[Moomin]

If you can't be a dancer what is your back up plan?

[anondancer_15]

If you can't be a dancer what is your back up plan?

 

something else in the dance industry! i'm interested in choreography and know that can open up lots of opportunities, i'm also interested in dance development organisations and dance education

[Moomin]

So the degree would be useful for all of those? Seems like a good back up plan then and personally I do think you can be very committed to something even if it's not your first choice. If you ask people generally what their dream job is most don't say the one that they are actually doing, sometimes realities and practicalities get in the way! Personally if there are only 2 or 3 places that you want to audition I would give it a go as otherwise you will be thinking 'what if'. You could be one of the lucky ones or you may just have to accept that it's not your path. Either way there would be some closure and maybe it would be easier to commit?

[sarahw]

That's great anon - your degree helps with your plan B. Stay and audition if you want to - nothing to lose. I'm sure you'll be successful whichever path you pursue. You are very focused.

[Kate_N]

if i were to audition unsuccessfully a second time, i would continue my degree where i am and maybe re-evaluate my career choices and go into something more community based or on a smaller scale as suggested above.

 

I think you need to be prepared for the hard truth that - even for those undertaking conservatoire degrees at colleges such as The Place or Laban, for example - those graduates are unlikely to find full-time work in nationally-recognised contemporary companies (Richard Alston, Jasmin Vardimon, Rambert etc). Most of them will take on project-based work, supplemented by teaching, choreography, community-based dance work, and non-dance jobs to pay the rent. They'll also be travelling out of the UK for work - although post 2018 this will be so very much more difficult (I'd imagine politically very difficult in the years immediately post-Brexit). 

 

You might see what is at the moment "Plan B" for you, is actually quite useful, as other aspects of your degree - the contextual studies - will help you apply and land jobs via research & writing skills - particularly as even a contemporary dancer's career is relatively short. Most leave dance as dancers in mid-30s to 40-ish with still another 30-40 years of work ahead!

Edited October 27, 2016 by Kate_N

[anondancer_15]

Yeah I know the degree will be very useful in my back up ideas and even open up new things I hadn't thought of, so I guess by reauditioning I'll know for sure?? There's just so much to think about and consider haha!

[anondancer_15]

I think you need to be prepared for the hard truth that - even for those undertaking conservatoire degrees at colleges such as The Place or Laban, for example - those graduates are unlikely to find full-time work in nationally-recognised contemporary companies (Richard Alston, Jasmin Vardimon, Rambert etc). Most of them will take on project-based work, supplemented by teaching, choreography, community-based dance work, and non-dance jobs to pay the rent. They'll also be travelling out of the UK for work - although post 2018 this will be so very much more difficult (I'd imagine politically very difficult in the years immediately post-Brexit).

 

You might see what is at the moment "Plan B" for you, is actually quite useful, as other aspects of your degree - the contextual studies - will help you apply and land jobs via research & writing skills - particularly as even a contemporary dancer's career is relatively short. Most leave dance as dancers in mid-30s to 40-ish with still another 30-40 years of work ahead!

I completely understand that not everyone in vocational training goes into massive companies etc, just that they are much more likely to than uni grads! And again I have nothing against the other pathways and jobs and know it is a very tough industry but I am determined to be involved with it in some way even if it's not in the ways I originally planned/hoped.

[Kate_N]

That's wonderful - you're already developing the resilience which will be essential in your career. Part of the making of a career, though, is to balance your ultimate goals with the small, everyday steps towards them. So if you're unhappy with your current training, you need to take action each day to improve your situation. So I suppose it's thinking through things like what you can do each day to enhance the likelihood of being more successful in conservatoire auditions. Strength training? Pilates? Extra classes? And so on.

 

In tackling big projects, I use a basic project management technique. I work backwards from my main goal, and divide up my time and tasks appropriately, so I get something accomplished each day towards my goal. For me, it's large research projects and writing books. 80,000 words seems daunting, but not when you draft 500 words a day. So you could use that technique, but apply it to your physical training. A bit like those fitness apps that give you a schedule for building up to a long plank hold, or push ups, or running. Couch to 5k is brilliant for that, and has actually helped me with lots of other dance training ambitions.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Kate_N

[taxi4ballet]

Nothing ventured, noting gained - it is well worth you re-auditioning for the courses again, as you never know, and you still have your current place at uni as the default Plan B.

