People who just don't understand!

[Pups_mum]

I'm waiting with some degree of interest to see how support for my youngest's sporting aspirations goes when he transfers to secondary school next year. Or more to the point, to see how it differs to DD's treatment. I suspect it will be VERY different from observations I have made to date. The weekly school newsletter is always full of students' sporting achievements, whether in or out of school,and interestingly musical success gets a fair bit of press too. My middle child has featured a few times 're music exam and competition success, but DD's dancing was barely acknowledged, apart from as a potential "distraction" in the 7 years she was there. So sport is good. And music is good. But dance,with its combination of physicality and artistry is a distraction. Very strange - I've given up trying to understand!

[taxi4ballet]

I'm waiting with some degree of interest to see how support for my youngest's sporting aspirations goes when he transfers to secondary school next year. Or more to the point, to see how it differs to DD's treatment. I suspect it will be VERY different from observations I have made to date. The weekly school newsletter is always full of students' sporting achievements, whether in or out of school,and interestingly musical success gets a fair bit of press too. My middle child has featured a few times 're music exam and competition success, but DD's dancing was barely acknowledged, apart from as a potential "distraction" in the 7 years she was there. So sport is good. And music is good. But dance,with its combination of physicality and artistry is a distraction. Very strange - I've given up trying to understand!

Yes, we noticed this sort of bias in our school newsletter too. Plenty of sporting and musical achievements, whether in school or extra-curricular, but when it came to dance and drama, not a sausage. At dd's school there were several talented drama/MT students, but their roles in EastEnders or 6 months in a West End musical etc were never mentioned. From memory, the only time dd got a mention was when she and her friend ran a cake sale!

[ParentTaxi]

Dance has a reasonably high profile at the DC's secondary - one of the inter-House competitions is Dance (culminates in an evening show), the main Sports page has a paragraph about Dance, mentioning that quite a lot of pupils compete and perform locally and nationally in Dance (two big ISTD schools locally, both of which send pupils to the ballet Awards, Star Tap and Janet Cram), and it is a big feature of the annual school show (usually a musical-with-dancing, sometimes a play-with-music-and-dancing, but always with a large number of pure dancers taking part).

 

There is also some 'points' system (that I don't understand) in which pupils who compete at local, county, national level in sports get some points towards their award ... there was some discussion about it, and I think in the end DD (and the 3 others from the school who were there) got national points for getting to the finals of the ballet awards....

[Legseleven]

What a great system, ParentTaxi. Equating national level dance awards finals to national level sports is certainly fair and transparent, although I suspect it is harder to find an accepted dance equivalent to county level sports. I understand that there are different levels of festivals win some much more 'prestigious' than others so I assume it is more difficult to find a county sport level equivalent - although DD doesn't do festivals so I may be very wrong.

[Guest]

....schools just don't understand  - they just don't. So don't tell 'em! As long as homework is done well and done on time, attendance is good and grades are meeting targets, its really none of the schools business (IMHO) what their students do in their own time. I just smile and nod at parents evening and let them gather that dd wants to be a scientist just like her dear old mum. Then if she does get into full time training it will a lovely surprise for the staff lol.

[sarahw]

I'm going to stand up for non vocational schools! My dd's school was supportime to all pupils with any out of school hobbies etc. So they're not all bad. Quite rightly time off was dependent on working hard but that's fair enough! A state school - not sure if it matters which type....

Edited September 15, 2016 by sarahw

[balletbean]

Lovely idea mnemo but my DD school expect her to accompany me to these tutorial meetings. For the sake of a 10 mins meeting my DD won't miss any of her dancing lessons. And personally I don't blame her. 

[balletbean]

I'm going to stand up for non vocational schools! My dd's school was supportime to all pupils with any out of school hobbies etc. So they're not all bad. Quite rightly time off was dependent on working hard but that's fair enough! A state school - not sure if it matters which type....

