Risk of going en pointe too early

[MAK]

Thought some members might be interested in this. I have a small DD who is a "very young" 12 and her teachers and I luckily are of the same view. It can be quite hard when the dc feels it's a sign of dance quality rather than physical readiness! Articles like this do help.

https://www.thestage.co.uk/news/2016/royal-academy-dance-alumni-warn-parents-en-pointe-young-children/

[taxi4ballet]

There was an article in The Times yesterday as well, and mentions on the RAD and Just Ballet Facebook pages.

[balletbean]

I read that earlier today. There is a video circulating FB by one of the many ballet sites. Stunning stage performance en pointe by an 8 year old!!!

 

My comment was that I didn't even know anyone could buy pointe shoes that small. And concerns for the childs feet development (bones/Ligaments) My other concern is that if a child was of that standard at 8 when did they actually start en pointe!  Needless to say this did not happen in the UK

 

 

Our local ballet supply store won't fit young children with their pointes. Being a smallish dancing community the owner knows most of them. 

 

Found the video, hopefully the link works:

 

https://www.facebook.com/293184324068780/videos/611735992213610/

Edited September 15, 2016 by balletbean

[MAK]

Oh my goodness, 8?!

[taxi4ballet]

Oh my goodness, 8?!

I've seen a few like that on Youtube, mostly overseas competition solos, that sort of thing.

[LinMM]

They always look all feet to me though!

 

I hate seeing young children doing advanced ballet variations though ....just as much as seeing children do too "adult" dances or sing"adult songs of which they can have no notion of what the song is really about.

[RuthE]

I hate seeing young children doing advanced ballet variations though ....just as much as seeing children do too "adult" dances or sing"adult songs of which they can have no notion of what the song is really about.

 

Prime example I remember of the singing equivalent - when Charlotte Church was 11 and her first album was released, with "In trutina" from Carmina Burana as one of the tracks.  I'm guessing SHE may not have paid much attention at that age beyond "it sounds pretty, it's a nice tune, and it's in Latin" but did NOBODY at Sony say "Hey, do you realise this is about a woman making the decision to have sex with a new partner, and it possibly isn't appropriate for an 11-year-old to be singing it?"

[along for the ride mum]

With regards to the video - I'll reserve judgement until I've seen her dance in another ten years and another 20 years, if she's still dancing, and living a healthy life then I'll happily say it's great and she's incredible

Edited September 15, 2016 by along for the ride mum

[LinMM]

You do usually find though that child prodigies often recede to more ordinariness when adult.

 

In fact Charlotte Church is a good example....extraordinary voice when very young but she hasn't really developed .....not that she should ...probably had enough by her twenties ....but often there will be burn out or others catch up to their skills and so they lose their 'cuteness' value.

 

I'm still interested to see what happens to Miko Fogerty in this respect as she is still so young.

[Guest]

Singing is a very good analogy. One of my children was recently told that she should take a year before starting work on her next vocal grade, because her voice needs to mature (she is 17). Glad she's seen it as an opportunity to sing some fun stuff.

[Ian Macmillan]

On ballet.co and in our first year or so here, 'Doing Dance" had regular contributions from a former dancer living in San Diego - and, as I recall, she was very hot on girls NOT going on pointe too early.  Type 'anjuli bai' into the Search box for this area of the Forum, scroll back a bit, and you'll find all the advice on this that's needed.  A quick look gave this for example:

 

http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/6149-beginning-pointe-tips/?p=81370

 

... and there's certainly more out there.

[annaliesey]

But surely the RAD are barking up the wrong tree? It's not always the parents or dc's that are the keen ones but dance teachers themselves keeping up with other dance teachers!

 

The RAD have set the minimum age for interfoundation exam at age 11 and it's widely known that teachers can put children in for exams under that age as exceptions!

 

They have also stipulated the recommended teaching hours are 150 hours so for children to take the exam not long after the minimum age (at an average of one X hourly class per week) they are starting at age 9.

 

Even the illustration of exams shows interfoundation starting after grade 3.

 

Out of all the children my dd comes into dance contact with ie; local school, CAT scheme, London drop in classes etc, most of these girls have all gone on pointe around age 10 or 11

 

I even heard that an RAD examiner had told our local dance teacher that the average age of girls taking interfoundation exam was age 16 yet when we visited the examiners dance school ourselves they were all considerably younger (I'm guessing from appearance 11-12)

 

Seems to be a bit of a trend to say one thing but do another

Edited September 15, 2016 by annaliesey

[Legseleven]

The pointe work in RAD intermediate foundation is minimal though and every student we have come across has said that they did what DD did, learning the pointe section on demi-pointe and only wearing pointe shoes and dancing it en pointe 2-3 months before their exam. Obviously some may not do that but that is our overwhelming experience of preparation for IF.