 

Have you been able to continue with your ballet training as well?

Edited October 27, 2016 by taxi4ballet

[anondancer_15]

Nothing ventured, noting gained - it is well worth you re-auditioning for the courses again, as you never know, and you still have your current place at uni as the default Plan B.

 

Have you been able to continue with your ballet training as well?

Ballet is pretty scarce currently!! I went to Graham fletchers class which was really good a couple of weeks ago but they're doing a show so can't join until the end of January. There's optional ballet on my course but I haven't been able to attend yet due to having other lectures, I'm also not sure on the standard of this but will be going next week to try it out! There's a couple of other local classes I'm yet to try as well. Failing all of that I'm gonna book out a studio and do my own ballet training I think!

[alison]

I don't think anybody has mentioned discussing things with your tutor yet, have they?  If you're not sure what you should best be doing with the rest of your time, some guidance at this still-early stage would be useful so you don't waste your resources.  As others have said, university is very different from school, and the apparent shortage of tuition time is a difficult thing to get to grips with - I read that a lot of students complain about not actually having much in the way of formal lectures/seminars.  Even back last century(!) when I did my degree, that was a problem: my English-Lit-major roommate only had 14 hours a week, whereas I had 21.  But we were both told that we should be looking to triple or quadruple that with our own study/work.  I guess something similar must still apply even if you're not doing an "academic" subject.

[anondancer_15]

i'm meeting with one of my old teachers to discuss everything next week and think that will be the most helpful thing, however i love that on here you get everyone's different opinions and advice from different viewpoints that i wouldn't have thought of before. 

 

i'm in two minds as to whether to discuss with tutors here as i get the impression they'd be more interested in keeping me on the course and not sure they'd consider it from the other side?

 

and yes the teaching hours at uni i think are ridiculous for the amount of money that the course costs! i have up to 20 hours a week but some of my friends doing more academic subjects are only in for a few hours 2 days a week! and yes we are expected to at least double that with independent study.

[Kate_N]

Hours of face to face teaching aren't the only things your fees pay for. University buildings, lighting, heating, computers, library, chairs, tables, books in the library. Journal subscriptions - some electronic databases cost in the region of tens of thousands per year for subscriptions. Bursaries for poorer students; subsidies to Student Unions/Guilds. Counselling, disability, and medical services. Disability support for students. Insurance. Admissions costs (yes, Open Days & auditions cost money), advertising, student support, administrative staff. Subsidy of sporting & other recreational facilities. Science labs & materials; dance studios, changing rooms, loo paper. 

 

For someone 'reading' an English degree, they really are reading - two to three days a week if they do all the work set. 

 

I could go on ...

 

Look at the annual tuition fee charged to non-EU students: that is closer to the real costs of keeping a university going.

 

No tutor I know wants to keep students in a course who don't want to be there. They see you dance each day, and would be in an ideal position to advise you about the standard of your work in these first few weeks, and where your strengths & weaknesses are as a dancer with aspirations to work in the industry.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Kate_N

[TYR]

I think this is a culture-gap thing. As a student you're asked to work out of class in two ways: first, you're given work to do that you'll have to check in. This could be a seminar presentation, an essay, a lab experiment. These have in common that one day, if you didn't do it, you miss a deadline and you get told.

 

You're also expected to work beyond that, though - to read into the literature of your subject, to care about new research, to hear from interesting people, to take an interest in other people's research. This doesn't have an immediate constraint, nobody is going to shout at you, but it's important, they can tell who's been reading/hacking/whatever, and it will show in your marks.

 

In my experience the dull students put more effort into the first. The brilliant ones put the compulsory stuff in a time box and made time for everything else.

 

Here's the gap, though. I don't think I get much benefit out of independent practice other than stretching. Obviously I can stick my hand on some structure and do tendus and pliés. But when I have the opportunity to crack a whole variation out of class I tend to be "....huh?" There's none of the tension or pace of a class. And of course, if I'm screwing up in some subtle way I probably won't know about it. On the other hand, if I was to re-read Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs or The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money I'm pretty sure I'd remind myself of something I forgot or notice something I missed the first (or fifth) time around.