Previously I would have agreed however this summer the Dance World Cup was held at home. Over 3000 dancers from across the world were competing and possibly a few on this forum. Local dancers struggled to be given permission for time off from school. Even though it was a week before the end of the summer term. But hey let a child win a medal against the rest of the world and we will quite happily promote the achievement and run big articles in the local newspaper and covered by all the media! Grrrrrr  

[taxi4ballet]

....schools just don't understand  - they just don't. So don't tell 'em! As long as homework is done well and done on time, attendance is good and grades are meeting targets, its really none of the schools business (IMHO) what their students do in their own time. I just smile and nod at parents evening and let them gather that dd wants to be a scientist just like her dear old mum. Then if she does get into full time training it will a lovely surprise for the staff lol.

The only issue there is the need for time off for auditions, so they do need to know one way or another really

[Colman]

I just wish my girlfriend would stop snapping at me for closing 5th or doing passé relévés in the kitchen while I'm cooking dinner. 

 

 

Well, you could try the wheeze of having everyone dance, but then the problem becomes getting space at the breakfast barre while the kettle boils.

[Vonrothbart]

There seems to be a preference of quantity on this thread, all well and good so long as the quality is there. Practising bad habits does more harm the more hours you put in, and future burn out could be a problem too, it's a fine line.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I have to say that time off would never be a problem at dds school. When dd was there in juniors she was allowed time off for performances no problem. Two 6th formers were allowed to do 2 months of panto. One of dds friends did a 3 month theatre run & a girl in ds's class regurlaly has time off for chess comps.

[Loulabelle]

There seems to be a preference of quantity on this thread, all well and good so long as the quality is there. Practising bad habits does more harm the more hours you put in, and future burn out could be a problem too, it's a fine line.

I have re read this thread and can't see any evidence of anyone preferring quantity over quality. That's not what this discussion is about.

[annaliesey]

....schools just don't understand - they just don't. So don't tell 'em! As long as homework is done well and done on time, attendance is good and grades are meeting targets, its really none of the schools business (IMHO) what their students do in their own time. I just smile and nod at parents evening and let them gather that dd wants to be a scientist just like her dear old mum. Then if she does get into full time training it will a lovely surprise for the staff lol.

I'm glad someone said this

 

I have a son doing A levels maths, physics, engineering at the same school as my dd a few years below him.

 

Clearly I have been a supportive and non-neglectful parent as far as my son is concerned because of his academic grades so why any teacher feels the need to sit on a pedestal giving out parenting & careers advice on a subject they are not expert in, is a bit misplaced in my view. Especially considering our school is not a good school.

 

Last term my Dd was removed from a class for "taking to long to find her hearing aids" and this week for "dancing" when she was just marking a time step having finished her geography work.

 

I just wish some teachers (not all!) would cut dc's and parents a bit of slack considering how hard they work and the sacrifices people make.

 

I don't think it's up to teachers to judge or attempt to measure how successful someone might be in their dancing career. It's not all about the prima roles, lead roles, fame or trophies. What about just making a living as a choreographer or making art?

 

I'm with you mnemo with just keeping quiet as much as possible and getting on with it. I find it very hard to bite my tongue at parents evening if the subject of dance comes up. The amount of teachers who know someone who knows someone who went to <insert name of voc school> who is now unfortunately <insert disappointment ie; injury/working at supermarket/eating disorder/retraining etc>. Do they really think they are the first people to ever point this out? I must have heard "back up plan" a zillion times!

 

I would actually argue that my year 8 dd is a lot more focused than a lot of her friends her age as she knows full well she needs 5 A*-C grade GCSE's to get into college and A's to try for theatre school scholarships. That's in addition to trying to get distinctions in her vocational ballet because of UCAS points.

Edited September 15, 2016 by annaliesey

[balletbean]

I'm glad someone said this

That's in addition to trying to get distinctions in her vocational ballet because of UCAS points.

Oh, I really wish I had remembered that about UCAS points when my DD Mentor told me that "ballet exams won't get ******** into Uni" 

 

I will next time. Thanks for the reminder 

Edited September 16, 2016 by balletbean

[ParentTaxi]

As long as homework is done well and done on time, attendance is good and grades are meeting targets, its really none of the schools business (IMHO) what their students do in their own time.