[MAK]

Legseleven, that's exactly the approach being taken for DD. To be fair, the majority of her dancing friends go onto pointe around the age of 11, but they have all been dancing since an early age, most have been an Associate since 8, and importantly have physical maturity and strength. Dd is learning the variations on demi-pointe and even though she is the only one in the class doing so, she is happy and trusts her teacher ????

[Legseleven]

That is great MAK. Your DD is obviously very mature and able to trust her teacher and to see that not every 11 or 12 year old is at the same stage of physical development. Once she is on pointe she will catch up very quickly because she will be physically ready to do so.

[balletbean]

At my DD dance studio all girls have had to have taken their RAD G4 before even starting IF. They then have to have taken IF lessons for at least 9 months if not longer as each student is assessed for ankle and feet strength over time BEFORE being given permission to buy their first pointes, it certainly makes them all work harder knowing it's not an automatic right of passage.  

To other local schools they appear behind but on closer inspection the girls technique and feet/ankles are stronger. 

[annaliesey]

That's the same for us. However when they get their pointe shoes there is the temptation to wear them at home as obviously they are so excited etc.

 

I just think if there really is such a difference between age 10 (as in case of my dd) and age 12 then the minimum age should reflect this as otherwise there are an awful lot of exceptions

[balletbean]

Annaliesey

 

I actually contacted RAD a few years back to ask them about their recommended ages per grade. As it was unclear whether that was age for exam or age to study the grade.

 

It does appear to be the age at the exam. So working backwards could mean some girls start IF (thus pointe) at a very young age. As I've mentioned on an earlier message, students from other schools (that have started too early) have come a cropper as the only dance supply shop in our area have turned some girls away that are too young for pointes!  It's a small dancing community and the shop owner appears to know everyone, he he no secrets here!

[Picturesinthefirelight]

My understanding was that the IF minimum age of 11 was meant to accommodate vocational school children in Year 7 who may have a birthday very late in the academic year so are not yet 12 when they take the exam.

 

But I guess that's not how a lot of teaches work it.

 

Dd spent a year doing all the IF stuff on Demi before being allowed en pointe. As she has an early in the academic year birthday she was almost 13.

[MAK]

I guess it's a decision that needs to be considered very carefully on a case by case basis. It's great to see from so many of the comments that many schools (luckily for us, this includes ours) take this approach. Dd may be taking it well but it took a while for her to accept the reasons and is why articles such as this can be really helpful as support. It's interesting to link this with another post on this forum about height and how on average the population is getting taller. Girls are developing/maturing physically earlier on average than in the past too (again, dd is an exception here!). I wonder whether this means the temptation for some girls to start pointe earlier is even stronger? Anyway, it's great that at least this stuff gets discussed as it helps me as a non-dancer learn a lot.

[Harwel]

I know my mum had one very strong, capable girl who she knew was ready for her IF at 10. She waited until she was 11 to put her in and she literally put all the point work on point one month before the exam as she'd learnt it on Demi. So as not to hold her up and to make sure the girl did not get bored waiting for the exam, she started learning the inter work along side her IF. She took IF at 11, inter at 12 and got distinction for both. Very capable, strong and with an incredibly quick brain. She ended up dancing in Cats and Starlight express.

[taxi4ballet]

The RAD have set the minimum age for interfoundation exam at age 11 and it's widely known that teachers can put children in for exams under that age as exceptions!

One of dd's previous teachers is an RAD examiner, and she told me that this used to be the case some time ago, but no longer.

Edited September 16, 2016 by taxi4ballet

[annaliesey]

Sorry Taxi but I know someone who did this at age 10 a few months ago

[taxi4ballet]

Sorry Taxi but I know someone who did this at age 10 a few months ago

Really? Good grief!!

[BlueLou]

I read a quote from some ballet dignitary (may have been Darcey Bussell??) which was along the lines of there being no point (excuse the pun) in ‘going up’ until you could actually do something worthwhile up there. In a similar vein, at a recent dance festival we attended the adjudicator was critical of girls in the age 13/14 section who had pointe shoes on but actually had very little pointe work in their routine. 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I don't know how they managed that then as the RAD regulations state that although during the transition period there were exceptions they will now only be granted if a candidate misses the age by a very small amount & if it's because they took exams previously before the 2011 policy changes.