 

I think there's a difference in the kind of learning involved. Pros have an angry BM. Sports people have a coach who leads training, and a conditioning coach who runs pure fitness training. Academics kind of expect you to work out of class...because you can, but I kind of think you need that structure?

[anondancer_15]

I think this is a culture-gap thing. As a student you're asked to work out of class in two ways: first, you're given work to do that you'll have to check in. This could be a seminar presentation, an essay, a lab experiment. These have in common that one day, if you didn't do it, you miss a deadline and you get told.

 

You're also expected to work beyond that, though - to read into the literature of your subject, to care about new research, to hear from interesting people, to take an interest in other people's research. This doesn't have an immediate constraint, nobody is going to shout at you, but it's important, they can tell who's been reading/hacking/whatever, and it will show in your marks.

 

In my experience the dull students put more effort into the first. The brilliant ones put the compulsory stuff in a time box and made time for everything else.

 

Here's the gap, though. I don't think I get much benefit out of independent practice other than stretching. Obviously I can stick my hand on some structure and do tendus and pliés. But when I have the opportunity to crack a whole variation out of class I tend to be "....huh?" There's none of the tension or pace of a class. And of course, if I'm screwing up in some subtle way I probably won't know about it. On the other hand, if I was to re-read Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs or The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money I'm pretty sure I'd remind myself of something I forgot or notice something I missed the first (or fifth) time around.

 

I think there's a difference in the kind of learning involved. Pros have an angry BM. Sports people have a coach who leads training, and a conditioning coach who runs pure fitness training. Academics kind of expect you to work out of class...because you can, but I kind of think you need that structure?

 

i completely agree! i'm more than happy to work independently outside of my set hours in lectures and technique classes etc, i'm genuinely interested in the subject and therefore don't find it a chore to go and find books and journals and documentaries about other things outside of what i'm being taught in lectures. i also understand the importance of leading self directed dance classes, to practise alone and be able to construct some kind of personal training, but it's definitely not the same as having someone else to set new exercises, to teach you new movement you'd not considered before, give personal corrections etc. 

[taxi4ballet]

For someone 'reading' an English degree, they really are reading

The thing is though, when you are studying an academic subject that's fine - you can spend all the time outside lectures in the library or studying independently.

 

However... for a course teaching a physical skill, then you would expect several hours a day of practical training with someone teaching you and correcting and improving your technique.

[sarahw]

I agree taxi and here we reach the crux of the situation. Many dance degrees at non vocational institutions appear to really be a mixture of dance, choreography and related studies with not a huge amount of technical work. It sort of corresponds to the discussions we've had about GCSE Dance....

Edited October 27, 2016 by sarahw

[anondancer_15]

I agree taxi and here we reach the crux of the situation. Many dance degrees at non vocational institutions appear to really be a mixture of dance, choreography and related studies with not a huge amount of technical work. It sort of corresponds to the discussions we've had about GCSE Dance....

It's funny you should bring that up I actually compared what I'm doing here to GCSE the other day ????

[Kate_N]

Many dance degrees at non vocational institutions appear to really be a mixture of dance, choreography and related studies with not a huge amount of technical work. 

 

 

But that is only a problem if you expect a university Dance degree to be the same as a conservatoire degree or diploma. I think that for you, anondancer, your fundamental issue is that you are tending to see your degree as second-best. It's not, it's just different, but if it isn't what you want, go out & audition for the conservatoires. If you don't get in, or get a call back again, then the hard fact is, you may have to reconsider how much you can pursue your original ambitions. But you have the knowledge that you are good enough to get into a very good Dance degree. 

 

And re independent work - our students are expected to do one formal timetabled 3 hour "self-directed" session per week (they are taught for 6 hours face to face in the same module, and this is half their workload), as well as other independent work. Those doing modules in choreography or making solo performance are expected to do this work independently, on their own.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

As a bit of a comparison I had a quick look at my husbands timetable. (He teaches at a college that offers both the trinity diploma & a degree)

 

On average the diploma students do around 4 hours of taught danceclasses per day (technique & repertoire)

 

The degree students on average have around 2 hours of taught dance classes per day plus academic/contextual lectures. However it is a MT degree not dance so done if those classes are acting/singing.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Picturesinthefirelight