 

As someone who sits on both sides of the parents' evening tables, I would emphasise that I agree with this - it is when pupils are NOT doing their homework, grades are slipping, and the general attitude is 'I don't care about this school thing, because I'm going to be a .........' that the conversations become tricky. To be honest, the most common scenario is where grades, attendance, homework, attitude are not QUITE as good as they could be, and there are then the nuanced conversations about whether an improvement is achievable given the student's other commitments and ambitions.

 

I suppose what I'm saying is that it's not always black and white - not all pupils with ambitions in extra-curricular areas (including dance) are always achieving as they might be in school, but nor is it reasonable for school to assume that it is always the academics that must take priority. It's a discussion.

 

My understanding on UCAS points for dance exams is that while the exist, they are not often taken into account when universities make offers for academic courses. So it isn't the case that if a university offers AAB, and a student gets ABB but with UCAS points from dance exams, then the student gets in - nor that offers are lowered for applicants who already have UCAS points from dance exams. So yes, they have a nominal UCAS value, but not one that can be used very widely, IYSWIM?

[balletbean]

ParentTaxi, 

 

I understand but it might just make some teachers consider how or what they say in future. Which cannot be a bad thing. 

[aileen]

People overstate the usefulness of UCAS points from dance and music exams. The more highly ranked universities just ask for grades at A Level. Similarly, extra-curricular activities are given little weight for most courses and most universities. Lower offers will not be made and lower grades will not be accepted because the applicant has passed dance or music exams or has done extra-curricular activities eg CCF or DoE. The universities are looking for academic ability and a passion for the subject to be studied. In the case of highly competitive courses such as medicine and vet science some work experience is expected.

 

I'm with ParentTaxi - and I'm not a teacher. I think that there is a difficult balance to be reached between emphasising the importance of a child reaching his/her academic potential (because this is what is likely to give that child the most options) and supporting that child's aspirations to pursue a career as a performer, sportsman/woman etc. Some highly academic and motivated children can spend a great deal of time in the studio without it impacting on their academic grades but the vast majority can't and it seems reasonable to me that a responsible teacher would have a tactful discussion with the child and his/her parents about the balance to be struck between school work and his/her training in the field concerned. Let's not forget either that in most schools teachers are heavily scrutinised on the results that their own pupils achieve in public exams and that schools in turn are judged by Ofsted (and the general public) by their academic results.

[taxi4ballet]

If my dd had cut down on her dance in years 10 & 11, then yes, her GCSE marks would have been higher (she has acknowledged that herself). On the other hand, if she'd done that, she knows that she wouldn't have got into her vocational school, because she wouldn't have been at the right standard to be accepted. Swings and roundabouts.

 

Neither she nor I were interested in the potential impact that her GCSE grades had on her academic school's results or OFSTED reports.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Similar with my husband who got minimal GCSE's & A levels (the conservatoire he went to over 20 years ago accepted Grade 8 theory & practical in lieu of 1 A level).

 

But he is now earning a living teaching at diploma/degree level. His school careers advisor told him he should spend less time on music & perhaps consider a career working in a pot bank.

 

Good job he ignored them as the pottery industry is virtually non existent now.

[ParentTaxi]

Of course looking backwards from the point of view of someone who is now successful in their chosen field it is easy to say 'the school teachers were wrong' - many parents of boys with footballing ambitions will cite examples of successful footballers who have few academic qualifications as the reason why their son does not need to worry about such things. It's just harder to look forwards, to predict who those successful children will be, and who will be those who might in the end need their academic qualifications for a slightly different path. Thus many school teachers will tend to urge balance, to urge the need to be pragmatic, however much with our parental hats on we may want them to understand the primacy of our children's extra-curricular ambitions.

 

It is interesting in football that the good youth academies have a real focus on academics, and strong communications link to schools - to the extent that boys who have not completed homework or who do not have good reports from school are banned from training (DS was a member of one of these for a few years, and the first question of parents and boys on training nights was 'has he done his homework?', even at primary age. If the answer was no, the boy was sent inside to do the homework instead of training).