 

So for IF a candidate has to be age 11 on 1st sept if taking the exam between Sept & Dec & 1st Jan if taking the exam between Jan - Aug

[balletbean]

Interesting Bluelou    

 

"a recent dance festival we attended the adjudicator was critical of girls in the age 13/14 section who had pointe shoes on but actually had very little pointe work in their routine". 

 

 

My DD took her IF just before her 14th Birthday. Happy with that and her result, I was just getting so concerned when talking to some 15yr olds at SS that were Adv 1 and some Adv 2. Thinking that my DD won't have enough time to get to that level before audition.  Reading other messages on this forum is reassuring.

 

Fortunately the local dance festival No One is permitted to be en pointe younger than 13 and then have to enter a specific class aimed at that age group only. The time limit for the class is reduced but the girls have to complete a full en pointe routine.  If they don't then they enter the other classical ballet solo class for their age. With the organiser being "old school" helps. 

[Pups_mum]

This is always going to be a tricky subject as development varies so much from person to person. I know girls who have been through puberty before they have left primary school and have pretty much stopped growing by 12 and others in whom those things haven't occurred until their mid or even late teens. Plus of course there are factors beyond skeletal maturity to consider - I have seen plenty of girls en Pointe who may well have the necessary skeletal maturity but who clearly lack the required core stability as an example. I'm sure there are multiple other factors to consider too. I do think some kind of consensus guidelines from the main dance organisations would be helpful but they would need to go beyond age. For starters, human nature being what it is there will always be a tendency for some to push the limits and start a bit before the recommended age, and I think it would potentially create even more pressure on teachers to start girls at the "magic age" even if not ready. I can imagine plenty of girls and their parents getting fixated on starting on the very day they turn 12 or whatever age was chosen. There would need to be more to it than that.

I think it's hard for the girls. As adults we can clearly see that there is no benefit to rushing but it's such a rite of passage for them - I can understand the desperation even though I don't agree with it!

My DD is 18 now and when she watches the "amazing 9 year old en Pointe" YouTube videos she rolls her eyes, says how bad it is for them and points out the deficiencies she can see in the technique due to their age. But when she was 9 herself she was in awe and thought it was all marvellous. Keeping little feet on the ground, both literally and metaphorically can be very hard for parents and teachers and I do think better education and guidance from the dance establishment would be a step in the right direction.

[LinMM]

Isn't there also now an age restriction on taking the Advanced one and two exams?

 

Am just trying to remember my friends DD ....I think she had to wait a few months in the end to take Adv 1 because she was too young I have a feeling it may be 14 for Adv1 but not really sure.

 

However if this is so then there is really no point in necessarily taking lower level exams like IF too early because they will have to wait later on anyway. Though I can see the value of having a nice long time to prepare for Adv 1 !!

[MLN]

DD does ISTD grades at her studio and once they enter grade 6 they are watched carefully to see when they are suitable to go onto pointe. DD went on after 6 weeks, age 12 (just) and  others wait 6 months. The teachers are careful to make sure they are strong enough regardless of age although I haven't seen anyone younger than 12 on pointe. Grade 6 had 30 min pointe lesson per week while anyone not on pointe does work on demi- pointe. This seems really sensible to me. 

At summer school this year many of the 12 yr old girls were regularly doing 2 hour pointe lessons which seems a big jump!

[Picturesinthefirelight]

You have to be 14 for Adv 1 & 15 for Adv 2

[ParentTaxi]

I also think it is difficult to hold to a 'UK norm' of 11/12/13 for pointe (none of the local festivals allow pointe work until the 13 year old classes, and it is not unusual to see demi-pointe - and for dancer on demi-pointe to be placed - up until 15 at least) when the norms overseas are so different.

 

I know of ex-pat families with dancing daughters who have attended and competed as part of dance schools in Eastern European countries where working on pointe at 9 was absolutely the norm, and where there were complaints when taking part in an international competition which followed the 'silly rule' of not allowing pointe below 13.

 

It seems to me obvious that this can lead to ambitious teachers, dancers and parents, seeing the success of overseas pupils in auditions for UK-based schools and companies, wanting to emulate more of their practices, including early pointe work.

[balletbean]

We then enter in the interesting part of the discussion/debate. 

 

Take grades early and pass with a high merit or low distinction or wait, not swayed by peer pressure and pass at a later stage with a high distinction? 

 

I am personally interested to know the marks students are being awarded. RAD only release details on Pass, Merit, Distinction %'s 

 

I feel that the marks are a clearer indication of the levels of other students rather than P,M,D as there are vast differences in the marks within those awards. 

 

Sorry, does that make any sense what so ever? I know what I mean but I'm not sure I've explained myself very well, in my haze of analgesia