 

Teachers, in my experience, do absolutely understand that Ofsted grades and results are of no interest whatever to parents at the point when their child is taking GCSEs / A-levels (as even when those grades and reports may have been of relevance when the parents chose the school at 11, once in the school they no longer seem to have an impact on parents or pupils). However, it is all part of wanting each party to understand the other party's point of view, isn't it? As a parent, you want the school to understand that your child's ambition is to be a dancer, and thus an impact on grades is a 'reasonable consequence' of this, which you are entirely prepared for. As a teacher, you might want a parent to understand that as a consequence of the school's failure to get your child to their target grades, the school's Ofsted grading and the teacher's whole experience in that school may suffer (working in a school that requires Improvement or is in special measures is hugely different to one that is safely Good or Outstanding), and thus your child's relatively low grades ARE of importance to the teacher. It is all part of an informed and nuanced discussion.

[Vonrothbart]

I have re read this thread and can't see any evidence of anyone preferring quantity over quality. That's not what this discussion is about.

Yeah I agree, my post seems to have ended up on the wrong thread somehow. My apologies.

[balletbean]

Being a slightly older now with the experience of having out 2 children through the educational system with 2 more in reserve I totally agree with what you say ParentTaxi. 

 

I have always tried to instill in all of them the importance of a sound academic education, whatever their career paths take them. 

 

I try to put into a context that they understand in practical terms;- 

 

Geography - When you are offered a contract overseas you will know where you are going!

Biology - Everyone needs to know about their own body, it will be with you a lifetime!

History - Use your skills to research sport, ballet, arts. It's not all Kings and Queens of England. 

English - You need to read a contract or fill in a visa application, mortgage, bank loans. 

Maths - The bane of most students.  To work out your wages/salary. Work out a bargain in the sale and the biggest lesson of all using your maths to budget when you are a dancer on a low budget. 

 

This way teachers are showing respect to those that are excelling at their 'hobbies' as many would class these activities but also enforcing the rule of reasons for a sound academic education without using the tried and tested "won't get you into uni" phrase as if that was the only bench mark as a sign of success in life. 

 

Education then remains a partnership between schools, students and parents, rather than parents and students having to keep their 'hobbies' a secret for fear of schools making life awkward when seeking time off for exams, festivals, auditions and possibly ridiculing/demeaning their talents even in front of their peers in the classroom. Teachers need to move with the times as career opportunities change. Gone are the days that it was either uni or working in a bank and that was it.

 

Strange thing is that they don't seem to think of is that if it wasn't for all those 'hobbies' there would be no Theatre, Opera, Ballet, TV, Movies or the need for Premiership Football season tickets that they all love.  

 

Morning rant over, phew, and now going to get off my soap box and have a cuppa 

[Guest]

....schools just don't understand  - they just don't. So don't tell 'em! As long as homework is done well and done on time, attendance is good and grades are meeting targets, its really none of the schools business (IMHO) what their students do in their own time. I just smile and nod at parents evening and let them gather that dd wants to be a scientist just like her dear old mum. Then if she does get into full time training it will a lovely surprise for the staff lol.

Just to build on my earlier ramblings - a lot of the bristling exhibited by teachers about how time is spent outside of school appears to be triggered by the word 'dance'. Presumably because its seen as silly, and trivial (by other people). I have never yet had my musical child criticised for spending too much time on it (she plays 3 instruments and is in 2 choirs, an orchestra and a string quartet) nor have her grades ever been called into question ("I suppose you've been spending your evenings playing scales and arpeggios again..." - doesn't happen. Similarly we know girls who swim, or row at competitive level and the school are quite happy to brag that they train 2-3 hours a day, every day. Perceived impact on school work appears to be based more on what you do than how long you spend doing it.

[taxi4ballet]

Teachers, in my experience, do absolutely understand that Ofsted grades and results are of no interest whatever to parents at the point when their child is taking GCSEs / A-levels (as even when those grades and reports may have been of relevance when the parents chose the school at 11...

 

...As a teacher, you might want a parent to understand that as a consequence of the school's failure to get your child to their target grades, the school's Ofsted grading and the teacher's whole experience in that school may suffer (working in a school that requires Improvement or is in special measures is hugely different to one that is safely Good or Outstanding), and thus your child's relatively low grades ARE of importance to the teacher. It is all part of an informed and nuanced discussion.

In our case, our choice of school was based solely on the number of yards' walk to the school gate!

 

The issue of not achieving target grades was not a problem in our case thankfully, but even if it had been, then our concern as parents would have been solely our dc's progress.

[ParentTaxi]

mnemo, that's interesting. Non-dancing DS is sporting and musical, DD obviously dances - I have noticed no difference in the way that they are treated in terms of the approach to their other commitments by their teachers (DS is treated slightly differently because he chooses to be more open about his 'other life', but whenever I have had to share details of outside school commitments about either of them, the school's approach has been absolutely even-handed).

 

It may just be that, because of the size of the local dance schools and the fact that their main point of transfer to full-time dance is to dance college at 18, the school is used to having quite a number of 'serious but non-vocational dancers' on its books at any one time. DD did point out to me at the time that there probably weren't all that many standard state comprehensives that regularly have 5+ students in the national ballet award finals, for example.

 

I don't feel that I've explained myself well about the concern of school re grades thing. I'm not saying that parents SHOULD care about how their child's grades affect the school as a whole, because of course our focus as parents is on our child. However, in all discussions and negotiations, it is always useful to know and understand the motivations, concerns and values of the person or organisation you are negotiating / discussing with, otherwise it ends up as mutual incomprehension and can end up in unnecessary antagonism.

[drdance]

 

Education then remains a partnership between schools, students and parents, rather than parents and students having to keep their 'hobbies' a secret for fear of schools making life awkward when seeking time off for exams, festivals, auditions and possibly ridiculing/demeaning their talents even in front of their peers in the classroom. Teachers need to move with the times as career opportunities change. Gone are the days that it was either uni or working in a bank and that was it.

 

Strange thing is that they don't seem to think of is that if it wasn't for all those 'hobbies' there would be no Theatre, Opera, Ballet, TV, Movies or the need for Premiership Football season tickets that they all love.  

 

Morning rant over, phew, and now going to get off my soap box and have a cuppa 

 

Please don't think that this is all down to teachers. These 'hobbies' are devalued by the government, who put pressure on School leaders, who then put pressure on the teachers. Most teachers are genuinely interested in the children in front of them. 

[ballettaxi]

I'm waiting with some degree of interest to see how support for my youngest's sporting aspirations goes when he transfers to secondary school next year. Or more to the point, to see how it differs to DD's treatment. I suspect it will be VERY different from observations I have made to date. The weekly school newsletter is always full of students' sporting achievements, whether in or out of school,and interestingly musical success gets a fair bit of press too. My middle child has featured a few times 're music exam and competition success, but DD's dancing was barely acknowledged, apart from as a potential "distraction" in the 7 years she was there. So sport is good. And music is good. But dance,with its combination of physicality and artistry is a distraction. Very strange - I've given up trying to understand!

 

Oh Pups_mum I know exactly how you feel and I experienced this firsthand this year.

 

My DD is now in 6th year and my sports mad son started 1st year at the same secondary school this August.  He has joined a 'specialist' stream focusing on Basketball, which equates to 0730 pre-school conditioning sessions 2 days per week, one extra Basketball skills PE session within his timetable and 2 hours after school on 2 days of the week training sessions.  Alongside this the school has in place a Homework club on a Friday, once classes for the day complete, where one teacher from each curriculum subject will be available in the school Library to assist the children with their homework to allow them to get their homework completed to allow for weekend matches and then give them some free time.  It's to reward them for their commitment during the school week by enabling them to have fun at the weekends.  It's a great system and it's been working for a number of years now with huge success - some of the children in this stream have attained some of the highest exam scores at National Exam levels.

 

When I attended the Parent Induction meeting in June I pointed out to the assembled group that I'd be very interested to see first hand what level of support the school was capable of providing to these children, given the fact that I'd had to fight tooth and nail for my DD to get an 'approved absence' agreed each time she was sitting her vocational exams.  Having to meet with her HT personally to advise her that DD wasn't wasting her time, and asking her if she knew of any other children in 2nd year who had already achieved UCAS points (yes, okay that was maybe a bit cheeky, but I was hugely frustrated at the time).

 

What followed was a real surprise to me in that the Head of PE approached my daughter when she returned to school to ask her about her 'dancing'.  DD told her, at length, everything that she does, what levels she is at in the various genres and what schools she's hoping to audition for this year.  To say the Head of PE was surprised is probably an understatement.

 

Now, 4 weeks into the new term, DD is now a Youth Ambassador for her school, she has an after school club in place to teach 'basics' to some of the younger pupils (hugely oversubscribed with a waiting list!) and has set up a whole school recognition scheme for all those children whose achievements would otherwise have been missed, as they don't sit in the world of sport or music.

 

The statement I loved when she shared a conversation with me was, that the Head of PE stated 'I can't believe we've missed you all these years - you've been here under our noses and we didn't know anything about what you could do.  We've really been idiots for not recognising this sooner.'

 

Yes, I'm tempted to send in a letter saying 'I told you so' - but I don't think I'll bother, I'll just smile smugly whenever I'm at school meetings.

 

(Apologies for the long post)

[AliKat]

Hello all.  I can really relate to so many of the comments on this thread.  At DDs school there seems to be the same high regard for Sports (including gymnastics) and music but little regard for dance.  DD has at times spoken to both PE teachers and form tutors about her dancing activities/commitments (which are substantial) outside of school but no particular interest has been shown by them.  We had a meeting with her head teacher recently to ask for permission in advance of potential auditions for vocational school.  At last we have come across someone who does understand!  He was brilliant and has organized things so that DD has every Friday afternoon as free study/revision time at school (instead of PE)and he has also written a wonderful reference for her.  I felt very emotional when I read what he had written particularly his statement about her being very humble and unassuming given her talent. I wish we had been to see him sooner.

[sarahw]

????????????????

[balletbean]

Please don't think that this is all down to teachers. These 'hobbies' are devalued by the government, who put pressure on School leaders, who then put pressure on the teachers. Most teachers are genuinely interested in the children in front of them. 

 I understand your comment and appreciate the pressure that teachers are under but the children do not engage with the Government they have face to face contact with the teachers. It's the teachers that can have a detrimental affect on the children if their talents out of the class room are not recognised, embraced and celebrated. 

[balletbean]

 He was brilliant and has organized things so that DD has every Friday afternoon as free study/revision time at school (instead of PE)and he has also written a wonderful reference for her.  I felt very emotional when I read what he had written particularly his statement about her being very humble and unassuming given her talent. I wish we had been to see him sooner.

That is amazing. What a fantastic school. Well done on finding such a supportive Head Teacher. Now that is certainly a "good practice" that the Government could embrace and promote across the country. 

[Legseleven]

Do you think that possibly teachers often genuinely don't realise the level at which students are dancing, the fitness levels elite ballet dancers achieve and the hours of dedication they put in every week? There is definitely a view that dance is somehow a fun, pretty activity for little girls (I know boys dance too, but for the majority of folk it's a 'nice' activity for little girls once a week) who like to twirl around wearing pink glittery stuff, possibly because many children who dance don't continue much beyond that early phase. I have always found that those who actually ask what is involved with dancing at a vocational exam level are absolutely amazed at what it requires; those friends of DD's or family members who have watched a class have literally been speechless.

 

I suspect that a student who doesn't take exams and can't therefore advise teachers of their current level of qualification (and suggest that teachers look at the RAD/ISTD/BBO/IDTA etc websites to see the equivalent level of qualifications re UCAS points etc) might have a harder time getting their dance taken seriously, simply because teachers understand the concept of exam qualifications. AliKat and ballettaxi, your DDs' teachers sound amazing - well done to them for listening and acknowledging their dance achievements!